Cheap(er) analog equipment for mastering?

[Suade]

Hi. I'm wondering if anybody out there has found any cheaper analog gear useful for mastering alongside their top-spec equipment?

I've just come across a Focusrite Compounder that was forgotten in a cupboard here and was thinking about hooking it up to see if it might have some aspect to its sound that would be useful for odd jobs. This got me thinking about whether there might be any use for some of the less well-thought-of gear that is available second-hand. I know many House producers love the Alesis 3630 and they come up for sale in classifieds so cheaply I've almost been tempted to buy one just to hear what it sounds like. Obviously this sort of thing moves away from the ideal of transparency that we like for mastering but there are also times when coloration has benefits so I thought I'd ask.

I know there was a similar previous thread about EQ but it's been a few years now - any thoughts?

[strdsk]

The real answer to this question is...yes. But most mastering engineers are gonna' be afraid to say that in public. So I'll be the first. A method often used in mastering (and in many forms of audio sweetening for that matter) is to purposely introduce small amounts of distortion into a stereo mix. That is...even order...a la tube...distortion. I have a "cheaper" tube pre that has been heavily modified that I sometimes use for that purpose. It doesn't work all of the time on all mixes, but yes...it was affordable and has outshined many top end pieces in many a pro shoot out.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Suade

Hi. I'm wondering if anybody out there has found any cheaper analog gear useful for mastering alongside their top-spec equipment?

I've just come across a Focusrite Compounder that was forgotten in a cupboard here and was thinking about hooking it up to see if it might have some aspect to its sound that would be useful for odd jobs. This got me thinking about whether there might be any use for some of the less well-thought-of gear that is available second-hand. I know many House producers love the Alesis 3630 and they come up for sale in classifieds so cheaply I've almost been tempted to buy one just to hear what it sounds like. Obviously this sort of thing moves away from the ideal of transparency that we like for mastering but there are also times when coloration has benefits so I thought I'd ask.

I know there was a similar previous thread about EQ but it's been a few years now - any thoughts?

Mick Hinton makes very good quality, low priced products that MEs use(one of his products was made specifically for some ME--and btw it isnt a mic amp...the url is parsed wrong for some reason??..anyway, the link takes you to the right place)

D.A.V. electronics - The Broadhurst Gardens No. 2 mk II Mic Amp

[PBM]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

Mick Hinton makes very good quality, low priced products that MEs use(one of his products was made specifically for some ME--and btw it isnt a mic amp...the url is parsed wrong for some reason??..anyway, the link takes you to the right place)

D.A.V. electronics - The Broadhurst Gardens No. 2 mk II Mic Amp

Except that the OP was asking specifically about cheap gear that might induce a nice colour whereas Mick's stuff is inexpensive gear which is wonderfully clean.

Eric

[jackthebear]

Looking at second-hand gear is also an option where you could score some of the better analogue boxes at a price point that may not be as prohibitive as you thought.....you'd be amazed at what you'll find if you look long and hard enough......and the funny thing is opportunities come when you least expect them......

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by jackthebear

...and the funny thing is opportunities come when you least expect them......

Much like love, or the spanish inquisition.

[PBM]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

Much like love, or the spanish inquisition.

No-one *ever* expects those ...

And some react the same way to both: fear and surprise ...

[wado1942]

I know many House producers love the Alesis 3630 and they come up for sale in classifieds so cheaply I've almost been tempted to buy one just to hear what it sounds like.

Hey, disconnect the gate and its level detector and you have a usable tool. It loads the signal in funny ways that make it really dirty. Granted, it's still no champ but, it can be a usable tool. I don't have one, but I do have a Behringer Autocom that's almost the exact same circuit.

As for cheap stuff I use in mastering, I occasionally use an Orban 622. I also sometimes use a pair of FMR AUDIO's RNC 1773s in parallel.

[PatrikT]

Originally Posted by strdsk

It doesn't work all of the time on all mixes, but yes...it was affordable and has outshined many top end pieces in many a pro shoot out.

If you actually refer to "shine", there's a potential problem.


Best Regards
Patrik

[Transistor]

Originally Posted by PBM

No-one *ever* expects those ...

Oh no, not the cushions!

r,
j,

[Dave Rose]

Originally Posted by jackthebear

Looking at second-hand gear is also an option where you could score some of the better analogue boxes at a price point that may not be as prohibitive as you thought.....you'd be amazed at what you'll find if you look long and hard enough......and the funny thing is opportunities come when you least expect them......

Speaking of 2nd hand gear, where do you look? Obviously eBay, word of mouth, ex demo units from large stores...but wondering if anyone knows any little goldmines here in the Uk (apologies for straying off topic a little!)

[DominicWyeth]

Originally Posted by jackthebear

and the funny thing is opportunities come when you least expect them......

and always when my cash flow 'aint so great...darn I had a bargain chance this week - anyone want to go halves in bank robbery charge

[PBM]

Originally Posted by gearslag

Speaking of 2nd hand gear, where do you look? Obviously eBay, word of mouth, ex demo units from large stores...but wondering if anyone knows any little goldmines here in the Uk (apologies for straying off topic a little!)

Malcolm here is good: mjQ Sales - Recording Studio Property and Equipment Brokers

Cheers,

Eric

[Joe_caithness]

One good way of doing it is what I do, find someone to build you stuff. Ok the guarantee works differently, you can't buy it from a shop and it won't look cool on your website, but I'm doing well off it right now!

[Dave Rose]

Originally Posted by PBM

Malcolm here is good: mjQ Sales - Recording Studio Property and Equipment Brokers

Cheers,

Eric

Nice one

[dietrich10]

Issue always with much 'cheap' gear is ruining the original file or losing too much off the freq spectrum.
Adding color at the expense of ruining overall depth etc.
Also-if you are normally doing all ITB mastering and want to start by adding first a color piece-make sure your DA is not doing the damage as well

most of the time a quality eq plugin for overall eq work is better than a $200 piece of hardware. that being said plenty of 'cheap' options to add color into a clean chain

[philip]

I've tried low cost vintage equipment such as Orban, Telefunken and EMT for mastering and yes it's fun but for mastering? honestly no.

That said I have owned and still owns some fantastic equipment as Focusrite RED and Manley and they are fun, but for mastering? honestly no.

I haven't found a single piece of outboard that doesn't degrade the quality. I'm sure there is such outboard but why bother when you get amazing tools in your DAW for free?

IMHO

[strdsk]

Originally Posted by PatrikT

If you actually refer to "shine", there's a potential problem.


Best Regards
Patrik

Patrik...a "potential problem"? Explain please...

[strdsk]

Gaze...are you implying that there's something wrong with modding gear to perform better, do you doubt that mods do in fact make a difference, or are you saying that ALL who mod gear are wasting their time and trying only to be hip and fashionable? Either way...you'd be very wrong...

Originally Posted by the gaze

Well, as long as its "heavily modified" you're still cool.

[strdsk]

Gaze...how did you intend I take your original comment? No...I "haven't noticed the heavily modified catchphrase / qualifier". I pay no attention to, and couldn't care less, how others view themselves or the caliber of their gear. I know what I, and my gear, is capable and not capable of...it's all I really care about to be honest. I simply responded to a question on a public forum with a sincere answer...nothing more...nothing less. I didn't feel the need to inject my response with hidden or otherwise cryptic semantics...sorry.

Originally Posted by the gaze

Are you serious?

I don't think I was implying what you seem to be implying.

Are you implying that I was somehow engaged in a mis-implication?

But, really, you haven't noticed the "heavily modified" catchphrase / qualifier?

[jackthebear]

Originally Posted by philip

I've tried low cost vintage equipment such as Orban, Telefunken and EMT for mastering and yes it's fun but for mastering? honestly no.

That said I have owned and still owns some fantastic equipment as Focusrite RED and Manley and they are fun, but for mastering? honestly no.

I haven't found a single piece of outboard that doesn't degrade the quality. I'm sure there is such outboard but why bother when you get amazing tools in your DAW for free?

IMHO

Hey Patrick......which Manley unit(s) do you own that don't make the grade?

I don't think you'll ever find a piece of outboard that doesn't "degrade" to some extent........I guess it also depends on your interpretation.......

Don't the amazing free tools in your DAW also "degrade"?

If not I'd be interested to know which ones they are......

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by gearslag

Speaking of 2nd hand gear, where do you look?

I've seen Gearslutz has a used gear section.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...r-classifieds/

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by jackthebear

....which Manley unit(s).

I saw the Vari Mu and Massive Passive listed on his site. Strange that they wouldn't see use.

[jackthebear]

And the dreaded e-Bay has been known to spew up some bargains.......

[manman]

Try to avoid using cheap mastering equipment.

There are reasons why to avoid cheap:

1. cheap converters smear image and clarity
2. cheap compressors add smear image and does not make music sound better
3. cheap equalizers add harsheness and may introduce extra noise
4. cheap stereo m-s mode may use cheap opamps so your quality is degraded.
5. cheap equipment usually have cheap opamps anyway that will smear image and make your music less clear

[strdsk]

He was asking specifically about analog gear. The old saying is "Use your ears. If it sounds right...it is." The mods I was referring to earlier addresses upgrading opamps, caps, trannies, etc.

[jackthebear]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

I saw the Vari Mu and Massive Passive listed on his site. Strange that they wouldn't see use.

Maybe I misread or misunderstood what he was saying?????

[Shy]

Originally Posted by manman

Try to avoid using cheap mastering equipment.

There are reasons why to avoid cheap:

1. cheap converters smear image and clarity
2. cheap compressors add smear image and does not make music sound better
3. cheap equalizers add harsheness and may introduce extra noise
4. cheap stereo m-s mode may use cheap opamps so your quality is degraded.
5. cheap equipment usually have cheap opamps anyway that will smear image and make your music less clear

There's some good points there but no thanks, I'll continue to use some cheap equipment, because it sounds ****ing good.

[sadboy]

Honestly dude, if you're looking for a cheap analog stuff then you better stick to Vst plugin's because simply if they are not gonna give ya the same results as those cheap analogs, they just might be even better with less Aux connections headaches......

[Nordenstam]

Originally Posted by philip

That said I have owned and still owns some fantastic equipment as Focusrite RED and Manley and they are fun, but for mastering? honestly no.

I haven't found a single piece of outboard that doesn't degrade the quality. I'm sure there is such outboard but why bother when you get amazing tools in your DAW for free?

That's a refreshing viewpoint!

Originally Posted by jackthebear

I don't think you'll ever find a piece of outboard that doesn't "degrade" to some extent........I guess it also depends on your interpretation.......

Don't the amazing free tools in your DAW also "degrade"?

If not I'd be interested to know which ones they are......

Not Philip, but..: There's a few pieces of software that can be used to test plugins. The VSTanalyzer is handy but doesn't work on everything. Test tone .wavs from->to the RMAA software can deal with anything. Both are free. Additionally, I like to run a 19500Hz sine along with a lin sweep to check for distortion and aliasing artifacts in a spectrum view. RX gives excellent options for visualization.

There are very few inherently clean processes, like polarity reversal. Most of them aren't. It takes some searching and scrutinous testing to find the good plugs. They are out there! I aim to keep levels of artifacts at silly low, with some plugs giving near 24 bit performance with spurious free range in excess of 150 dB. Am one of the most ardent defenders of the human listening abilities! Even given every so much optimism, I just can't see how such low level distortion can be audible.

Do of course beware of artifacts that aren't obvious in typical measurements..


Best regards,

Andreas Nordenstam