Can you master with cheap monitors in an untreated room?

[Remeniz]

I'm asking this because I know of a few people that 'claim' to master their own music in their bedroom on cheap monitors.

Now i'm not a pro producer but one thing I will do is employ the skills of a proper ME with the right room, the right equipment and a great portfolio.

So my question still stands; "Can you master with cheap monitors in an untreated room?"

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by Remeniz

I'm asking this because I know of a few people that 'claim' to master their own music in their bedroom on cheap monitors.

Now i'm not a pro producer but one thing I will do is employ the skills of a proper ME with the right room, the right equipment and a great portfolio.

So my question still stands; "Can you master with cheap monitors in an untreated room?"

Sure you can. It's possible to achieve equal or even better results than a pro mastering house.

But this doesn't mean you can master professionally in that room.

If you're mastering your own music, you have time to make mistakes, check it on other systems, tweak, re-tweak or start again from scratch.

But as a pro ME you won't have that luxury, so the more accurate your monitoring / room, the quicker you'll come to the right decisions, or a least keep the amount of wrong decisions down to a bare minimum.

[jackthebear]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Sure you can. It's possible to achieve equal or even better results than a pro mastering house.

But this is different from mastering professionally in that room.

If you're mastering your own music, you have time to make mistakes, check it on other systems, tweak, re-tweak or start again from scratch.

But as a pro ME you won't have that luxury, so the more accurate your monitoring / room, the quicker you'll come to the right decisions, or a least keep the amount of wrong decisions down to a bare minimum.

Darius makes a very important distinction here.......and it's one worth noting.

[Remeniz]

Ok. So it's pretty much down to the time an ME has to do his/her thing.

It's probably down to his ME skills but when I listened to his work on my set up I had to turn it down after a few seconds, it fatigued my listening, and the mix was just squared off like hell!

I check my mixes on various audio equipment, laptops, mono TVs, midi systems. But I would still get an ME on the mix, once I think is sounds right, just to finish it off.

[Ruairi]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Sure you can. It's possible to achieve equal or even better results than a pro mastering house.

But this is different from mastering professionally in that room.

I know that Darius and jack both know this and I normally stay out of these threads but there is an another important distinction to be made here. One can process (eq, compress, whatever) in an untreated room in the way that a mastering engineer might but IMO you cannot master. Wrapped up in the definition of mastering (for me at least) is the concept of objectivity - never having heard the music before. This is the most valuable thing a mastering engineer can offer, followed by a great room and speakers followed lastly by the ability to process and hopefully do so tastily.

This has become all the more important of late as more work comes from home studios.

Cheers,
Ruairi

[RTR]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Sure you can. It's possible to achieve equal or even better results than a pro mastering house.

But this doesn't mean you can master professionally in that room.

If you're mastering your own music, you have time to make mistakes, check it on other systems, tweak, re-tweak or start again from scratch.

But as a pro ME you won't have that luxury, so the more accurate your monitoring / room, the quicker you'll come to the right decisions, or a least keep the amount of wrong decisions down to a bare minimum.

+1..I know my cheapish speakers very well, been working on them for many years, same for my room. but if you threw me into a different crap room with different crap speakers it would take a long time to learn them ! Plus I dont master, I just track and mix, I dont know if I could get a good master or not!

[jackthebear]

Originally Posted by Ruairi

I know that Darius and jack both know this and I normally stay out of these threads but there is an another important distinction to be made here. One can process (eq, compress, whatever) in an untreated room in the way that a mastering engineer might but IMO you cannot master. Wrapped up in the definition of mastering (for me at least) is the concept of objectivity - never having heard the music before. This is the most valuable thing a mastering engineer can offer, followed by a great room and speakers followed lastly by the ability to process and hopefully do so tastily.

This has become all the more important of late as more work comes from home studios.

Cheers,
Ruairi

Werd.......if I am asked to give one reason WHY I should master with an ME it's exactly as you stated Ruairi.......the 3rd party objective perspective that 100's of listens cannot give you....

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Remeniz

when I listened to his work on my set up I had to turn it down after a few seconds, it fatigued my listening, and the mix was just squared off like hell!

Communication.

Let the ME know your intentions before they get started.

If your listening back to his work of other peoples projects, chances are they requested him to shoot for stun.

If your listening back to his work on your own project and find it fatiguing, tell him to back off a little and that your intention is to have the music level up there, but do not want it to cross the threshold where it becomes hard on the ears in anyway.

[Remeniz]

He's never mastered my mixes, i'd go a proper ME for that, he masters his own work and comes to my house to check his mastering. I didn't like it.

But after explaining to him why I didn't like it he shrugged and said it sound great on his set up.

Afterwards I said back off the compressor/limiter on the output bus, T-Racks or Ozone that he uses, and go back to the mixing stages.

I mean, if it is possible to master in an untreated room with budget monitors and plugins then dang i'll give it a go. Otherwise i'll continue as I have been; mix and check on various audio equipment until it sounds great and then pass on to an ME for the final sprinkle of magic.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Remeniz

He's never mastered my mixes, i'd go a proper ME for that,

I would continue doing things as you are and realize that anyone who is in any way proficient at any craft has got that way through many years of work, experience, and proven results.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by Remeniz

"Can you master with cheap monitors in an untreated room?"

You can do anything you want, plenty of DIY plug-in "solutions" out there.

But taking it to a real professional ME is generally the better path to choose.

JT

[Remeniz]

Well. I've got enough information here to go on and that means i'll go get the job done properly.

Thanks guys.

[Gdupproductions]

check my specs below that,s what i make music with.And what do i do when im mixing a track and im not sure how something sounds ? i just export a 8 bar loop to usb stick, load it on my ps3 and listen to it on Tv...Yess therre is always a diffrence between home ''studio,s'' and studio,s with Ssl boards and 6 racks off hardware with a Treated Room and 2k studio monitors and main monitors (to just push it a bit over the top)....Anyhow why would you not be able to mix in a untreated room ?

[Remeniz]

I'm happy with my mixing and I check them on all sorts of audio equipment.

Mastering is a different process though and it's the mastering process I was asking about.

[Mr Illusive]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Sure you can. It's possible to achieve equal or even better results than a pro mastering house.

But this doesn't mean you can master professionally in that room.

If you're mastering your own music, you have time to make mistakes, check it on other systems, tweak, re-tweak or start again from scratch.

But as a pro ME you won't have that luxury, so the more accurate your monitoring / room, the quicker you'll come to the right decisions, or a least keep the amount of wrong decisions down to a bare minimum.

That is a very good point there.

[12ax7]

Well...

You can't roller skate in a buffalo herd.

[Red Mastering]

you can mix or 'master' in untreated room,
same like you can paint with closed eyes....

[Bubbagump]

Originally Posted by tresperros

you can mix or 'master' in untreated room,
same like you can paint with closed eyes....

AKA, sure you can... but it'll likely suck.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Remeniz

So my question still stands; "Can you master with cheap monitors in an untreated room?"

Can you make dinner with Spam, a can of beans and a campfire?

[Gdupproductions]

Lmfao..i gues this dude realy dident get the message yet

YouTube - Grandmaster Flash The Message HQ

[Musiclab]

sure you can and it will sound like it. This idea that you can get the same results as a real ME in a real room vs you in a poor monitoring environment with some plugs is a complete fantasy. I don't care how much time you have, there are not as many years in your life to get it close.

[kiopo]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

sure you can and it will sound like it. This idea that you can get the same results as a real ME in a real room vs you in a poor monitoring environment with some plugs is a complete fantasy. I don't care how much time you have, there are not as many years in your life to get it close.

I think that's exaggerating the point a little? I mean I worked in a largely untreated room a few years back... happened to be at one of the bigger studios in the UK. The room sounded incredible.

And since I've been moving around from place to place, I've found rooms that sound naturally great, and I can get great results from the mastering I've done there. I'm not sure whether you're imagining a guy in a bedroom with some Rokit 5s and a copy of Cubase, or simply any mastering situation in a room without the most expensive acoustic treatment and monitoring setup?

And are you mainly talking about the room and equipment, or commenting on the ME themselves? Because I don't see why someone who does it regularly in a good environment couldn't get close to a pro ME. Yeah, you miss the advantage of gorgeous sounding analogue gear, but you can still get great results.

And for what it's worth.. my experience with 'pro' MEs has been very disappointing so far. Not a comment applicable to anyone on this board.

[KyleDiSanto]

IMO, a pro engineer (verses amateur) might be able to get it close on a less than stellar system, but there's the experience factor in there that no monitoring system, low or high end can change.

[jackthebear]

Can I kill you with a butter knife? Probably......so long as I puncture your jugular......otherwise it will be agonizingly slow and messy......but if it's all I had at my disposal..... I'd make do.....

The moral to this? You can do whatever whenever so long as you either persist with it until you get the desired result or use good technique.

I have been astonished by the results people can get in rooms and setups that many wouldn't believe possible......all due to the fact that the operator just knew how to juice the most out of their situation.

[Tube World]

Originally Posted by Remeniz

I'm asking this because I know of a few people that 'claim' to master their own music in their bedroom on cheap monitors.

Now i'm not a pro producer but one thing I will do is employ the skills of a proper ME with the right room, the right equipment and a great portfolio.

So my question still stands; "Can you master with cheap monitors in an untreated room?"

My question to you is why would you want to master with crap speakers in a untreated room? The only people who do that are kids who are only doing demos for themselves and friends. Anyone who is serious about recording and having a qualtiy product wont do that. Now I will say that I master my own music with over $1,000 if acoustic treatment and using Focal Solos. But my recordings are demos for family and friends. I also record people who are want a cd of their music who dont have the money to go to a pro studio and are only doing it for fun. But the bass traps and panels are in my room and I have done several test on my room to treat known issues in it. With monitors like the Focals I am confident enough that the end result will sound good. But I know if it was professionally mastered the results would be better. But for releasing music that is a hobby my results are fine.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Tube World

But I know if it was professionally mastered the results would be better. But for releasing music that is a hobby my results are fine.

Not picking at you personally but this logic never made any sense to me. Why record at all if you're not pushing yourself to make the best thing you possibly can? Is the inner dialogue, "I'm just a mediocre artist, so a mediocre product is okay" ??? If that's the case why record at all?

Maybe you'll get more engineering gigs, or more playing opportunities with a better product? Impressing people is the name of the game. Why bother to work so hard on a recording to then get mediocre at the end? I mean, you're competing with the recorded history of music, and a hobby can become more if you're good.

Plus the personal satisfaction of knowing that you've done your best ... what's that worth?

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by Gdupproductions

check my specs below that,s what i make music with.And what do i do when im mixing a track and im not sure how something sounds ? i just export a 8 bar loop to usb stick, load it on my ps3 and listen to it on Tv...Yess therre is always a diffrence between home ''studio,s'' and studio,s with Ssl boards and 6 racks off hardware with a Treated Room and 2k studio monitors and main monitors (to just push it a bit over the top)....Anyhow why would you not be able to mix in a untreated room ?

It's probably best that you use that set-up, as a more expensive set of monitors in a treated room may reveal that the Reason sound engine isn't really up to par.

[Tube World]

Originally Posted by lucey

Not picking at you personally but this logic never made any sense to me. Why record at all if you're not pushing yourself to make the best thing you possibly can? Is the inner dialogue, "I'm just a mediocre artist, so a mediocre product is okay" ??? If that's the case why record at all?

Maybe you'll get more engineering gigs, or more playing opportunities with a better product? Impressing people is the name of the game. Why bother to work so hard on a recording to then get mediocre at the end? I mean, you're competing with the recorded history of music, and a hobby can become more if you're good.

Plus the personal satisfaction of knowing that you've done your best ... what's that worth?

Money is one reason.
Second, the results I am getting for a demo is very good. I have taken my 2 bus and mastered songs to mastering studios and they told me the songs were balanced and polished. Yes they would sound better with a Manley MU, Cranesong Ibis fine tuning things, but again my results everyone is happy with. That's all that really matters.
If you are not recording vocals at a pro studio and your just using BFD drums my theory is keep the signal chain all at the same level. I use Apogee converters and like I said my friends, and customers are happy with the results. If I was an artist. I would do my drums and vocals at a pro studio and guitar and bass tracks at my studio. After mixing the songs to a 2 bus, you my friend would master all the songs for me.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Remeniz

So my question still stands; "Can you master with cheap monitors in an untreated room?"

Yes. You can.

And your results will vary based on two factors:

1. How much needs to be done.
2. How much you do.

If nothing needs to be done and you don't mistakenly do anything, then the chances of getting quality results will rival the pros.

If much needs to be done and you do many things under undesirable conditions, then your chance of getting professional results is equal to a room full of monkeys with typewriters trying to create a novel. It can be done.

[jackthebear]

Originally Posted by Tube World

but again my results everyone is happy with. That's all that really matters.

Bingo!!! Couldn't have said it better myself....