Mastering Big Names = Hypocrites?

[mindkontrolle]

The

[RCM - Ronan]

Mastering is a client service business. They have to deliver the clients wishes. If the top tier mastering guys/gals stopped doing what the clients want, it would be the best thing ever for the 2nd tier mastering engineers, because all the work would go to them.

Of course mastering engineers can make recommendations, but if they refuse to do the client wishes, they have lost a client.

Its strange that you seem to think that Calbi gave you two options to choose from. This strikes me as outstanding customer service. He is also experienced enough to know that when many people say they want their master to by "dynamic" that many of them just mean loud.

[Stitch333]

Someone VERY respected and knowledgeable I know told me an experience with a top tier NYC mastering engineer.
ME asks said producer to come in and listen to a finished mastering job.
Producer enters ME's suite and proceeds to listen for about 2 minutes...VERY loud mind you. Said producer mentions to TopShelf ME that the highs on one side of the monitors were gone. ME looks baffled, turns down volume, and suddenly realizes ALL the tweeters on one side of the room were blown, completely gone and unnoticed by Mr. TopShelf ME.
From then on, said producer masters their own work.
Stuff sounds EXCELLENT mastered by producer too!
The ME name mentioned really spun my head for a loop...


That said, the standard of relative loudness seems to be market driven.
Talk to the audience, the consumer audio manufacturers, etc not the people making the art.
Any ME who enjoys their job will, ultimately, either do what the client or label asks for or make a compromise of the middle ground between their professional expertise and client demand.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by rcm

Mastering is a client service business. They have to deliver the clients wishes.

Looks like as an industry we need to adopt this as a whole:

Primum non nocere

Which is Latin for "First, do no harm".

This is always attributed to the hippocratic oath even though its not really part of it.

It does include the phrase "to abstain from doing harm" which would apply to this as well.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Looks like as an industry we need to adopt this as a whole:

Primum non nocere

Which is Latin for "First, do no harm".

This is always attributed to the hippocratic oath even though its not really part of it.

It does include the phrase "to abstain from doing harm" which would apply to this as well.

It's like the whole tail wagging the dog thing. Really only education for the general public will help in my estimation. Most semi-informed hi-fi listeners are pretty aware of it. A lot of the hi-fi jazz and classical releases don't seem to fall into the loudness trap. It seems to be mostly a here today gone tomorrow pop thing. It's all in the same bag of cheap plastic, walmart tricks such as auto tuning, grid mapping and blowin it up realz good via the digital brick wall limiter. Cheap tricks, cheap commercial drivel. What are ya going to do?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by bcgood

It seems to be mostly a here today gone tomorrow pop thing.

No its definitely a here today and going to stay tomorrow kind of thing. You can equate it to the whole "3D" Avatar thing. For a long time every one considered 3D movies a novelty, but since avatar made 2 billion you will see more and more films made in this format.

The creeping loudness wars has been around since the days of the 45's & jukeboxes. Even then the hottest 45's in the jukeboxes got the most notice. In the late 70's early 80's the ME's who cut the hottest 12" for Radio and the Dance floors became superstars. I think the only difference between now and then is that at a certain point if you pushed it too far it just wouldn't sound good anymore and no A&R, program director or DJ would let it slide. Now those people are afraid to say anything.

[bcgood]

I'm well aware of the history of this topic Thrill. I mean that the final loud, hard to listen to product that results from the over use of brick wall limiting is a here today gone tomorrow product not the loudness war itself. Although I would like to think that as people become more educated that hopefully more releases will be engineered better and cause less ear fatigue for the listener but perhaps that is wishful thinking. Again, there are many genres and releases today that don't participate in the loudness war. Check out the just released Pat Metheny's - Orchestrion for instance.

[pasarski]

Originally Posted by Stitch333

Said producer mentions to TopShelf ME that the highs on one side of the monitors were gone. ME looks baffled, turns down volume, and suddenly realizes ALL the tweeters on one side of the room were blown, completely gone and unnoticed by Mr. TopShelf ME.

That could happen to anyone!

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by mindkontrolle

rcm: the "client service business" attitude will not get us far in the long run, I think we can all agree on that.

I do not agree with that, especially at the mastering stage. People have the idea that mastering engineers are all the bad guys in all of this, but they do what the clients tell them. They have to if they want to keep the shop open. The problem they have is that most of the clients want things smashed to the gills.

I can not imagine any mastering engineer getting upset if a producer or label said, "we would like you to master this, but do not reduce the dynamic range in any way". They would probably really enjoy the session.

As a producer, I do a wide range of work. From acoustic jazz to extreme metal. What is right for each project is different. Sometimes I ask mastering engineers to leave the dynamics as they are on the mix, other times I ask the mastering engineer to smash the bejesus out of it, because the band and I wanted that as part of our artistic vision. One of the great assets of using a 3rd party to master (I do a fair amount of mastering myself) is that the engineer can give me advice, such as "maybe we should limit that jazz stuff more to bring out the subtlety of the drums", or "if we limited the metal band less we could really get those kick drums to punch harder". This is really valuable to me, but at the end of the day, its my decision as the client and if a mastering engineer refused to push the record the direction I requested, they would never have to worry about having me as a client again. I am sure Sony Records has the same policy.

[ReSeRe]

Originally Posted by m127

OP

yeah, but let me know when you can convince a kid, through education or even hypnosis or torture, that candy is bad....

The loudness war was initiated by people with bad taste, ie, 99% of the human population.


Like we say in my country: "if you can't beat the enemy, join them"


I always ask for my masters in the 2 flavors, just so I can have the version I like to listen to.

Nevertheless, sometimes, I do secretly listen to the superloud version... Honestly, sometimes it's irresistible, just like a Corona with a twist of lime...

But then, my music goes well with murdered dynamics at times. Most music does not.

This a life lesson.
Don't any1 get me wrong:this reply by m127 is (at least part of) essence.
Anyway the OP was right somehow: in this services business, the client wasn't very happy, did he?

And hi all on GS. Great, helpful and full of life forum.
use to read a lot here. And i'm not going now, that i've became member, to talk a lot. I guess...

[metalfan8806]

Originally Posted by pasarski

That could happen to anyone!

i disagree. no way in hell could I listen through 2 minutes of client work and not notice that my gear was significantly damaged.

not to mention- i would just be embarrassing to have a producer come into your room and catch that before you.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Stitch333

Said producer mentions to TopShelf ME that the highs on one side of the monitors were gone. ME looks baffled, turns down volume, and suddenly realizes ALL the tweeters on one side of the room were blown

How many tweeters were there?

[kafka]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Which is Latin for "First, do no harm".

This is always attributed to the hippocratic oath even though its not really part of it.

It does include the phrase "to abstain from doing harm" which would apply to this as well.

Except, there is absolutely no harm whatsoever in making compressed, distorted mixes. This is art here, and not medicine, law, or food service. Whatever people like is the standard for what's good.

You may not like compressed, distorted mixes, but someone else does. I'm sure that someone thinks that there's something deeply wrong with distorted guitars, but let's face it, we've all grown accustomed to them.

[Daedalus77]

My experience working with several MEs, including guys at the top of the food-chain, from Sterling and elsewhere, is that they are generally committed to great customer service, are intent on giving the client (the artist, producer, or whomever) the results desired, will routinely offer several versions of the master, and are quite willing to revisit a master until they get it "right."

I also think comparing mastering engineers to physicians (as in the original post) is hyperbolic.

[minipoodle]

Like the rest of the recording business, mastering is a service profession. The job of these engineers is to do their best to fulfill the wishes of their client. All up and down the line people no longer know what good sound is. Many have never even heard it. The problem is with everyone- incompetent A&R, producers, groups, so-called engineers etc. If nobody is qualified to steer the ship then it is sunk from the beginning. This is the inevitable result of a society of "good enough" where all is subjective opinion.

[wwittman]

I''ve been mastering with Sterling for nearly 35 years

NONE of my records is "smashed"


if yours are, it's your fault, not theirs

[Eam]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

How many tweeters were there?

HEY BRO

Any legitimate mastering engineer will have at least 10 tweeters per channel to get an adequate high-end response. You of all people should know this.

[theskycouldfly]

Originally Posted by rcm

People have the idea that mastering engineers are all the bad guys in all of this, but they do what the clients tell them. They have to if they want to keep the shop open. The problem they have is that most of the clients want things smashed to the gills.

i totally agree.

think of it like this. when you have a house, family, bills, loans, etc. you need to do what you have to pay the bills, even if you don't totally agree with it. In the music business you could big one day, and nothing the next. I for one realize sometimes you have to take the person hit, to make ends meet.

thats my 2 cents. im gonna take a nap.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Eam

HEY BRO

Any legitimate mastering engineer will have at least 10 tweeters per channel to get an adequate high-end response.

10 minimum - the big guys use a bakers dozen

[nept]

if standard audio players would rms match everything played back through it, we'd have a different situation (and the current loundness war would be heard as what it is).


not that it would be (much?) better. a loudness war is equally possible on rms matched signals. let's blame physics (kind of sucks that I can't fly, srsly).

--- just thought about it, imo it would be much better with let's say to -20dB average rms matched playback.

[Stitch333]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

How many tweeters were there?

Hi Tom,
More than one set of monitors, guy.
Didn't I say, that was an experience someone related to me?

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Stitch333

Hi Tom,
More than one set of monitors, guy.
Didn't I say, that was an experience someone related to me?

I was joshin' ; )

Originally Posted by mindkontrolle

The fact is that people like Greg Calbi or Bob Ludwig, who appear to be the voice of reason in this loudness addiction, , do nothing to solve the problem in the field. They, just like the others, choose to wash their hands of all responsibility.

There are artist who choose to put out records that are more dynamic:
ie: John Frusciante, Wilco, Weezer, Guns and Roses. Iron Maiden, etc.

There are also tons of indy bands and artist who have no interest in being the loudest.

I personally get a more request to keep it conservative over "make it loud"

I tend to buy and listen to music that sounds good to me and avoid listening to records that sound like ass, as I'm sure others do as well.

The "loudness thing" seems like it's starting to get played out a bit? Outside of GS, I've personally never heard anyone mention it.

The bottom line is people are free to do what they see fit.
ME's are not twisting the arm of an artist or rec co. to make an uber loud record,
and no one is twisting the consumers arm to listen to it or buy it.

An ME telling a client that he or she will not make the record that the client ask for, is like an audio engineer telling a guitarist he will not record him unless he shuts his rat pedal off...ain't gonna happen... The control lie's in the person paying you to do what they hire you for.

Originally Posted by mindkontrolle

It's sad, but I believe time will weed out all these hypocrites for good. And who am I to talk trash about Calbi or anyone else? Who are you to cheerlead anybody, do you really understand what is happening here?

The guys you've mentioned have already proved to master some of the best sounding records in the world, and continue to do so. It's a bit unfair to label them or their contemporaries as hypocrities. Calbi just had a part in remastering Miles' "Kind of Blue" and Ludwig "Chinese Democracy" These are 2 examples of records that come no where near clipping and also are examples of the client getting exactly what they ask for.

[Sigma]

who needs mastering engineers today unless you are going to vinyl????????

it's a dying stand alone profession. ANY mix engineer worth 1/2 his salt can master

[Sword in Hand]

Aren't loud records partially a byproduct of cheap, low powered, stereo systems? If you increase the dynamic range you need, in my opinion, a much cleaner, higher powered, system. When the average music fan listens to their favorite smashed music, the higher RMS value allows them to keep the music loud, and their stereo's volume lower. If you wanted to play back a very dynamic piece and equal the RMS, the average system would probably choke or at least be fairly noisy and probably clip the dynamics at the power amp stage (almost defeating the purpose).

I think the average stereo systems (car, home, etc.) would have to come up a notch to really highlight greater dynamic music. Does this make any sense?

[Stitch333]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

I was joshin' ; )

Oh, that's funny!

I got a joke for ya, if we are kidding around:

Q - How many grammy's does it take to make a ME legitimate?
A - As many as it takes to balance the coffee tray that they carry to get to work with real artists and engineers!

budum-bum, crash!

[Knox]

sheesh . . this reminds me of an instance when I went to a good friend's studio to help him because he said he was having "troubles on a mix" (he is a past guitarist who is damn near deaf) . . has a Studer 24 track / Pro Tools / Trident console etc. He plays the mix for me and I'm stunned that there is no high end . . . tweeters in BOTH ns10s were totally blown and he was totally unaware! *smile*

Or the time one of my best friends called me over to his studio (he is a band member in one of the largest acts in the world) because he couldn't get his mix right . . . the console was in MONO and he was totally unaware! *smile*

btw . . I have had instances with a couple of well known mastering guys where I stated upfront I was completely uninterested in the loudness war and wanted to keep all the dynamics and headroom . . I just wanted simple tweaking and for them to fix any anomalies they may hear. The next thing I know . . they are reaching for stonewall limiting and trying to get maximum volume! This after they would tell me they hated all this "loudness BS from other mastering engineers". It seems that some of them don't know what to do if they DON'T squash the hell out of the tracks.

Originally Posted by Stitch333

Someone VERY respected and knowledgeable I know told me an experience with a top tier NYC mastering engineer.
ME asks said producer to come in and listen to a finished mastering job.
Producer enters ME's suite and proceeds to listen for about 2 minutes...VERY loud mind you. Said producer mentions to TopShelf ME that the highs on one side of the monitors were gone. ME looks baffled, turns down volume, and suddenly realizes ALL the tweeters on one side of the room were blown, completely gone and unnoticed by Mr. TopShelf ME.
From then on, said producer masters their own work.
Stuff sounds EXCELLENT mastered by producer too!
The ME name mentioned really spun my head for a loop...

[creegstor]

Originally Posted by Sigma

who needs mastering engineers today unless you are going to vinyl????????

it's a dying stand alone profession. ANY mix engineer worth 1/2 his salt can master

Hope you've got your flame suit on but I agree.

Also the notion of blaming mastering when most mixes are over-processed, over-compressed, and distorted to begin with is just missing the point.


And the relativistic bs of well somebody likes it so it's valid, is IMO an insidious, pervasive disease. Newsflash. Not everything is valid no matter how many people think it is.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by creegstor

Hope you've got your flame suit on but I agree.

Also the notion of blaming mastering when most mixes are over-processed, over-compressed, and distorted to begin with is just missing the point.


And the relativistic bs of well somebody likes it so it's valid, is IMO an insidious, pervasive disease. Newsflash. Not everything is valid no matter how many people think it is.

hahahahah..... mastering was an art form when it had to do with vinyl..my dad was partners in frankford/wayne when it first started and they were located in our bld in philly..we literally walked the 2 track down the hall for test pressings

those guys were amazing..tom steele actually did a comedy album where if you layed the needle on 1 groove it played 1 program and if on another it played a whole 'nuther program

dealing with sibilant program material ..inner band compensation..management of volume and bottom end in relation to program time..all an art form

today it's just a dude fiddling with tone controls and a compressor...

[DaVinci]

If I brought my classic muscle car into a boutique auto shop and asked them to fine tune it, suffice to say, I'd burn the place to the ground if I picked it up only to learn that the head mechanic had ripped out the engine and replaced it with an electric motor, and bolted solar panels to the top... I doubt highly that him explaining how stupid I am not to realize how superior electric cars are would sway me in the least.

If you want to become a big time ME and refuse to provide what 90% of the clients that come your way ask for out of self-righteous indignation at their ignorance, feel free...

... to be a snob who cares more about your own egocentric dogma than you do about servicing your client.

Now, if you feel so strongly personally about your quest to "save the music industry" by taking a stand against the injustice of loudness, and you simply cannot sleep at night knowing your name is attached to a mix that is the least bit contemporary in it's dynamics...

... then feel free to be an unencumbered artiste... but while you're standing in line at the soup kitchen, you may want to reconsider looking down your nose at those who have made a good living and a name for themselves by starting with providing what the client wants, and then taking it a step further by using their skill to deliver still more.


Actually, I was quite impressed with the idea that the ME offered two different alternatives... seems like excellent customer service and a good business practice to me.

[creegstor]

Originally Posted by Sigma

those guys were amazing..tom steele actually did a comedy album where if you layed the needle on 1 groove it played 1 program and if on another it played a whole 'nuther program

That's AWESOME! Art and Science!