Forssell Technologies MADC-2 ADC.

[16/44.1]

About the Forssell Technologie MADC-2 A/D converter, how good is it?

[priko]

The Forsell is the best AD DA, I have ever experienced. I use it every day, I did compare to Crane Hedd and Mytek 8x192, It is much more transparent and detailed. It's a not a small difference, it is clearly the league above for mastering, recording and monitoring.

[16/44.1]

Originally Posted by priko

The Forsell is the best AD DA, I have ever experienced. I use it every day, I did compare to Crane Hedd and Mytek 8x192, It is much more transparent and detailed. It's a not a small difference, it is clearly the league above for mastering, recording and monitoring.

Better than Benchmark ADC1 or Pacific Microsonics Model 2?

[streetbeats]

Originally Posted by 16/44.1

Better than Benchmark ADC1 or Pacific Microsonics Model 2?

Based on prikos opinion that its a league above the Mytek and HEDD, then thats a logical conclusion to draw

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by streetbeats

Based on prikos opinion that its a league above the Mytek and HEDD, then thats a logical conclusion to draw

There are no facts here only opinions.


Youll have to try it for yourself, and disregard the acolytes. **especially** the acolytes.

the best AD/DA I have ever heard is the True Match.

Standalone Converter


but it is insanely expensive, a lot more than the Forsell(or any other AD/DA touted here)

I was also wowed by the Berkley Audio Designs

Berkeley Audio Design Product

(same design team as PM)

but again..pricey

[ISedlacek]

I used to have DAD AX-24, which was great. After I got and tried Forssell AD/DA, I sold DAD, since Forssell converters sounded still a lot better ... For me the very best AD DA I have ever tried so far ...

[streetbeats]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

There are no facts here only opinions.


Youll have to try it for yourself, and disregard the acolytes. **especially** the acolytes.

I never said anything to the contrary

The 'have to try for yourself' thing seems entirely obvious to me, when purchasing pretty much any piece of audio gear thumbsup

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by priko

The Forsell is the best AD DA, I have ever experienced. I use it every day, I did compare to Crane Hedd and Mytek 8x192, It is much more transparent and detailed. It's a not a small difference, it is clearly the league above for mastering, recording and monitoring.

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I used to have DAD AX-24, which was great. After I got and tried Forssell AD/DA, I sold DAD, since Forssell converters sounded still a lot better ... For me the very best AD DA I have ever tried so far ...

What they said. Confirmed.

[Spartacus]

Originally Posted by priko

The Forsell is the best AD DA, I have ever experienced. I use it every day, I did compare to Crane Hedd and Mytek 8x192, It is much more transparent and detailed. It's a not a small difference, it is clearly the league above for mastering, recording and monitoring.

I guess the time has come for the "pro" people to become like the "hi-fi" people...
Now we see "huge" difference between converters which in blind test would fool most of professional engineers.
I guess some brands get some "hype" here.
We're in 2010, we're not into 1985 converters technology anymore...

[I.R.Baboon]

Originally Posted by Spartacus

I guess the time has come for the "pro" people to become like the "hi-fi" people...
Now we see "huge" difference between converters which in blind test would fool most of professional engineers.
I guess some brands get some "hype" here.
We're in 2010, we're not into 1985 converters technology anymore...

Agreed, that "huge" difference could also easily have just been a 0.2dB difference in level.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Spartacus

I guess the time has come for the "pro" people to become like the "hi-fi" people...
Now we see "huge" difference between converters which in blind test would fool most of professional engineers.
I guess some brands get some "hype" here.
We're in 2010, we're not into 1985 converters technology anymore...

Why do you speak for others ? Have YOU compared the mentioned converters for yourself ? If yes, please share you impressions. If not, your theories may not help much ...

[Spartacus]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Why do you speak for others ? Have YOU compared the mentioned converters for yourself ? If yes, please share you impressions. If not, your theories may not help much ...

Yes I did,
and I just wrote my impressions above : there are not "huge" differences between those converters.
As mentioned above, it could be a 0.2 dB difference, or a head slightly turned between 2 listening...

Originally Posted by masterminder

you could take any group of good converters, all working properly, and play the same program material through them, level matched, through the same amp / speakers.

no one would be able to reliably differentiate between them, with statistical significance, in blind testing. well, maybe there are a couple of 7-year old icelandic boys that could do it in an anechoic chamber, but not those that are posting here.

people that are pretending [or actually believing] that they can tell high quality converters, that are designed to be transparent, apart, or that one is "way better sounding", and so forth are generally either salesman, or purchasers of the one they favor.

everyone who has been in this business for a length of time knows this.

i am not saying that there are not subtle differences, just that those differences are not such that people are going to be able to identify them reliably in blind testing.

i am also not saying that there is no merit in trying to find and use the best equipment that one can use.

100% agree

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by masterminder

you could take any group of good converters, all working properly, and play the same program material through them, level matched, through the same amp / speakers.

no one would be able to reliably differentiate between them, with statistical significance, in blind testing. well, maybe there are a couple of 7-year old icelandic boys that could do it in an anechoic chamber, but not those that are posting here.

people that are pretending [or actually believing] that they can tell high quality converters, that are designed to be transparent, apart, or that one is "way better sounding", and so forth are generally either salesman, or purchasers of the one they favor.

everyone who has been in this business for a length of time knows this.

i am not saying that there are not subtle differences, just that those differences are not such that people are going to be able to identify them reliably in blind testing.

i am also not saying that there is no merit in trying to find and use the best equipment that one can use.

thumbsup

I am also skeptical when one brand has a lot of acolytes spreading the gospel.. especially with converters.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

thumbsup

I am also skeptical when one brand has a lot of acolytes spreading the gospel.. especially with converters.

Interesting then that in the other thread with three AD samples you heard quite significant differences

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

C seems like it picks up the most of everything... B the least.

(I noticed this particularly in the background chords... the half notes, walking up thing . C showed me all the details of those chords, while B had them removed completely(nearly)..A was second best to me..)

Maybe there was 0,2 dB difference or you turned the head apart from the speakers or you are 7 years old icelandic boy ?

You guys are really amusing ...

[livingstone]

i'm sorry Ivo but i don't agree with this point of view either,
and would add that your advice may be a bit orientaded as you're a re-seller.

a year ago, i've done a little converter shoot out including Prism, Weiss & Cranesong converters.

We were two, in an acousticaly heavily treated room with top notch pair of speaker.
both concluded that at this level of quality:
- difference where extremely tiny
- most of the time more a question of taste, not a question of TRUTH

to sumarise at this level of conversion quality, the choice of the engineer - mic choice/placement in tracking, eqs or compression setings in mastering- are far more important in the result than a such tiny difference in converters.

[lowland]

I would very much like to audition the Forssell converters when time and (more importantly) space allow.

It took me a while to realise that the key to good converter design is the analogue side of things - I once interviewed Michael Grace of Grace design who said 'the more I learned about [digital technology] the more it all became analogue'. I think we can all agree that Fred F. is a man who probably knows more than most about analogue audio design, so if only for that reason I think the converters would need me to check them out, but also in my limited correspondence with Fred and from what I know of him from other sources he seems to be one of nature's gents - you may smile, but that sort of stuff matters to me!

Grace Design monitor controller review (the quote is in the 'In Use' section): http://www.lowlandmasters.com/Articl...controller.pdf

[streetbeats]

Slight OT Nigel - did you end up using the Grace or was it only with you for the duration of the review? You dont tend to hear it come up much in talk of monitor controllers.

[lowland]

Originally Posted by streetbeats

Slight OT Nigel - did you end up using the Grace or was it only with you for the duration of the review? You dont tend to hear it come up much in talk of monitor controllers.

Sadly, it went back after the review. If I'd had the dosh at the time it's possible I would have bought it as it offered a lot of convenience, although my more usual regime switching between converters works well enough in spite of being a bit clunky. I thought Michael Grace a bright and likeable guy of whom we'll no doubt hear more in the future.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by livingstone

i'm sorry Ivo but i don't agree with this point of view either,
and would add that your advice may be a bit orientaded as you're a re-seller.

a year ago, i've done a little converter shoot out including Prism, Weiss & Cranesong converters.

First, my secondary "boutique" sales activity has nothing to do with sharing my impressions here. As a matter of fact I sell DAD or Lavry Gold as well and they are much more expensive, so if I think of business, it would be much more clever to recommend rather them ... But this is not the case ...

Second, it quite depends on what you exactly test and how you test. Very interesting way of comparing the converters is for example a "mastering loop": having the starting mix and the same HW settings and to pass it through twice, just changing the convertors. The result usually brings quite significant differences ... Once I did these two loops using a) Lavry Blue AD DA and b) DAD AX-24 AD DA. A friend of mine, who is the most sceptical person regarding such things, after listening the results just commented that is sounds like if Lavry Blue have just "half samples" ... such a difference it was (in terms of depth, details, natural sound etc.). And a similar difference (although not that big) was there when comparing DAD vs Forssell AD DA.

Apart from this, I also like to record some of my delicate acoustic instruments, that I am very familiar with and just to change the converter. The differences are usually not too small either. But I am rather talking of comparing different categories of converters, while Weiss, Prism etc. may be in a similar category.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Second, it quite depends on what you exactly test and how you test. Very interesting way of comparing the converters is for example a "mastering loop": having the starting mix and the same HW settings and to pass it through twice, just changing the convertors. The result usually brings quite significant differences ... Once I did these two loops using a) Lavry Blue AD DA and b) DAD AX-24 AD DA. A friend of mine, who is the most sceptical person regarding such things, after listening the results just commented that is sounds like if Lavry Blue have just "half samples" ... such a difference it was (in terms of depth, details, natural sound etc.). And a similar difference (although not that big) was there when comparing DAD vs Forssell AD DA.

So was that test conducted double blind and with levels calibrated?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

So was that test conducted double blind and with levels calibrated?

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

So was that test conducted double blind and with levels calibrated?

Yes

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Yes

That surprises me. In own comparisons, I found the differences to be reasonable when sighted but pretty subtle when compared double blind (with an audio loop too, btw). Certainly, none of the contenders sounded like "they only had half samples" or anything like that. And the listening environment and ability certainly wasn't the problem: a level difference of 0.04 dB was successfully and repeatedly identified blindly.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

That surprises me. In own comparisons, I found the differences to be reasonable when sighted but pretty subtle when compared double blind (with an audio loop too, btw). Certainly, none of the contenders sounded like "they only had half samples" or anything like that. And the listening environment and ability certainly wasn't the problem: a level difference of 0.04 dB was successfully and repeatedly identified blindly.

Do you talk about the mentioned Lavry Blue vs DAD converters comparison ? Have you tried it yourself as well ?

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Do you talk about the mentioned Lavry Blue vs DAD converters comparison ? Have you tried it yourself as well ?

No, sorry, I had a comparison between the Forssell and various other converters in mind, though I wouldn't expect the Lavry blue to seriously underperform. Do you think they do?

PS: I think I've muddled together this thread with recent statements about Forssell vs. Lavry in my mind... My Bad. Hope it doesn't confuse the issue.

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

Youll have to try it for yourself, and disregard the acolytes. **especially** the acolytes.

the best AD/DA I have ever heard is the True Match.

Standalone Converter


but it is insanely expensive, a lot more than the Forsell(or any other AD/DA touted here)

I was also wowed by the Berkley Audio Designs

Berkeley Audio Design Product

(same design team as PM)

but again..pricey

There are no facts in your post only your opinions.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

No, sorry, I had a comparison between the Forssell and various other converters in mind, though I wouldn't expect the Lavry blue to seriously underperform. Do you think they do?

I would not say they "underperform", but DAD are simply wonderful sounding convertors in slightly higher league. As I said , the difference between DAD and Forssell AD /DA is not that big, but certain aspects are clearly audible between these two: DAD is a bit more bass pronounced and the highs sound a bit more "artificial" on DAD. The depth is also more natural in Forssell rendering ...

As for your great converter comparison published elsewhere here - I think the problem lies in using Mytek DA. As many times said - we actually do not hear the reproduction of the original sound but of Mytek DA audio characteristics (which we don't know) ... But we get OT again )

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

As for your great converter comparison published elsewhere here - I think the problem lies in using Mytek DA. As many times said - we actually do not hear the reproduction of the original sound but of Mytek DA audio characteristics (which we don't know) ... But we get OT again )

It was indeed said multiple times and questioned/debunked just as often: If the playback D/A is the same throughout, you have the same exact (full range, high dynamic range) starting signal for each A/D converter to record. Unless you assign some magical properties to audio signals played by a Mytek D/A which prohibit future sound change/degradation, then I have no idea what the argument presented is supposed to be. Why exactly should we hear less difference between converters if the playback source is brand X instead of brand Y?

[thermos]

Originally Posted by 16/44.1

Better than Benchmark ADC1 or Pacific Microsonics Model 2?

I haven't heard great things about the ADC1, so I'm guessing its better than that.

The Pacific Microsonics Model 2 is still king in the clipping department, they really nailed that. I guess there is HDCD encoding in the last part of the headroom that makes things really sound less hard than they should when the user is hard clipping the front end of it. That being said, the Forssell MADC does a great job of clipping (if you want to use it for that), much better than the Hedd and Lynx Aurora (the Aurora does a respectable job actually).

In terms of sonics, the Forssell MADA sounds so great in both the A/D and D/A department that I have no desire to look elsewhere ever. Just open, 3d and a joy to use and listen to.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

It was indeed said multiple times and questioned/debunked just as often: If the playback D/A is the same throughout, you have the same exact (full range, high dynamic range) starting signal for each A/D converter to record. Unless you assign some magical properties to audio signals played by a Mytek D/A which prohibit future sound change/degradation, then I have no idea what the argument presented is supposed to be. Why exactly should we hear less difference between converters if the playback source is brand X instead of brand Y?

Maybe he is saying that usually converter designers try to make their own ADA loop as flat as possible, thus a Mytek ADA loop might sound flatter than a Forssell AD with a Mytek DA. Makes perfect sense to me anyway. I'd be curious to see what you thought of the newest Forssell ADA chain. The Mytek stuff sounded great in your tests though.