Loudness war for libraries?

J R · 8th February 2010

I've just finished recording a bunch of songs that will ultimately go out to a music library or something along that line, maybe Taxi? who knows.

Anyway my question is, are the loudness wars being played out in this field as well? When it comes time to mix/master this stuff am I going to be battling it out at -0.1 peaks and -8 or higher rms for a spot on the roster so to speak?
Some things that I hear on tv. or where ever do sound double slammed while other stuff not so much.

I'd much rather keep everything at -12 or lower but if everyone else is pounding the daylights out of their stuff then I guess I'll have to as well.

Some of it is acoustic guitar as lead instrument in the mix and may not lend itself to my limiting plus the double limiting of radio or tv. very well?

Thanks, Rick

Thor · 8th February 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by J R

I'd much rather keep everything at -12 or lower but if everyone else is pounding the daylights out of their stuff then I guess I'll have to as well.

Why? There's no reason or logic in what you just said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J R

Some of it is acoustic guitar as lead instrument in the mix and may not lend itself to my limiting plus the double limiting of radio or tv. very well?

Thanks, Rick

Definitely not. If you leave headroom, both people using the material, as well as broadcasters and others have the option to compress/limit or not. That way you give them a little bit more control (and maybe better sound in the end result).

That said, I have no idea what's normal in that branch of the industry, but I'm sure someone will chime in.

Cheers,
Thor

J R · 9th February 2010

Thanks for the reply Thor.

The logic/reason is, I prefer to leave lots of headroom, but if everyone else's mixes are louder than mine do they have a possible advantage, the likes of what Bob Ohlsson has mentioned could happen in A&R meetings?

What I mean, is that I would rather not compress or limit for loudness. I'd rather stay at reasonable levels which to me is -12 rms or thereabouts instead of pushing things up to -8 or wherever, but if everyone else is quite a bit louder then I would be a bit worried that my mixes will sound a little weak to the ones making the decisions.

From what I understand there are limitations on peak levels for tv. radio etc. but what is everyone sending to the libraries and Taxi for instance?

From what I can see, a site like Pump Audio has no mention of levels.

Thanks, Rick

Sunbreak Music · 9th February 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by J R

Thanks for the reply Thor.

The logic/reason is, I prefer to leave lots of headroom, but if everyone else's mixes are louder than mine do they have a possible advantage, the likes of what Bob Ohlsson has mentioned could happen in A&R meetings?

What I mean, is that I would rather not compress or limit for loudness. I'd rather stay at reasonable levels which to me is -12 rms or thereabouts instead of pushing things up to -8 or wherever, but if everyone else is quite a bit louder then I would be a bit worried that my mixes will sound a little weak to the ones making the decisions.

From what I understand there are limitations on peak levels for tv. radio etc. but what is everyone sending to the libraries and Taxi for instance?

From what I can see, a site like Pump Audio has no mention of levels.

Thanks, Rick

I'm leaving them room to do their thing.

J R · 9th February 2010

Thanks Cass.

So, no concerns at all about sounding a little weak compared to others?

I know it should all be about the content and not the volume or whatever else, but this hearing/brain relationship thing seems pretty fragile

I think I will end up doing the same as you though.

Thanks, Rick

Sunbreak Music · 9th February 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by J R

Thanks Cass.

So, no concerns at all about sounding a little weak compared to others?

I know it should all be about the content and not the volume or whatever else, but this hearing/brain relationship thing seems pretty fragile

I think I will end up doing the same as you though.

Thanks, Rick

I didn't say I don't have concerns.

What style of music is it?

J R · 9th February 2010

What style of music is it?[/QUOTE]

For the most part I guess I'd have to call them a light pop style.
They are instrumentals and some have acoustic lead guitar while some others are a light rock style as well. There really is quite a mix when I think about it. Most of them are what I guess you would call full production with lots of instrumentation.

I guess in the vein that they are in it would be wise to not slam them.

Thought I'd try the library idea for a change from trying to write songs for other artists who all seem to be writing their own these days.

Rick

Sunbreak Music · 9th February 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by J R

What style of music is it?

For the most part I guess I'd have to call them a light pop style.
They are instrumentals and some have acoustic lead guitar while some others are a light rock style as well. There really is quite a mix when I think about it. Most of them are what I guess you would call full production with lots of instrumentation.

I guess in the vein that they are in it would be wise to not slam them.

Thought I'd try the library idea for a change from trying to write songs for other artists who all seem to be writing their own these days.

Rick[/QUOTE]

That sounds like what I do. If it were metal and going to "World's Greatest Whatever" on FX channel I'd hit it pretty hard, but for pop stuff like you're describing I'd just find something popular in the style, and use it as reference.

Most of this stuff is done along the lines of "make it sound like (insert mega-hit here)" but change something about it so it's not obvious. ;-)

lowland · 9th February 2010

I master up to about 150 library music albums a year, and although I get occasional composer requests to make things very loud to be competitive, usually reason prevails and on pop/rock stuff I'm around the sweet spot where that kind of material sits well, generally within hailing distance of -12. I have been known to push some of the dance stuff a little harder, but it's entirely material-dependent: I rarely look at RMS meters and just try and do what the music asks for.

I have a mark on the volume control for my 'calibrated' level, and in the time I've been using it it's made a big difference to consistency of output and knowing how far to push things - I also have a selection of CD tracks on a Masterlink hard drive and sometimes play those back through the same DAC as the workstation to check things like real-world levels. I'd like to think I'm doing something right, library music via here is frequently on the telly and the production companies seem happy enough.

J R · 9th February 2010

Thanks for the info guys.

Actually, it never crossed my mind to make the loudness dependant upon which type of music it might be and I think that will be the best way to go.

Stay around the -12 or so for pop and similar genres, and if it was a heavier rock or metal then push it a bit. Good info!

Thanks again, Rick

bitmob · 9th February 2010

The quality of production and the song itself is much more important than how loud it is. I've heard plenty of tracks get placed (library or custom) that haven't even been mastered yet.

Not to discount the importance of mastering, but it's the raw truth. When it comes down to it they want what's going to be cheap if it's not an incredibly high budget. Hell I know of custom tracks that have been in some major national ads that were never mastered. In the realm of music that isn't specifically for sync, skimping on mastering is NOT an option.

talco · 10th February 2010

Hi,
I mix a lot of stuff for a certain library in L.A. What I do for them is when I mix I put my mastering chain (in PT) on the master buss and output my mix as hot as it will go without making the sonics suffer. There's never a mastering stage with this client so the mix is mastered as part of the mix process. I usually have a ref track that i'm using stylistically so I base my "mastering" on the ref and try to match vibe and levels to that if possible. Don't you just love trying to match up a mix recorded for an album with a big budget and mastered by someone great with tracks recorded at someone's home studio in 2-4 hours!

J R · 10th February 2010

[QUOTE=bitmob;5090878]The quality of production and the song itself is much more important than how loud it is. I've heard plenty of tracks get placed (library or custom) that haven't even been mastered yet.

Though I'm a little concerned of getting passed over for other louder mixes, (if and when the opportunity arises) I'm going to go for quality over loudness and see what happens. Also, maybe the guys presenting the unmastered mixes are already well established in this part of the business?

Too bad quality isn't a factor in some of todays major releases.

Talco,
Not only am I trying to match the mixing and mastering to the big boys, I also wrote the damn material so it seems to be even harder.
Problem is, is that there is no money at this point to pay for outside help.
I would definately prefer to do just the writing and the tracking and have someone else look after the mixing and someone again looking after getting the material into the right hands.
I'm too old now to worry about it, but someday I'll have someone to do all this for me.

Thanks for the replies, Rick

UnderTow · 11th February 2010

I'm often at the receiving end mixing the music with the rest. I much prefer stuff that isn't too slammed and it usually sounds better on air. Sometimes there are surreal situations where a big budget slammed hit is followed by some unknown library track and the library track ends up sounding cleaner on air because it gets through the processing much better.

I doubt level plays too much of a consideration when the editor/directors chose the music. They are looking for vibe and atmosphere to support the on screen action. Levels are rather irrelevant. In the unusual cases when music is added in audio post (rather than video post), none of the libraries I hear (whether online or on CD) sound slammed in any way.

On the other hand, I have sometimes requested that a commercial track be replaced because it just sounds so bad because of the slamming... You don't want that happening with your library music now do you?

Alistair

J R · 12th February 2010

On the other hand, I have sometimes requested that a commercial track be replaced because it just sounds so bad because of the slamming... You don't want that happening with your library music now do you?

Alistair[/QUOTE]

Thanks Alistair

I'm definately going stay on the clean side of things. I'm just surprised that louder isn't the norm. Considering the amount of writers there must be, I would think that it would be the usual, "maybe if mine is a bit louder then it may stick out a bit better" deal.
I can understand what you're saying though and I plan on heeding the advice!

At this point in time, in my up and down career, ( all forty years of it, off and on ) I'd be happy if my track got picked for "any" reason. :-0

Thanks again, Rick

Table Of Tone · 13th February 2010

Listen dude, just make it sound good.
Don't be worrying too much about making it super loud.

This loudness thing has been going on for 60 years now!

It will always be there and there will always be clients who want it slammed but in real terms, it actually matters less these days.

Even some of the big guys are starting to pull back a little, compaired to what they themselves were cutting six or seven years ago!

8th February 2010	#1
J R Gear Head Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 39 Thread Starter	Loudness war for libraries? I've just finished recording a bunch of songs that will ultimately go out to a music library or something along that line, maybe Taxi? who knows. Anyway my question is, are the loudness wars being played out in this field as well? When it comes time to mix/master this stuff am I going to be battling it out at -0.1 peaks and -8 or higher rms for a spot on the roster so to speak? Some things that I hear on tv. or where ever do sound double slammed while other stuff not so much. I'd much rather keep everything at -12 or lower but if everyone else is pounding the daylights out of their stuff then I guess I'll have to as well. Some of it is acoustic guitar as lead instrument in the mix and may not lend itself to my limiting plus the double limiting of radio or tv. very well? Thanks, Rick

9th February 2010	#9
lowland Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Essex UK Posts: 674 Verified Member	I master up to about 150 library music albums a year, and although I get occasional composer requests to make things very loud to be competitive, usually reason prevails and on pop/rock stuff I'm around the sweet spot where that kind of material sits well, generally within hailing distance of -12. I have been known to push some of the dance stuff a little harder, but it's entirely material-dependent: I rarely look at RMS meters and just try and do what the music asks for. I have a mark on the volume control for my 'calibrated' level, and in the time I've been using it it's made a big difference to consistency of output and knowing how far to push things - I also have a selection of CD tracks on a Masterlink hard drive and sometimes play those back through the same DAC as the workstation to check things like real-world levels. I'd like to think I'm doing something right, library music via here is frequently on the telly and the production companies seem happy enough. __________________ Nigel Palmer Lowland Masters www.lowlandmasters.com

11th February 2010	#14
UnderTow Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 3,557 Verified Member	I'm often at the receiving end mixing the music with the rest. I much prefer stuff that isn't too slammed and it usually sounds better on air. Sometimes there are surreal situations where a big budget slammed hit is followed by some unknown library track and the library track ends up sounding cleaner on air because it gets through the processing much better. I doubt level plays too much of a consideration when the editor/directors chose the music. They are looking for vibe and atmosphere to support the on screen action. Levels are rather irrelevant. In the unusual cases when music is added in audio post (rather than video post), none of the libraries I hear (whether online or on CD) sound slammed in any way. On the other hand, I have sometimes requested that a commercial track be replaced because it just sounds so bad because of the slamming... You don't want that happening with your library music now do you? Alistair __________________ Alistair Johnston - TV & Film Post, Mastering, Sound Design -- "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool" -- Richard P. Feynman "There's a sucker born every minute" -- P.T. Barnum

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9th February 2010	#11
bitmob Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 122	The quality of production and the song itself is much more important than how loud it is. I've heard plenty of tracks get placed (library or custom) that haven't even been mastered yet. Not to discount the importance of mastering, but it's the raw truth. When it comes down to it they want what's going to be cheap if it's not an incredibly high budget. Hell I know of custom tracks that have been in some major national ads that were never mastered. In the realm of music that isn't specifically for sync, skimping on mastering is NOT an option.

10th February 2010	#12
talco Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 53	Hi, I mix a lot of stuff for a certain library in L.A. What I do for them is when I mix I put my mastering chain (in PT) on the master buss and output my mix as hot as it will go without making the sonics suffer. There's never a mastering stage with this client so the mix is mastered as part of the mix process. I usually have a ref track that i'm using stylistically so I base my "mastering" on the ref and try to match vibe and levels to that if possible. Don't you just love trying to match up a mix recorded for an album with a big budget and mastered by someone great with tracks recorded at someone's home studio in 2-4 hours!

12th February 2010	#15
J R Gear Head Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 39 Thread Starter	On the other hand, I have sometimes requested that a commercial track be replaced because it just sounds so bad because of the slamming... You don't want that happening with your library music now do you? Alistair[/QUOTE] Thanks Alistair I'm definately going stay on the clean side of things. I'm just surprised that louder isn't the norm. Considering the amount of writers there must be, I would think that it would be the usual, "maybe if mine is a bit louder then it may stick out a bit better" deal. I can understand what you're saying though and I plan on heeding the advice! At this point in time, in my up and down career, ( all forty years of it, off and on ) I'd be happy if my track got picked for "any" reason. :-0 Thanks again, Rick

13th February 2010	#16
Table Of Tone Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,560 Verified Member	Listen dude, just make it sound good. Don't be worrying too much about making it super loud. This loudness thing has been going on for 60 years now! It will always be there and there will always be clients who want it slammed but in real terms, it actually matters less these days. Even some of the big guys are starting to pull back a little, compaired to what they themselves were cutting six or seven years ago!