noisy acetates in 2010

[friction909]

Hello,

I'm in the process of trying to get a 12" 33RPM album with 20 minute sides out. I now have test pressings. The reference acetates were rather noisy (crackle throughout the entire sides) and now my test pressings seem quite noisy in a similar crackling way.

Now, I know it's possible to cut and press very clean vinyl with minimal surface noise, I have many examples in my record collection. Most of my vinyl is from 1980 - 1986 before I transitioned over to CDs.

I'm beginning to wonder if the source of this crackling is the acetate itself? Are acetates in 2010 not up to the quality of acetates in the 1980s? Heck, I even have an acetate from 1998 from the first record I had pressed, and both the acetate and the final pressing have completely acceptable levels of surface noise.

So I'm a little frustrated by what I'm hearing with this album project. It seems like even splitting the album across four sides and increasing the level on the vinyl might help the S/N issue a bit, but the noise would still very much be there. My DJ Stanton GrooveMaster II is a little more forgiving of the crackling than my Hi-Fi Pickering XSV-4000, but I would prefer, in an ideal world, to have far less crackling.

Are others finding acetates today to be noisier than they have been in the past?

I'm assuming the acetate is the main source of my noise problem, not the plating or pressing. If others in 2010 have clean acetates in 2010, then maybe I can start looking at the plating or pressing as a source of noise, but based on my noisy reference, I'm inclined to blame the acetate.

Please let me know if you have clean acetates in 2010 and what brand they are. Heck, give me a batch # if you've got it. This information would be for the 14" acetates, the ones that matter, not the 12" references.

My mastering engineer did a great job with the transfer, I just wish it could have been transferred to something much cleaner.

Thanks!

Robert

[Cellotron]

A reference acetate is not used in the production process to make pressed records at all - so the surface noise present on an acetate has nothing to do whatsoever with the surface noise present on a test record. As far as lacquer masters go - there are indeed potential for defects that can be transferred to the final product - but these are usually problems such as distortion of the program. In general the majority of surface noise on a test pressing occurs due to problems at the plating process (i.e. faults in the electro-plating itself - or scuffing that occurred if pulling off mothers, fathers or stampers is not done cleanly) - or at the pressing stage (due to contaminants in the vinyl, non-fill, dirty stampers, scuffing at the press, or a number of other possible potential problems).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

In general the majority of surface noise on a test pressing occurs due to problems at the plating process (i.e. faults in the electro-plating itself - or scuffing that occurred if pulling off mothers, fathers or stampers is not done cleanly) - or at the pressing stage (due to contaminants in the vinyl, non-fill, dirty stampers, scuffing at the press, or a number of other possible potential problems).

99% of the time this is true. It's very rare to introduce noise in the cutting stage. Especially crackle type noise.

The best way to figure out what's going on is to have the mother checked. If the mother is clean then they should be able to pull a clean stamper and press a quiet record. If the mother is noisy it needs to be recut.

[Fat larry]

Most people do a heat run on a new box of lacquers to set the optimum stylus heat, a bad lacquer would normally show up.
I suggest you take the test pressings back to whoever cut it and get him/her to measure the surface noise on the lead in and lead out grooves then compare this to the test cuts that were done.
Whilst you cannot rule out anything at this stage (including the lacquers) my experience is that noisy records are usually a galvanic problem,But you also have to consider the possibility that the music was cut too low in order to fit it on.
Have fun

[friction909]

Thanks for the replies. Putting sound into words is always challenging, I've recorded snippets of the beginnings and endings of each song on each side. Feel free to give these a quick listen to let me know if I'm being way too anal about this noise or if the level of noise is acceptable for a new album today? Moving from sterile digital to vinyl is in itself a challenge to for me. I do like vinyl when the noise level is not intrusive. I don't mind the rumble and hiss, it's and pops and clicks that really get to me, I suppose more when it's my music being popped and clicked over.

Thanks,

Robert

ana_test_press_1644_side_1.mp3

ana_test_press_1644_side_2.mp3

[Paul Gold]

That doesn't sound like excessive noise to me. There is usually some noise at the lead in. It's the hardest part of the record to press. It quiets down before the music starts. The other examples sounded quiet to me.

[wado1942]

It sounds like poor quality control on the disc cutter's end. I remember seeing a movie about RCA's process for making vinyl. The laquer, nickel master, mother etc were all washed and had every millimeter examined under microscope before moving on to the next stage. The positives all went through listening tests as well.

[Gengy]

I wanted to remember that an acetate is a very soft material and that the manufacturer by 5/6 times for play before it begins to deteriorate and thus increase its noise.

cheers

[IIIrd]

It's a bit noisy for me I'm afraid, and there a bit of runble as well which is present through out the side. The run out is nicer though....smoothish surface noise. I'd normally reject a tp is there were excessive noise or clicks that occur in the same place on more than one TP...I'd get them to have another go at it,

[Jesse Graffam]

I'm guessing you properly cleaned the disc yourself before playback to remove dust etc. Just wondering what needle you're using, as that plays a part in surface noise.

[friction909]

I rarely clean records, unless I buy them used. The noise to me is pretty beyond dust. The test pressing is far noisier than most records that I could randomly pull out of my collection. The stereohedron stylus of my Pickering VXS-4000 (used in the recordings), I would say, is quite clinical and perhaps brings out noise, and any other vinyl issues like distortion, but when vinyl is clean and mastered well, it sounds great. The pressing plant is looking into material issues and adjustments to their press, and they are going to send me new test pressings. We'll see what the next batch sounds like.

[friction909]

The second set of test pressings seems to indicate that the most offending loud noise is a result of non-fill. The a-side is better, and the b-side is better, but there is still a loud scratchy non-fill problem with the first 1/2 inch into the b-side. I'm thinking of seeing if the pressing plant would be OK with pushing the pressing date back to October when it might be easier to regulate steam temperatures. I'd rather have great vinyl later, for the long haul, than OK vinyl now.

Would pressing in 60 - 70 degree weather versus 85-95 degree weather help enough to make the delay worthwhile?

Thanks,

Robert

[dietrich10]

Curious which plant this was done at

[Blackout-]

ive had my dance tracks pressed to vinyl since 1994 and worked for a record label where i was responsible for the whole pressing procedure of the dance releases from start to finish.

I would request another set of TPs.

There is always more noise on TPs, along with the first 10 or so vinyl that comes off the press for the actual run. Why? because most pressing plants dont want to wait the whole time for the plates to heat up to the ultimate-perfect temperature and, especially for TPs, they usually are pressed at the wrong temperature. Most often, half of the actual plate is at the right temperature but the other half is cooler. This makes half the pressing shrink a little and the vinyl becomes noisy. Some of the time its crackles and pops. More often, its a "swishing" sound as the record spins, and the needle passes over the side of the vinyl that was at a different temperature and had shrunk at a different rate.

And ensure they use Virgin Vinyl.

what happens with recycled vinyl (which many plants started using the last few years to save money) is that they get old Barbara Streisand records out of the covers and shred them and throw the bits into a big melting vat. They cant be assed removing the centre record label (and its actually really hard to remove). So, believe it or not, they have mixed in with the vinyl plastice the old CENTRE LABEL PAPER!! so you hear the clicks and pops, which are pieces of old label paper. This is why you must always insist on using new vinyl.

hope this helps.

Cheers,
Blackout

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by friction909

Would pressing in 60 - 70 degree weather versus 85-95 degree weather help enough to make the delay worthwhile?

Probably yes. The fall is a good time. The temperature is low enough and the humidity is high enough that you don't have to play the records a couple of times to dissipate the static electricity.

[Arksun]

Slightly off-topic, but I remember the first time I heard one of my tracks played on a dub plate (acetate/laquer cut) on my record player, which is about as close as you're going to get to the quality of the actual cut made in the mastering house. I could not believe the sound quality :O , it was incredible, like a whole leap forward from normal vinyl and not a single bit of crackle or background noise at all!, like the needle was skating on glass or something.

Of course playing acetate direct instead of vinyl shortens their playable lifespan rapidly, but man the first few plays on one is breahtaking sound. I guess its understandable the differences given all the process a master laquer has to go through to create the final vinyl article.

But yes, it is a sad truth that standards have slipped somewhat in vinyl manufacturing. There just isn't the demand now like they're used to be. When vinyl was king, it was paramount that the quality was kept to a high standard. Back then at least records were dead center!. Nowadays pressings can be way off, hence the pitch wobble effect.

Even back in 2000 I went through quite a few bad test pressings which was depressing, this was entirely down to the company making the vinyl, NOT the mastering house (which was John Dent @ Loud Mastering who is excellent).

I'm not sure why your acetate (if it really was acetate and not a test pressing, dont confuse acetate which is laquer on aluminium disc to vinyl pressing) had noise issues, it should be super clean sound, unless the plate got contaminated at some point?. Certainly if it was cut at a proper mastering house and not an all-in-one cutter/pressing plant, the quality should have been very high.

If by acetate you actually mean test pressing, the first short run pressings of vinyl at the pressing plant, then yes I can entirely understand why the quality might not be so great, sadly :/

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by friction909

... The reference acetates were rather noisy (crackle throughout the entire sides)...

You really needed to stop right there!

[friction909]

I think the 14" acetate used for plating / pressing is fine. The noise on test pressings round 2 is definitely better than round 1. Still not noise free, but not horrible, mush less noise during the actual music. Maybe most people buying vinyl today are not used to pristine 1980s vinyl and they don't mind a little surface noise?

[Colin Leonard]

depending if they're plated and pressed properly, my test pressings usually come back free of noise once i blow them off really well.

i have noticed that usually when i get the test pressings back, they have little pieces of paper from the sleeve on them. once blown off with compressed air they are completely noise free.

[Colin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

You really needed to stop right there!

yes i totally agree! your dub plates should be completely noise free. they do get dirty and damaged very easily so you have to be careful of that though.

[friction909]

I just heard back from the pressing plant, they have in fact been fighting with non-fill issues all summer, it's been really hot outside and inside for them. They are adding additional cooling to address the issues and they are OK with having my pressing pushed back to October, so I'm going with that. Sure I'd like the vinyl now, don't we all want everything now, but I'd rather work with them and the weather, it's just meant to be that way.

[_barnee]

how did the pressing come out?

[friction909]

They came out good, the cooler temps really helped the pressing process. If I had to do it again, and I probably won't, I'm expecting this to be just a one time deal, I would probably limit time per side to 16 - 17 minutes @ 33RPM and try to cut as much low-end as possible to do better battle with surface noise. I'm looking at my audio files used for vinyl mastering / CD replication, the use of brickwalll limiting is pretty conservative, it's definitely not a loud mastering job, so I don't think that was causing substantial problems. I might get a special master without limiting, if there is a next time, just to not worry about it.