Question about DDP, CD-Text + hidden pregap tracks.

[Eye-D]

Hello all,

I am working on 2 CD masters that each have a hidden pregap track as well as CD-Text. I author these with cue sheets and burn the discs with ImgBurn (which can handle audio cue sheets now). The CDs work fine.

However, I cannot find any Windows software that allows me to burn ALL of the existing CD-Text entries. All software I have tried seems limited to CATALOG, TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER, ISRC and relevant FLAGS.

But, there's also COMPOSER, ARRANGER and MESSAGE. I cannot find any software that can burn this meta data, and even Sonoris' export from DDP to cue sheet omits these entries.

DDP files, of course, can and do hold all these CD-Text entries without any problem. I have been test-driving the Sonoris DDP Creator, which I really like so far. It imports my cue sheet and lets me add all the relevant data and export it to a DDP. There is a nasty bug (in v2.02) that makes the hidden pregap audio data disappear during the export, but I have been able to work around this by putting the original audio data back in the resulting IMAGE.DAT file. (The resulting DDP then plays fine in the software.)

Here begins my problem:

*Sonoris DDP Creator cannot burn the hidden pregap. It gives a clear warning it can't, which does make me think it properly recognizes it, and that the DDP should be fine at the plant.

*Wave Editor on OSX will burn the DDP (with some warnings) but omits the hidden pregap. I read that this is due to a mac's burning engine limitations, which automatically rules out mac-based solutions.

*GEAR on Windows errors out on the pregap track as well. There is no way that I can find to tell it to ignore the error.

So, it's come down to wanting something I know is possible, and I may even have achieved already, but there is no way for me to burn the DDP to make sure. I want the hidden pregap track AND all CD-Text entries. It HAS to be possible. I know I can settle for my master discs that are simply missing a few CD-Text entries that almost no one can read anyway, but it goes against my character. If there's a possibility to pull this off, I want to be able to do it.

This leaves me with some questions:

*Is there any software out there that will not get its panties in a bunch about the hidden pregap in a DDP and let me burn a reference disc?

*Is there maybe an old DOS-application I have overlooked that will write all possible CD-Text entries and lets me bypass the DDP process?

*If the DDP plays fine in the Sonoris DDP Creator v2.02 will it press like that? I wish it would use ImgBurn's engine, that would take care of all my problems.

Any help/tips would be greatly appreciated.

I will keep you posted on my progress, because there have to be other completists out there who want the same thing.

Frank

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by Eye-D

*Is there any software out there that will not get its panties in a bunch about the hidden pregap in a DDP and let me burn a reference disc?

I'm pretty certain that Wavelab with the (optional) DDP addon will do this fine. Probably not the best option due to high price of the DDP addon though.

[GeorgeZ]

Originally Posted by Eye-D

Hello all,

I am working on 2 CD masters that each have a hidden pregap track as well as CD-Text. I author these with cue sheets and burn the discs with ImgBurn (which can handle audio cue sheets now). The CDs work fine.

However, I cannot find any Windows software that allows me to burn ALL of the existing CD-Text entries. All software I have tried seems limited to CATALOG, TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER, ISRC and relevant FLAGS.

But, there's also COMPOSER, ARRANGER and MESSAGE. I cannot find any software that can burn this meta data, and even Sonoris' export from DDP to cue sheet omits these entries.

DDP files, of course, can and do hold all these CD-Text entries without any problem. I have been test-driving the Sonoris DDP Creator, which I really like so far. It imports my cue sheet and lets me add all the relevant data and export it to a DDP. There is a nasty bug (in v2.02) that makes the hidden pregap audio data disappear during the export, but I have been able to work around this by putting the original audio data back in the resulting IMAGE.DAT file. (The resulting DDP then plays fine in the software.)

The CD-TEXT editor mentioned in the following thread is free and its exported CDT format is possible to use for both the DDP fileset and CUE image format:

Eclipse language code error is BACK.

...
So, it's come down to wanting something I know is possible, and I may even have achieved already, but there is no way for me to burn the DDP to make sure. I want the hidden pregap track AND all CD-Text entries. It HAS to be possible. I know I can settle for my master discs that are simply missing a few CD-Text entries that almost no one can read anyway, but it goes against my character. If there's a possibility to pull this off, I want to be able to do it.

This leaves me with some questions:

*Is there any software out there that will not get its panties in a bunch about the hidden pregap in a DDP and let me burn a reference disc?

*Is there maybe an old DOS-application I have overlooked that will write all possible CD-Text entries and lets me bypass the DDP process?

*If the DDP plays fine in the Sonoris DDP Creator v2.02 will it press like that? I wish it would use ImgBurn's engine, that would take care of all my problems.

Any help/tips would be greatly appreciated.

I will keep you posted on my progress, because there have to be other completists out there who want the same thing.

Frank

I would prepare CDT file with all those CD-Text info filled, then create CUE+BIN either manually using notepad or by help of the famous ImgBurn, then edit the CUE to create a hidden track and then burn the CUE+BIN+CDT image in ImgBurn or Nero. It should work well (my experience). You can mount the CUE to Daemon Tools and create DDPs from the virtual drive. Simple and easy

[Cellotron]

I don't know of any CD Text compatible players beyond Sonoris DDP Player that actually display the "composer", "arranger" and "message" fields. Are there any others that people are aware of?

It should be noted that these fields in order to supported by the standard Cue Sheet format as well must be encoded to a separate .cdt file - info at http://digitalx.org/cuesheetsyntax.php#cdtextfile - which Sonoris DDP Creator currently does not support.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Table Of Tone]

If the artist/label has registered the material properly?
You only need to put the MCN number and ISRC's on the CD.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

If the artist/label has registered the material properly?
You only need to put the MCN number and ISRC's on the CD.

Don't know about you but I for one really appreciate seeing the titles and artist name pop up in car players - in which case you need CD Text.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

I don't know of any CD Text compatible players beyond Sonoris DDP Player that actually display the "composer", "songwriter", "arranger" and "message" fields. Are there any others that people are aware of?

It should be noted that these fields in order to supported by the standard Cue Sheet format as well must be encoded to a separate .cdt file - info at digitalx.org | Cue Sheet Syntax - which Sonoris DDP Creator currently does not support.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Wavelab.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

Wavelab.

In other words - it seems only specialized authoring tools can display the extended CD Text fields such as "arranger" and "message" - but nothing that would actually be used by the typical end user. The only CD Text fields I've ever seen displayed by CD Text compatible players are Album Artist, Album Title, Track Title, Track Artist. Which leads one to wonder why to bother to enter the extended field info if no one will actually see them beyond the person doing the authoring.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

If the artist/label has registered the material properly?
You only need to put the MCN number and ISRC's on the CD.

CD text is important because the artists like seeing the text appear in the displays of car stereos.

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

I don't know of any CD Text compatible players beyond Sonoris DDP Player that actually display the "composer", "arranger" and "message" fields. Are there any others that people are aware of?
...

Best regards,
Steve Berson

There's AEs Backline.

I'm still waiting for someone to release a basic player which is either free or cheap(er). I hoped AE was working on this, but I see the DDP function costs extra. It seems like it would be a good idea to offer an entry-level player which is upgradeable, not the other way around.


-SD

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by sonicdefault

There's AEs Backline.

I'm still waiting for someone to release a basic player which is either free or cheap(er). I hoped AE was working on this, but I see the DDP function costs extra. It seems like it would be a good idea to offer an entry-level player which is upgradeable, not the other way around.


-SD

Backline looks cool but since I have the Sonoris DDP Player OEM that I can send to all of my clients (as it's cross platform) I don't personally have a need for it.

Again - my inquiry is not asking what authoring tools support the "extended" CD Text fields (specifically "composer, arranger, message") but instead is asking what "consumer" oriented player, either software or hardware, that actually displays these fields?? Other than a few programs aimed at audio engineers for CD authoring I honestly don't know of any (and I own 2 CD players that do in fact display CD Text).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Backline looks cool but since I have the Sonoris DDP Player OEM that I can send to all of my clients (as it's cross platform) I don't personally have a need for it.

Again - my inquiry is not asking what authoring tools support the "extended" CD Text fields (specifically "composer, arranger, message") but instead is asking what "consumer" oriented player, either software or hardware, that actually displays these fields?? Other than a few programs aimed at audio engineers for CD authoring I honestly don't know of any (and I own 2 CD players that do in fact display CD Text).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

I understand Steve I realized what you meant because I've actually asked the same thing. I was just adding to the discussion.

As you may have seen (or been a part of) awhile back, we discussed this on another thread.

-SD

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

CD text is important because the artists like seeing the text appear in the displays of car stereos.

I only add CD text if specially requested because sometimes it can cause issues at the plant and some plants just remove it anyway.
Around 70% of major releases only contain MCN and ISRC's.

I agree that it's good for the car stereo but I find that these days, most car stereo's are ipod extensions, so it's gracenotes rather than CD text, that needs to be present N correct!

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

I only add CD text if specially requested because sometimes it can cause issues at the plant and some plants just remove it anyway.
Around 70% of major releases only contain MCN and ISRC's.

I agree that it's good for the car stereo but I find that these days, most car stereo's are ipod extensions, so it's gracenotes rather than CD text, that needs to be present N correct!

No CD text on CD = possible disappointed client. I don't think it's the client's job to request CD text, it's our job to offer it. I hate CD text too, by the way!

[GeorgeZ]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Again - my inquiry is not asking what authoring tools support the "extended" CD Text fields (specifically "composer, arranger, message") but instead is asking what "consumer" oriented player, either software or hardware, that actually displays these fields?? Other than a few programs aimed at audio engineers for CD authoring I honestly don't know of any (and I own 2 CD players that do in fact display CD Text).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Hi Steve,

I know it is quite old freeware player but for my testing is usable...

Free "Digital CD Player for Windows" by Moroboshi LUM:
http://elfin.sakuratan.com/fsw/dcdp_r107.zip
(linked from this page: http://elfin.sakuratan.com/index_e.html)
or from FTP:
http://ftp.kumamoto-u.ac.jp/pub/wind.../dcdp_r107.zip

Maybe it will need wnaspi32.dll or some other dll, I don't know now. It is working for me - it has just been tested with all the CD-Text fields filled.

Regards,

[PieterS]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

It should be noted that these fields in order to supported by the standard Cue Sheet format as well must be encoded to a separate .cdt file - info at digitalx.org | Cue Sheet Syntax - which Sonoris DDP Creator currently does not support.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Reading these files on cue import is supported if the CDTEXTFILE command is found. Export is not supported but could be implemented easily.

[PieterS]

Originally Posted by Eye-D

But, there's also COMPOSER, ARRANGER and MESSAGE. I cannot find any software that can burn this meta data, and even Sonoris' export from DDP to cue sheet omits these entries.

The cue format doesn't allow these values as Steve pointed out. But you can burn these entries with the DDP Creator

Originally Posted by Eye-D

There is a nasty bug (in v2.02) that makes the hidden pregap audio data disappear during the export, but I have been able to work around this by putting the original audio data back in the resulting IMAGE.DAT file. (The resulting DDP then plays fine in the software.)

Here begins my problem:

*Sonoris DDP Creator cannot burn the hidden pregap. It gives a clear warning it can't, which does make me think it properly recognizes it, and that the DDP should be fine at the plant.

The DDP Creator does support hidden tracks, but can't burn a hidden track before track 1 at the moment because of a CD engine limitation. This will be possible soon. Export to DDP should work fine though.

[William Bowden]

However, I cannot find any Windows software that allows me to burn ALL of the existing CD-Text entries. All software I have tried seems limited to CATALOG, TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER, ISRC and relevant FLAGS.

But, there's also COMPOSER, ARRANGER and MESSAGE. I cannot find any software that can burn this meta data, and even Sonoris' export from DDP to cue sheet omits these entries.

You can input all this data in Sequoia, I always put my mastering credit in 'message'.

The King

[GeorgeZ]

Originally Posted by William Bowden

However, I cannot find any Windows software that allows me to burn ALL of the existing CD-Text entries. All software I have tried seems limited to CATALOG, TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER, ISRC and relevant FLAGS.

But, there's also COMPOSER, ARRANGER and MESSAGE. I cannot find any software that can burn this meta data, and even Sonoris' export from DDP to cue sheet omits these entries.

You can input all this data in Sequoia, I always put my mastering credit in 'message'.

The King

Hi,

I think that more detailed explanation is needed...

I've just created a CUE sheet for my TEST CD:

CDTEXTFILE cdtext.bin
CATALOG 1234567890005
FILE "F:\TEST1\DM" BINARY
TRACK 01 AUDIO
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
FLAGS DCP
ISRC CZ2345678901
INDEX 00 00:31:00
INDEX 01 00:33:00
TRACK 03 AUDIO
FLAGS DCP
ISRC CZ3456789012
INDEX 00 01:04:00
INDEX 01 01:07:00
TRACK 04 AUDIO
INDEX 00 01:38:00
INDEX 01 01:42:20
INDEX 02 01:49:00
INDEX 03 01:56:00
TRACK 05 AUDIO
ISRC CZ0000000000
INDEX 01 02:00:00

where that "cdtext.bin" file contains all the CD-Text info. The proof is attached as a JPG image.

Then the CUE sheet was burnt from ImgBurn (it can be any software with full CUE compatibility and you need a CD-Text supporting drive of course)

The proof for a successfully burnt disc is also attached...

Is there any other unclear thing?

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

No CD text on CD = possible disappointed client. I don't think it's the client's job to request CD text, it's our job to offer it. I hate CD text too, by the way!

I always explain to the client about CD text, ISRC, MCN and Gracenotes.
I normally end up talking them out of having CD text but explain the importance of ISRC's.

I have more often than not, seen track titles and even band names, changed slightly, by the time the record is registered with Gracenotes.
Let's face it, artists, managers and labels are always changing stuff!

Egg on face for us guy's, if the CD contains CD text from the original (now wrong) titles we were given at the time of mastering!

If the CD just contains ISRC's and MCN?
Not a problem, right?

That's probably one of the reasons most of the big names don't add it?

[Eye-D]

Hello, all.

I've got the final product in my hands and it looks swell. Coincidentally, the hidden pregap tracks and the CD-TEXT came out fine. Thanks to all who offered information here or in pm! I think I only burned away 30 discs or so before I was happy.

The poor man's way to go was indeed a combination of a cue sheet, cdt-file, imgburn and the incomplete cd-text editor/ripper for verification.

This combination of tools worked flawlessly, although some players (such as the digital cd player discussed here) don't show that one of the two CDs has cd-text, which I assume is because it's in written somewhere in or near the toc. (Happens only on the disc with the longest hidden track.)

In short: the mac is out because it doesn't support audio in the pregaps. Wavelab + DDP will also work, but is costly. CD Architect's interface makes me cry, and GEAR balks on the pregap also. Also, some CD-burners don't want to get the job done, either, which complicated matters more when hunting down the best way go.

For the Sonoris people: the error I got is that it wrote the DDP file just fine, but upon inspection (as raw audio data) it lost the pregap audio when saving to ddp. It replaced it with silence. If I copied the audio back by hand (raw) and opened it back up in your product, told it okay on all the errors and then saved it again, it *did* keep it and I'm sure it would have worked fine.

I understand that there are 0 cd players out there that support all cd-text entries, but we managed to stick neat stuff in there for our fans to find. And find it they will.

Thanks again to all who helped!

Frank

PS: For the next album the challenge is a CD-G project. I've already discovered that finding decent CD-G software in the forest of user-friendly Karaoke software will be a challenge.

[PieterS]

Yeah, this is all fixed in 2.0.3 that will be out soon. Burning a hidden track before track 1 will be possible as well as importing it from a cue sheet.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by PieterS

Yeah, this is all fixed in 2.0.3 that will be out soon. Burning a hidden track before track 1 will be possible as well as importing it from a cue sheet.

That's great Pieter!

The hidden "pre first mark" track thing seems to crop up once in a while.

[Eye-D]

That's great news about DDP Creator. Definitely worth the purchase!

[da goose]

Hey Frank!

Nice to see you here!

For me wavelab6 is the way to go for CD text and then export cuesheet and do the rest (making aa ddp that is) in DDP creator.
WL6 supports all fields for cd text though i doubt that there are a lot of players supporting things like composer and things like that.

BTW, what i heard is that WL7 is out somewhere in August with new burning engine, i hope that they didn't take these kind of things out to port it to mac as well.

Peakster