Mastered Cd's Sound Great Everywhere Except in The Studio

[gearmaniac]

For some reason lately I've noticed that most cds sound great and big, round, outside (i.e. car, boombox, etc.)

But when I listen in the studio the same cds seem way too bright, and kind of phasey, very unnatural.

I dont know am I the only one who here's this??

What do you use to create this roundness?? It's like opening the highs and rounding the lows...

i dont know, I'm probably just weird. I'm not a ME by the way...

[mastertone]

What studio monitors?

[laddie.music2]

I agree 100 percent,
good example is Jordan Sparks 'tattoo' it sounds great on my crappy car stereo,
but i've taken that track to a few studios including my own which has great acoustical treatment etc etc, and it sounds overly bright, nasty,
i'd say it sounds terrible,

i'm glad someone else shares my thoughts, even though 'tattoo' translates well on many systems, I could never get myself to mix that bright, or master that bright, simply due to the fact that it's tramatizing to listen to for any length of time ,

although I know if Bob Katz mastered it, he'd of kept it much more pleasant sounding, I think his thoughts on loudness wars etc... are a major cause of this 'trauma', I get by listening to these songs too loud,

although!, I can listen to Zeppelin, Beatles etc... really f*&*n loud, for great lengths, and I just want more

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by gearmaniac

But when I listen in the studio the same cds seem way too bright, and kind of phasey, very unnatural.

Could be parallel hard surfaces in your room or something's wired with the polarity reversed.

[cooker]

Originally Posted by gearmaniac

For some reason lately I've noticed that most cds sound great and big, round, outside (i.e. car, boombox, etc.)

But when I listen in the studio the same cds seem way too bright, and kind of phasey, very unnatural.

Do you only have nearfields?

[gearmaniac]

I have jbl lsr6328' s and ns10's

The room is treated, its not reflections...

[ORC]

Originally Posted by laddie.music2

I agree 100 percent,
good example is Jordan Sparks 'tattoo' it sounds great on my crappy car stereo,
but i've taken that track to a few studios including my own which has great acoustical treatment etc etc, and it sounds overly bright, nasty,
i'd say it sounds terrible,

i'm glad someone else shares my thoughts, even though 'tattoo' translates well on many systems, I could never get myself to mix that bright, or master that bright, simply due to the fact that it's tramatizing to listen to for any length of time ,

although I know if Bob Katz mastered it, he'd of kept it much more pleasant sounding, I think his thoughts on loudness wars etc... are a major cause of this 'trauma', I get by listening to these songs too loud,

although!, I can listen to Zeppelin, Beatles etc... really f*&*n loud, for great lengths, and I just want more

I recorded the track "Pemanent Monday" on the Jordin Sparks debut album. It sounded fantastic, until it was mixed by Chris Lord Alge. I was devastated when I heard his mix. It sounds ok on car stereo's, boom boxes, Ipods, etc, but if you play it on a really decent system it is simply awful. I think the mastering made it even worse!

[Cheebs Goat]

To repeat what I've been saying:

It's time to start putting out two masters: One for crap systems and one for not-crap systems. Background music played on crap is so fundamentally different than foreground music played on not-crap that I don't see how we can continue to treat the two as the same thing. Especially since the not-crap systems don't stand a chance against the crap systems in the "what do most people own" game.

It worked for DVD with widescreen Vs fullscreen. Two different masters for different purposes, sometimes on the same disc. It can work with music.

[Table Of Tone]

A truly killer sounding master should sound great on any system!

Most mix monitoring setups are geared towards mixing and listening to audio that's still got all of it's dynamic range, and nowhere near the red!

When a client or label keeps on pushing for "louder", there's yer problem right there......
I'm not gonna go into that though

[kosmokrator]

welcome to reality. I know exactly what you guys are talking about. 'I kissed a girl and I liked it' is another example. It literally jumps out of the speakers when listened to in a car. Incredibly cool. Serban Ghenea knows his shit.

On my 802D's it sounds just awful.

For certain styles of music it is as it is. I sometimes mix like that as well. People love it. In reality, we're not mixing/mastering for highend-systems but for the normal listener. And a audiophile mix/master will just sound weak against that uber-bright and clippy stuff.

It all depends on the genre. You wouldn't enjoy your fastfood-meal without salt ad spices either. For high-end-cuisine 'over-processing' can kill it as well.

[inlinenl]

GaGa - just dance sounds fantastic on my nautilus 800 .. playing loud ...
it's all imagination ..

[PatrikT]

Originally Posted by gearmaniac

For some reason lately I've noticed that most cds sound great and big, round, outside (i.e. car, boombox, etc.)

But when I listen in the studio the same cds seem way too bright, and kind of phasey, very unnatural.

The purpose of mastering is to fit the real world.

Many think it's about something else.


Regards
Patrik

[PatrikT]

Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat

To repeat what I've been saying:

It's time to start putting out two masters: One for crap systems and one for not-crap systems.

So what does this say if things sound great on 98% of the systems that normal humans use to play back music?

That you should master for the 2% with the pyramid stones on their speakers?


Regards
Patrik

[Jesse Graffam]

Originally Posted by PatrikT

The purpose of mastering is to fit the real world.

Many think it's about something else.


Regards
Patrik

If it sounds like crap on a system that isn't going to lie to you... then IT SOUNDS LIKE CRAP. PERIOD.

Your logic is flawed.

[PatrikT]

Originally Posted by Jesse Graffam

If it sounds like crap on a system that isn't going to lie to you... then IT SOUNDS LIKE CRAP. PERIOD.

Your logic is flawed.

And everything always sound extremely good in the mastering room, when properly mastered, right?


Regards
Patrik

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by Jesse Graffam

If it sounds like crap on a system that isn't going to lie to you... then IT SOUNDS LIKE CRAP. PERIOD.

Your logic is flawed.

..and then there's something called reality.

[RasCricket]

Place needs more basstraps.

Yup.

Bass Traps.

Ive learned that here at GS.......bastrapz

[cooker]

Originally Posted by gearmaniac

I have jbl lsr6328' s and ns10's

The room is treated, its not reflections...

Might be a nasty (mainly mid range) reflection from desk or wall, many small/mid budget studio's engineers are usually unaware of it if they didn't setup the room properly from the beginning and get used to that sound.

Listening a master compared to a mix or recording is very different and much more unforgiving. Try to identify the problem, reflection is probably caused from side walls or desk/console thats between you and the monitors.

[Jesse Graffam]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

..and then there's something called reality.

What one has to understand is that the less accurate the playback systems we're talking about here, the more disparity between what's wrong with the sound from system to system.

One needs to make it sound great in a great room on a great setup AND consider where problems could arise with translation to the mass average.

If you try to make it sound great on one crappy system, there will be a bunch of other crappy systems that it'll sound twice as crappy on AND also sound like crap on great systems. If this is the reality that you want for your music, then have at it.

[strdsk]

It's important to remember that studios are designed for linearity...cars and boomboxes are not. For years, I've been mixing overly bright at high res. Once you dumb down sample rates for consumer use, and insert the material into the "mega-bass world we live in...all that brightness goes away. The first thing people do in cras and on boomboxes is yank bass way up. Are you listening to your car rig with bass at 0? Audio systems for commmercial use are designed and buiilt with bumps at freq points to keep their systems exciting sounding...so they can compete with the next manufacturer.

[Timothyjag]

It's just the nature of mastering, as CDs became the norm, folks really got into trying to make them sound better and louder, I think the pinnacle was hit around 10 years ago, but still folks were demanding louder and sweeter CDs, where can you go once you have hit the top? further into distortion and boosted highs and lows. So that's kinda where we are now. Studio monitors are designed, hopefully, to be flat and faithful and they are also expected to be pointing right into your earholes. So you get you mixes sounding good that way, and then the mastering engineer and client decide how bright/thumping it should sound in a car or bar or at home. It stands to reason that those speakers are going to be tucked away in the car doors or above the toilet door and that a lot of high energy will be lost. Also our hearing responds best to mid range so anything enhanced in the low or high will give us a sense of closeness or clarity.

When you mix your tracks, you'd be thinking there was something wrong with you if you had to add +8 db shelves to the highs and lows of every single instrument in the mix, so you don't, you add eq where you think it is needed to either make the instrument sound closer to the way it's supposed to sound or go crazy for effect, or cut the lows on overheads etc. When you play your mix back on your car stereo it probably sounds dull, so off to the nice man it goes.

Music is sounding particularly bad at the moment, but what can you do, grumble and say "bah, kids today(!)" that's what I do anyway.

T

[Mark D.]

Originally Posted by ORC

I recorded "Pemanent Monday" on Jordin Sparks debut. Fantastic, until mixed by Chris Lord Alge. I was devastated when I heard his mix. Ok in car, boom boxes, Ipods, but awful on a decent system.

Did you do your own: 'what the heck mix' for comparison? CLA has a reputation, and has done great work, but maybe he is over-booking. He seems to be everywhere, that could be taxing his ears.

Originally Posted by PatrikT

The purpose of mastering is to fit the real world. Many think it's about something else.

Agreed, that and 'any system'. It is possible. There are mixes and masters that translate as well inside a studio as outside. It takes time, and work, but it can be done. But what he'd heard did not.

[ORC]

Originally Posted by Mark D.

Did you do your own: 'what the heck mix' for comparison? CLA has a reputation, and has done great work, but maybe he is over-booking. He seems to be everywhere, that could be taxing his ears.

The only "what the heck mix" I did was the headphone mix for tracking. It sounded great when Jordin was cutting her vocal. If you listen to the CLA mix, at the intro you can already hear his compressor just sucking the life out of her voice. It gets worse from there.

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by Jesse Graffam

What one has to understand is that the less accurate the playback systems we're talking about here, the more disparity between what's wrong with the sound from system to system.

One needs to make it sound great in a great room on a great setup AND consider where problems could arise with translation to the mass average.

If you try to make it sound great on one crappy system, there will be a bunch of other crappy systems that it'll sound twice as crappy on AND also sound like crap on great systems. If this is the reality that you want for your music, then have at it.

I know all of that.
But in reality many top-tier mixes/masters are incredibly good when played back on car stereos/boomboxes but suck at a highres-monitor chain.

As I said before, 'I kissed a girl...' by Katy Perry is a good example for that.

Mixers like Serban Ghenea (or CLA, another example) know this and cater to the boombox-crowd.
Which is perfectly alright, since those folks buy the CDs /listen to the radio, not a bunch of mastering engineers on their B&Ws.

'The Raven' by Rebecca Pidgeon, recorded by Bob Katz, for example is completely different. Sounds great on my B&Ws. But will have no impact whatsover in your car when played after Katy Perry.
Which is alright again.

Different music needs different treatment. Keeping it all hifi and clean with minimal limiting etc. is just not suited for certain things.

IMO, 'if it sounds good in mastering, it'll be the best for every system' is simply not true. Sometimes it seems to have to really suck in mastering to be the best on normal listening systems.

[Mark D.]

Originally Posted by ORC

It sounded great when Jordin was cutting her vocal. If you listen to the CLA mix, at the intro you can already hear his compressor just sucking the life out of her voice. It gets worse from there.

If you still have the tracks, have considered doing a mix for comparison?

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

As I said before, 'I kissed a girl...' by Katy Perry is a good example for that.

Just listening to the song on Itunes, I had made a guess who mastered it and got lucky. BBBG... That seems to be part of his thing on some stuff.. a little blown out.

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

Sometimes it seems to have to really suck in mastering to be the best on normal listening systems.

I don't know about that one...not buying it.

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

Just listening to the song on Itunes, I had made a guess who mastered it and got lucky. BBBG... That seems to be part of his thing on some stuff.. a little blown out.

Actually, I think Serban Ghenea's mixing was a bigger part of the result. Of course that's just guessing.

I don't know about that one...not buying it.

So did it sound superb on your system?
If not, do you think BG's monitoring chain is not top notch? Don't you think he mastered it over the top intentionally?

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

So did it sound superb on your system?

"Superb" is not the word I would use. Pop music can be fickle.. It sounded like I expected it to...drum machines and drama queens..a little blown out...but it didn't suck; ) Listening to an mp3 over the internet doesn't really do any sound quality justice.

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

If not, do you think BG's monitoring chain is not top notch?

I'm pretty sure it's top notch.

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

Don't you think he mastered it over the top intentionally?

Partially...I think you'd need to hear the "before' to have an honest critique.
I think in some cases, when you have a reputation, you are sometimes expected to live up to it. Client request?

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

"Superb" is not the word I would use. Pop music can be fickle.. It sounded like I expected it to...drum machines and drama queens..a little blown out...but it didn't suck; ) Listening to an mp3 over the internet doesn't really do any sound quality justice.

it's clippy and uber-bright. It rocks, though.

Partially...I think you'd need to hear the "before' to have an honest critique.
I think in some cases, when you have a reputation, you are sometimes expected to live up to it. Client request?

sure. That's my point. Most people don't care if it's clippy and over the top. The top guys know this and cater to the masses.

[ORC]

Originally Posted by Mark D.

If you still have the tracks, have considered doing a mix for comparison?

This particular album was done in 2007. It is on Jive records. It's the same album with Tatoo, and the duet with Chris Brown. I'm not sure how much experience you have working with major labels. They never leave tracks laying around on tape or hard drives after a session, thus doing a remix for comparison would be impossible. I have no doubt that a myriad of other guys could have done a much better job mixing. The only track that CLA
mixed on this album is "Permanent Monday." This also happens to be the only track on the record that uses real guitar, bass, drums, keys, strings, even a real melotron.