Mastering Big Names = Hypocrites?

[Table Of Tone]

Most of my work comes in via producers and mix engineers.

They advise their clients to get me to finish their record off N put it together!

I guess they know and understand that another pair of ears on a project is a good thing?

I guess they think that mastering is indeed needed!

[kreeper_6]

Here's an Idea, how about everybody put their money where their mouth is.

Converge in a single city (Collective of Artists/Producers/ME's/Labels)
Lay down the rules
Release hit records
start a new sound that will last for decades

If not, then I suggest all to quit whining.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by masteringhouse

It's not that both types of listening don't overlap, they do, but it's more of a left right/brain thing with a mix engineer being a little more to the left (creative) ME to right (analytical).

You have some great ideas and points in that post. I did however want to point out that you got mixed up on which sides of the brain are logical or creative. The left side is logical and the right side is creative.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I had to post this correction to satisfy my obsessive desire for detail and truth.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by Sigma

Again ..i didn't intend to pop in on a mastering forum and tweak nutz

this was in the general forum and got moved..but my opinion is my opinion and we all have them

Ah, but tweak you have.

I noticed on your website that you offer mastering.

... and I quote:

"Mastering and Forensic Audio Enhancement
Clarity and optimum sound enrichment is the hallmark of our 1 and 2 track audio services. With a vast array of audio sweetening and defining technology, Mike Tarsia Recording has the means and experience to put the finishing touches on your music or forensic mastering projects. We have mastered for a variety of artists and done audio forensic work for law enforcement and legal clients. Mastering is the final touch to any audio presentation. At MTR, we are committed to providing you the highest quality in service."

I'm sure your mastering clients would find your "opinion" about "folding" mastering into the mixing process to be delightfully amusing.

'Specially right after they pay.

It's so nice out today I had to double check to see if it was April Fools day!


You sir, are a very complex man indeed.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Ah, but tweak you have.

I noticed on your website that you offer mastering.

... and I quote:

"Mastering and Forensic Audio Enhancement
Clarity and optimum sound enrichment is the hallmark of our 1 and 2 track audio services. With a vast array of audio sweetening and defining technology, Mike Tarsia Recording has the means and experience to put the finishing touches on your music or forensic mastering projects. We have mastered for a variety of artists and done audio forensic work for law enforcement and legal clients. Mastering is the final touch to any audio presentation. At MTR, we are committed to providing you the highest quality in service."

I'm sure your mastering clients would find your "opinion" about "folding" mastering into the mixing process to be delightfully amusing.

'Specially right after they pay.

It's so nice out today I had to double check to see if it was April Fools day!


You sir, are a very complex man indeed.

you keep pulling things out of context..i said "stand alone" mastering facilities aren't necessary

and i'm a mixer who masters..my website reflects that

[Masterer]

"Mastering and Forensic Audio Enhancement
Clarity and optimum sound enrichment is the hallmark of our 1 and 2 track audio services. With a vast array of audio sweetening and defining technology, Mike Tarsia Recording has the means and experience to put the finishing touches on your music or forensic mastering projects. We have mastered for a variety of artists and done audio forensic work for law enforcement and legal clients. Mastering is the final touch to any audio presentation. At MTR, we are committed to providing you the highest quality in service."


That's why I quoted the entire "mastering" paragraph if full. Those are your words, and your context.


In my opinion the context is crystal clear.

... and my opinion is my opinion. We all have them.

[streetbeats]

Originally Posted by Sigma

you keep pulling things out of context..i said "stand alone" mastering facilities aren't necessary

and i'm a mixer who masters..my website reflects that

so you say...."stand alone" mastering facilities aren't necessary.

what's your point again?

are pizzerias not necessary because you can get a great pizza from the italian restaurant?

what if Im someone who enjoys mastering more than I enjoy mixing?

if we all build tracking and mixing facilities next to our rooms will we be allowed to start mastering again?

NB: Did ever the quote in my signature ring more true than in this thread?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Sigma,

Here you go from my email today

GET MIXED BY A GRAMMY WINNER - FOR FREE!
This week's winner of the Friday Freebie will get a song mixed by one of the award-winning mix specialists at IndieProMix. Retail value: $500 to $2,500. IndieProMix (Indie Pro Mix - Connecting Pro Mixers & Indie Artists) was founded by six world-class mixers & producers with amazing credits (Christina Aguilera, Imogen Heap, Ice Cube, Michael Jackson, L7, Madonna, Matisyahu, Paul McCartney, Bruce Springsteen and many others), who love working with indie artists. So enter Music Connection's "Friday Freebie" giveaway now by going to the MC website and looking up in the top right corner for the words "FRIDAY FREEBIE." Winners are announced every Friday after 1 p.m. on the Friday Freebie page. Music Connection

Maybe next week they will offer a whole album mixed for free and it is really hard to compete with free.

You have been trying to say in this thread that mastering engineers are not needed but maybe the same can be said for mixing engineers. The average musician today is more than content to do everything themselves. You and your studio are needed to do mixing for a certain selection of people who need your services but how long will that need exist? Maybe music is headed to where it was in the 17th and 18th century where it was performed and enjoyed in people's homes. Maybe it is headed for downloads off the internet where the musician will do everything and then get feedback from their "fans". It is very hard to tell where it is headed and my crystal ball is out for service.

I will say that today there are WAY TOO MANY!!! mastering "engineers" for the number of people that seem to need mastering today. I know for a fact there are also too many recording studios for the number of people that need them. You may be doing well today offering the services that you do but who knows what tomorrow will bring? I have had to diversify our offerings just like many other studios. If you go to our website you can see what we offer. I would be much more content doing mastering all day with clients but that does not seem to be in the cards so we do what we can to stay working.

Best of luck on what you are doing currently and I hope it keeps happening for you.

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by bcgood

You have some great ideas and points in that post. I did however want to point out that you got mixed up on which sides of the brain are logical or creative. The left side is logical and the right side is creative.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I had to post this correction to satisfy my obsessive desire for detail and truth.

Oopsy, I guess that I had better leave brain surgery to a professional! ;-)

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Sigma,

Here you go from my email today

GET MIXED BY A GRAMMY WINNER - FOR FREE!
This week's winner of the Friday Freebie will get a song mixed by one of the award-winning mix specialists at IndieProMix. Retail value: $500 to $2,500. IndieProMix (Indie Pro Mix - Connecting Pro Mixers & Indie Artists) was founded by six world-class mixers & producers with amazing credits (Christina Aguilera, Imogen Heap, Ice Cube, Michael Jackson, L7, Madonna, Matisyahu, Paul McCartney, Bruce Springsteen and many others), who love working with indie artists. So enter Music Connection's "Friday Freebie" giveaway now by going to the MC website and looking up in the top right corner for the words "FRIDAY FREEBIE." Winners are announced every Friday after 1 p.m. on the Friday Freebie page. Music Connection

Maybe next week they will offer a whole album mixed for free.

your cable runs are messy Acoustik Musik Ltd: Audio and Digital Audio Mastering, Audio Restoration, Media Transfers, Radio-Show Production, Audio Technical Support, and Forensic work: Located in Oberlin, OH just outside Cleveland!


LOL

i don't give away mixes...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Sigma

your cable runs are messy Acoustik Musik Ltd: Audio and Digital Audio Mastering, Audio Restoration, Media Transfers, Radio-Show Production, Audio Technical Support, and Forensic work: Located in Oberlin, OH just outside Cleveland!


LOL

i don't give away mixes...

Cheap shot...but thanks for the free advert.

[b0ssa]

The idea that the client can tell the engineer what to do is rediculous. They should give some idea as to what they want, but to tell the ME what to do is presumptuous and just stupid. It'd be like me telling a car manufacturer that I want my new car made a certain way and to go 3x faster than the roads allow.. not to mention my brakes would only still be working at the normal 1x ratio. I doubt the car maker would listen to me. You may as well just point the client to the mastering studio and let em at it themselves.

Would a patron tell a famous artist that they only want red, and nothing else, used in their paintings?

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by b0ssa

The idea that the client can tell the engineer what to do is rediculous. They should give some idea as to what they want, but to tell the ME what to do is presumptuous and just stupid. It'd be like me telling a car manufacturer that I want my new car made a certain way and to go 3x faster than the roads allow.. not to mention my brakes would only still be working at the normal 1x ratio. I doubt the car maker would listen to me. You may as well just point the client to the mastering studio and let em at it themselves.

Would a patron tell a famous artist that they only want red, and nothing else, used in their paintings?

if he's paying for it ...YES

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by b0ssa

The idea that the client can tell the engineer what to do is rediculous. They should give some idea as to what they want, but to tell the ME what to do is presumptuous and just stupid. It'd be like me telling a car manufacturer that I want my new car made a certain way and to go 3x faster than the roads allow.. not to mention my brakes would only still be working at the normal 1x ratio. I doubt the car maker would listen to me. You may as well just point the client to the mastering studio and let em at it themselves.

Would a patron tell a famous artist that they only want red, and nothing else, used in their paintings?

Bad example as cars are regulated by the government so the individual really has no say in upping the horsepower or changing the breaking system unless it is within established guide lines.

As you your question about the artist and patron...think back to the Sistine Chapel and all the problems between Pope Julius II and Michelangelo. Sistine Chapel ceiling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and I think you will understand what really takes place between an artist and patron.

Lots of clients think they know more about mastering than they really do and some come in with some really wild ideas that they have garnered off the WWW or of the pages of one of the popular audio magazines. Some try to be somewhat knowledgeable when they come in for a session. Some think they ARE the mastering engineer and you are just a part of the equipment and after they tell you everything they want you to do you start to wonder why they just don't do it themselves.

What ever floats your boat. YMMV

[b0ssa]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Bad example as cars are regulated by the government so the individual really has no say in upping the horsepower or changing the breaking system unless it is within established guide lines.

As you your question about the artist and patron...think back to the Sistine Chapel and all the problems between Pope Julius II and Michelangelo. Sistine Chapel ceiling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and I think you will understand what really takes place between an artist and patron.

Lots of clients think they know more about mastering than they really do and some come in with some really wild ideas that they have garnered off the WWW or of the pages of one of the popular audio magazines. Some try to be somewhat knowledgeable when they come in for a session. Some think they ARE the mastering engineer and you are just a part of the equipment and after they tell you everything they want you to do you start to wonder why they just don't do it themselves.

What ever floats your boat. YMMV

My main point is that the problem is that people who don't know the likely consequences (on the product) of their demands should really just stay out of it when it comes to making extreme decisions.

I have a degree in Fine Arts and have been a professional painter in my time, exhibiting all over Australia and I am aware of what what can happen in commercial and National Gallery environments. The comparison with MA and the pope is off the mark really as that was the beginning of the era where artists were to become seen as individuals with a particularly valuable style and insight. In those days, you had to develop artistically within the context of whatever the institutions of the day would allow within the works they commissioned. It was a time where the church and state were not separate (as they are today) and artists had to serve the religious values of the time and make gradual change in ways that may not have been all that apparent to the patrons at that time.

To categorize a mastering engineer as an artist, let alone a great one, is a joke to say the least. That's like saying the guy who polishes your car is on a par with the people who designed and made it. Practically any commercial artist could be equated with a modern commercial recording production environment but I doubt a 'fine' artist like De Kooning would've liked being told what to do. Most modern 'artists' would tell you to piss off if you tried telling them anything at all.

[Adib]

Originally Posted by bcgood

You have some great ideas and points in that post. I did however want to point out that you got mixed up on which sides of the brain are logical or creative. The left side is logical and the right side is creative.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I had to post this correction to satisfy my obsessive desire for detail and truth.

Sorry to point this out but that is incorrect - neither side of your brain is more or less creative than the other. It's a myth based on pseudo-science. It is widely accepted amongst neurologists that the different sides of the brain differ in the way that they analyse data (one in a more broad manner, the other more detailed), not in their creative application!

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by dibble

Sorry to point this out but that is incorrect - neither side of your brain is more or less creative than the other. It's a myth based on pseudo-science. It is widely accepted amongst neurologists that the different sides of the brain differ in the way that they analyse data (one in a more broad manner, the other more detailed), not in their creative application!

I think you miss the point. Although the idea of lateralization of the brain indicating creativity or logic is a theory and may not even be true; if someone refers to that theory the theory clearly indicates that the right side of the brain is considered creative and the left logical. It's as simple as that. I was simply correcting the mix up of sides according to the theory not in any way promoting or validating the theory.

Just think of it this way. Suppose you are playing Monopoly. You have to follow the rules of that game even if they don't make sense to you or seem unrealistic to you. Hopefully this explanation clears up this issue for you and allows you to fully comprehend my awesomeness.

Just having some fun. Don't get mad, get glad! YEA!!!

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Wrong.

Objectivity.

That should be obvious, but I guess it ain't to some.

Accomplished professionals young and old know this. That's why the rely on their favorite ME's to bring their records together.

It's not necessary. It's a choice.

I love how people like to point to the Iron Maiden comment as proof that mastering with an ME is unnecessary yet I see Kevin Shirley at Sterling all the time.

Nice fellow. Definitely knows what he's doing.

Wanna master yourself?

Knock yourself out babe.

Exactly that

[Adib]

Originally Posted by bcgood

I think you miss the point. Although the idea of lateralization of the brain indicating creativity or logic is a theory and may not even be true; if someone refers to that theory the theory clearly indicates that the right side of the brain is considered creative and the left logical. It's as simple as that. I was simply correcting the mix up of sides according to the theory not in any way promoting or validating the theory.

Just think of it this way. Suppose you are playing Monopoly. You have to follow the rules of that game even if they don't make sense to you or seem unrealistic to you. Hopefully this explanation clears up this issue for you and allows you to fully comprehend my awesomeness.

Just having some fun. Don't get mad, get glad! YEA!!!

Im not mad . I just thought that if that theory is still being quoted then it should be made clear that it is incorrect. Although yes, my comment should have been directed at the original user that you were referring to. I was just flicking through the thread and spotted your post!

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by dibble

Im not mad . I just thought that if that theory is still being quoted then it should be made clear that it is incorrect. Although yes, my comment should have been directed at the original user that you were referring to. I was just flicking through the thread and spotted your post!

It's been a long time since I've taken Psych 101 so apologies if the theory has since been proven false or my memory of the details hazy. The purpose of this part of the post was to describe the differences in thought processes between an ME and mix engineer. It's just as inaccurate to generalize that MEs are OCD and mix engineers are ADD, however the underlying point that I was attempting to explain stands.

Atoms and planets are not plastic balls on sticks orbiting around another but just a model for discussion. Let's not let the specifics of the analogy dilute the focus of the points being made.

Best,
Tom

[Virtalahde]

Let me quote myself from a while back:

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

If I was a pizza boy, I wouldn't deliver a ½ cheese veggie pizza to someone who ordered a salami pizza with extra lard and a defibrillator, just because "it is healthier for you".

It's truly amazing to see how people don't understand this is a service industry. Sure, some guys smash it without asking but in the end it's a clients responsibility to make sure the product is what they want.

[Peakly]

Originally Posted by Sigma

tell me what qualities a mastering engineer posses that a mix engineer doesn't.

Good grammar and spelling.

Respectful attitude towards other professions.

Fresh ears and experience.


Mychal

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Peakly

Good grammar and spelling.

Respectful attitude towards other professions.

Fresh ears and experience.


Mychal

[Table Of Tone]

Oh dear!
This has really turned into one of those "KA KA" threads!

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by Peakly

Good grammar and spelling.

Respectful attitude towards other professions.

Fresh ears and experience.


Mychal

Post of the year.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by b0ssa

My main point is that the problem is that people who don't know the likely consequences (on the product) of their demands should really just stay out of it when it comes to making extreme decisions.

I have a degree in Fine Arts and have been a professional painter in my time, exhibiting all over Australia and I am aware of what what can happen in commercial and National Gallery environments. The comparison with MA and the pope is off the mark really as that was the beginning of the era where artists were to become seen as individuals with a particularly valuable style and insight. In those days, you had to develop artistically within the context of whatever the institutions of the day would allow within the works they commissioned. It was a time where the church and state were not separate (as they are today) and artists had to serve the religious values of the time and make gradual change in ways that may not have been all that apparent to the patrons at that time.

To categorize a mastering engineer as an artist, let alone a great one, is a joke to say the least. That's like saying the guy who polishes your car is on a par with the people who designed and made it. Practically any commercial artist could be equated with a modern commercial recording production environment but I doubt a 'fine' artist like De Kooning would've liked being told what to do. Most modern 'artists' would tell you to piss off if you tried telling them anything at all.

I could be mean and say Professional Painter, what kinds of houses do you paint? but I know what you mean so I won't do it.

I think there were some really horrendous fights between the Pope and Michelangelo but I think that Michelangelo was a true professional so he was able to do what he needed to do and still please the Pope.

Today in America we use the term "artist" rather loosely when talking about musicians. It can mean anything from Yo Yo Ma to the guy down the street who plays a guitar in the local restaurant on Friday and Saturday nights.

Comparing a mastering engineer to an artist is probably not correct but what some mastering engineers can do for a song is more art than science so are they an artist or engineer?

Bob Katz's favorite phrase is "mastering is both an art and a science" which is very true for most good mastering engineers.

Think whatever you want to and do what ever you want to.

Best of luck! and let us know how the house painting is coming along <GRIN>

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by kreeper_6

Here's an Idea, how about everybody put their money where their mouth is.

Converge in a single city (Collective of Artists/Producers/ME's/Labels)
Lay down the rules
Release hit records
start a new sound that will last for decades

If not, then I suggest all to quit whining.

The city is Nashville and all of that has been going on there for years!

[Silvertone]

None of these services are really needed are they?... mixing, mastering, knowing how to track in the first place... but then again quality would surely be "hit and miss" and in the end the consumer might get confused and may stop buying the product at all... oops, oh wait, did this already happen??? Sh*t... late to the party again!

Welcome to the world we live in.

Do your best work and people who "really care" will seek YOU out!

At least I go to bed happy every night knowing I did the best work possible I could on any given project... certainly makes for a betters night sleep.

Good luck everyone!

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Post of the year.

I agree but there ain't gonna be no convincing this guy so I'll see to you chaps latter!

[Jerry Tubb]

tell me what qualities a mastering engineer posses that a mix engineer doesn't.

Originally Posted by Peakly

Good grammar and spelling.

Respectful attitude towards other professions.

Fresh ears and experience.

Mychal

Nicely done Mychal!

JT