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17th February 2010
| #31 |
| Gear addict  Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London U.K.
Posts: 323
Thread Starter Verified Member | Ok, I got a very informative reply from GML. However, I did get the obvious answer "buy the mastering version" the only problem with that is that it costs twice as much  .Here's the reply from Jeff Warren: "Hello, Thanks for contacting me. And, congratulations on your recent purchase, although I'm sorry to hear the unit is not operating exactly how you want it to. We strongly encourage mastering clients and others requiring high precision to consider the Model 9500 rather than the Model 8200. The 9500 employs switches and discrete resistors for all controls and thus provides not only L/R matching but also consistency across the entire production history of the unit and vanishingly low distortion performance. Because the 8200 employs potentiometers, the front panel markings can only ever be approximate. L/R matching depends on various components, each with its own tolerance (5 or 10% in capacitors, 1% resistors). The controls themselves have the widest tolerance (10%); however, this only specifies end-to-end (total resistance) tolerance: anything is possible between the full-ccw and full-cw positions, especially for a non-linear taper. Also, keep in mind when looking at L/R matching that all three controls (level, frequency and bandwidth/shape) matter -- including, naturally, their tolerances. While the only solid guarantee for L/R matching is to use switches with discrete resistors, GML production attempts to provide L/R matching so far as is practical by selecting controls in matched pairs to be inserted in the same position of each channel. The effectiveness of this measure, however, is limited by the reality of non-idealized potentiometers. Noting this, conducting a post-manufacture hand-matching procedure to establish marginally improved L/R matching is certainly possible -- but is likely to be judged cost-prohibitive. Best regards, Jeff ===== Jeffrey Warren GML, LLC. Nashville, TN USA www.massenburg." Although I really appreciate Jeff's informative email, I guess it sums it all up. Not the reply I was hoping to get form the creators of the "Parametric Equalizer offers astonishing precision and sonic accuracy when sculpting the response of any source." a it says in the manual. Interesting, as I said, my Mass Pass and IBIS are not that off... I think I may pass... 
__________________ Orgone Mastering |
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18th February 2010
| #32 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Posts: 2,656
| Quote:
GML needs some 
__________________ Render Thoughts Visible | |
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18th February 2010
| #33 | |
| Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London U.K.
Posts: 323
Thread Starter Verified Member | Quote:
A friend of mine was telling how his old version was fine (the one with toggle switches)... then he got a newer one and he just sold it as he had exactly the same problem I have now... I REALLY didn't expect that from GML. I was expecting the ultimate presicion tools, (as they advertise them). Same goes for Cranesong - 3 dead IBIS's in the last 6 months (2 were mine, 1 was my friends). I also find the mids unusable on it, not to mention the "ringing of death" that comes out of a not-even-that-narrow Q... and their support and was rather rude. Sorry about ranting... just disappointed about "high end gear" that get SO much hype over here. Too many sales people in this forum.  | |
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18th February 2010
| #34 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Posts: 2,656
| Well, believe it or not I had a problem with my Massive Passive that's similar to yours (ok maybe not...) The left side was 10dB louder..  As a matter of fact I am waiting to pick up my replacement unit next week after... 6 months of delay because Manley's authorized service in Germany failed to fix it...Thank God you have brought this up about the GML because it was in my purchase list. Ibis too? Damn, what am I going to buy now? That's why I suggested the Weiss. |
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19th February 2010
| #35 |
| Moderator  Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chino, CA (cowtown)
Posts: 671
| Mr. Darkness, Regarding your Massive Passive it is unfortunate that your dealer had lost its tech last year for several months. Unfortunate again was their decision to send it to Germany for repair instead of sending it back to us because the Germans were unable to find the problem (although I must note that they did a good job of burning lots of wires in the unit and disrupting a solder joint at the output cap, causing the secondary intermittency problem.) I'm sorry it took so long, this whole saga. I know that my serviceman, Paul Fargo, always replied to you and to your dealer within 24 hours so I won't take the blame for the delay, but I will accept blame for the initial noise level problem which was a resistor that failed after you received it. We stood by you and by our product and considering the extreme delay you suffered, went ahead and replaced the unit as you requested. Regarding tolerances, and where and why they exist in analog gear, I could not describe the situation better than Jeffrey Warren. It is a given that potentiometers will never match as well as discrete resistor switching. And your computer plugins will match perfectly. |
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19th February 2010
| #36 | |
| Gear maniac  Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 176
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__________________ "Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything." — Plato | |
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19th February 2010
| #37 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: 3rd Stone From The Sun
Posts: 2,862
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19th February 2010
| #38 | |
| Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 176
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19th February 2010
| #39 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hollywood CA
Posts: 2,492
Verified Member | Quote:
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19th February 2010
| #40 | |
| Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 176
| Quote:
*Edit* Also, when I tried bringing up the left output to match the right, I heard a buzzing sound. If that didn't happen, I wouldn't have had a problem with keeping it. Last edited by SSMastering; 19th February 2010 at 04:28 AM.. Reason: important fact missing | |
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19th February 2010
| #41 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hollywood CA
Posts: 2,492
Verified Member | Quote:
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19th February 2010
| #42 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2,659
Verified Member | Quote:
Also keep in mind the tubes often require re seating after shipping, and may go microphonic. Most tube gear requires calibration every 6 months or so.
__________________ Studios 301 | |
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19th February 2010
| #43 |
| Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 176
| Whatever the problem was, I'm happy with my API. If I had the money, I'd go with Manley. I should start off with lower-level gear, then work my way up once I learn more about proper maintenance. |
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19th February 2010
| #44 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2,659
Verified Member | Yeah the API is probably more versatile... |
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19th February 2010
| #45 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Southern California
Posts: 643
| Quote:
I have my 8200 on the mix bus, and I love it. It's so clear, but not like a digital eq. Warmer and more musical. The controls all feel great to me - smooth and solid. I compared it to several other eqs, digital and analog, and I kept this one because it just feels and sounds good. Mastering would be tricky with it, for all the reasons stated in this thread. But for other uses, it's great sounding and dependable. Mychal | |
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19th February 2010
| #46 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Posts: 2,656
| Quote:
thanks a lot for clarifying this. I wanted to send you an email to complain about what's happening but after sending dozens of emails (to Paul who after September or so hadn't had another email from my dealer considering the problem), I got desparate. I phoned my dealer so many times that I can honestly say that you need to consider the possibility of finding a new dealer. It's not so much of the extreme delay, it's not because of their inability to deal with the problem in a professional manner, it's not because the Germans made the unit worse than it was (I asked the technician whether they tested it when they received it from Germany and he said that it still had a problem, so obviously they have tried to fix it themselves and failed miserably, although they have said that it sounds ok after testing it in a mastering studio - I found that the MP was completely f7cked up in 10 seconds). It's because NO-ONE had the courtesy to say "I am sorry about this". I would like to ask whether it's Manley's policy to fix a unit or replace a unit once a problem is found? How does the dealer interfere with this? Paul told me that you'd be glad to offer a replacement but that my dealer needs to ask this. Why is that? Was it because it was my MP had a modification? Having said that, I still love my MP and still waiting for it to return home. I have in mind to buy more Manley gear but certainly not from this dealer. There are dozens of good dealers and this is certainly not one of them. Believe me, when I say that they ruin your reputation. Kind regads, Yannis Kazlaris Last edited by OurDarkness; 19th February 2010 at 03:25 PM.. Reason: Typo | |
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19th February 2010
| #47 | |
| Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London U.K.
Posts: 323
Thread Starter Verified Member | Quote:
I have to say that my massive works great and the support in your company has always been brilliant, I'm a fan. What I don't get is what you're saying above. I was under the assumption that a "stereo" units can be used for stereo applications. I think it's totally fair if both channels are not exactly the same (and in fact I think those imperfections add to the vibe of analog gear IMO), but I'd imagine they should be close enough. My massive is really good in that respect, and the IBIS is not too bad, but the differences in my GML 8200 are way too much. We're talking several dB's. I think some manufacturers are charging us a hell of a lot of money for units that have not been properly calibrated in the factory or has not been built to the high standard they used to. Sounds like some of the "high end gear" companies have grown (which is great) the quality control has dropped, but the price tag remains the same. I think this is unfair. I mean, my Cranesong units doesn't even seem to have a CE certification  I think saying "buy the mastering version" is not fair either... I thought the Massive for example, is the same as the standard version with different filter settings and stepped pots - the mastering GML (whatever is called) seems like a completely different EQ than the 8200, so why should I buy the mastering version? it ONLY costs twice as much. Maybe for some people it's fine, but I have to work a hell of a lot to buy one of these units and when the time comes to actually buy it, it doesn't deliver. I'm not trying to argue here or piss anyone off, I'm getting to the point where I can actually afford to buy high end units and I have been disappointed... telling me that a stereo unit is "within spec" but is like 3 or more dB out per channel is a bit pants. No, I don't like plugins, I like analog gear BTW. again, I hope this doesn't come across as an "aggressive" post, it's not my intention, I just feel some of you big guys are taking the piss a little bit. | |
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19th February 2010
| #48 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Southern California
Posts: 643
| Another reason I like mixing with the 8200 is I know it's unlikely the mastering engineer is going to be using one. Mychal |
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19th February 2010
| #49 | |||
| Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chino, CA (cowtown)
Posts: 671
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Any further correspondence about your unit's repair-replacement should be taken private as we are off-topic here and probably boring the readership as well. | |||
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19th February 2010
| #50 | ||||
| Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chino, CA (cowtown)
Posts: 671
| Now as for Mr. Gomez's post: Quote:
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As is the cost difference between the 8200 pots version GML and the 9500 all discrete switching Mastering Version directly costed up from the cost difference between the two units. Understand, if we redesigned the Manley Mastering Massive Passive to also use multi-deck 24-position Grayhill switches, it would also cost around $10,000 MSRP instead of $6K. These switches are expensive, and so is the labor to build them here in America. Here in Chino not China. As a professional mastering engineer, if you require exacting accuracy and reliable repeatability in a dedicated mastering equalizer, then this is why you should buy the 9500 instead of the 8200. It is a simple answer. And yes it costs a lot more, speaking as the one who is manufacturing them. | ||||
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19th February 2010
| #51 |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 3,574
Verified Member | EveAnna - If I may be so bold as to actually make a product suggestion to you and George - one small niche, but certainly dedicated and I think up and coming, market is towards the "mid-line" mastering studio where something in the area of $3500 for a processor is doable - but in the over $7k mark is not. Towards this end - working with continuously variable pots for side matching and recalls is obviously not the best way of going about things for us but sometimes the only way to have a processor that sounds great still available at the price range that is affordable. One way that makes this setup still workable is to markedly reduce the gain range so that pots are way less "tweaky" - and a good number of us have done this type of mod to some of your competitor's products. Since in mastering boosts or cuts very rarely ever are needed above even 2dB the total range needed is generally much lower than featured on products aimed at the tracking and mixing crowd. SO: Perhaps you could offer a model with gain ranges for the pot being something like +/- 5dB instead of +/- 15dB for the 8200? Seems this wouldn't require much resources or expense on your end to make this possible, and you'd probably sell a whole bunch of them to the types of folks who inhabit this particular forum. Best regards, Steve Berson |
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19th February 2010
| #52 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Posts: 2,656
| Quote:
thumbsup | |
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19th February 2010
| #53 |
| Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chino, CA (cowtown)
Posts: 671
| I asked your dealer why you still haven't received your unit. We shipped it out weeks ago! Your brand new unit is sitting in customs waiting for the Greek customs workers to end their strike! When it rains, it pours... |
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20th February 2010
| #54 | |||||
| Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London U.K.
Posts: 323
Thread Starter Verified Member | Okay. Quote:
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or Do you spend more time calibrating the mastering versions? Quote:
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Sorry EveAnna, I may continue to buy and recommend your products but I think manufacturers and dealers (particularly) should be a little more honest about the products they sell. Yes, I know you may not like this post but something had to be said. I'm not saying GML, Manley and Crane Song make crap gear, I just think you people should be a little more careful with your marketing techniques or your QC departments before the units ship. All the best, Gomez | |||||
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20th February 2010
| #55 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Chicago (Schaumburg / Hoffman Est.) IL
Posts: 2,632
Verified Member | Quote:
It's not a question of time -- When you're using a potentiometer, you're at the mercy of the "swing" of the unit. You can "carefully match" units all day and it's still a crap shoot as to whether the unit will function similarly from channel to channel. With typical "mastering" versions, pots are replaced with (rotary) switches - And those switch setting calls up a precise value. If that value is the same on the right as on the left, there you go. I'm sure you're already pretty well aware of these points, but I'm sure some people might not be.
__________________ John Scrip - Massive Mastering, LLC - www.massivemastering.com Spoon-feed a newb some answer and he'll mix for a day - Get him to *think* about it and figure it out for himself and he'll mix for a lifetime --- JS | |
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20th February 2010
| #56 |
| Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chino, CA (cowtown)
Posts: 671
| Gomez, Please man, what I do all day, my primary job, is to read and listen to customer feedback and beat up my people at my factory to test more parameters, match more parts, and pay closer attention. More on top of more already. We have all kinds of custom-made jigs to match tubes, batch tubes, burn in tubes, measure and match pots at 11 points on their rotation(!) whist logging the data into a custom Filemaker database that will then calculate and spit out the best matches, measure and sort Vactrols, match transistors, match capacitors, match chokes, etc. And we do not charge enough for all this hidden work that you don't even imagine that we already do! We'll order 1000 stereo pots and use 200 of them. We commonly will get a 80% pre-QC fail rate on tubes. What does THAT cost? More than we charge for, I assure you. You are welcome to come visit our factory to see for yourself what goes into producing this kind of high end equipment. You have no idea... You just think we are all lying to you! Wow! Manley Massive Passive bandcards are built as pairs. Extensive matching goes into every unit, whether it be for the mastering version or normal version. There is no calibrating stereo match for the bandcards. Each part (pots, chokes, caps) must be measured, sorted, selected, then paired up to its other channel friend. Then those two bandcards get labeled and taped together so they end up in the same unit. We achieve the absolute best matching that can be practically achieved using 20% tolerance pots, 10% and 5% tolerance capacitors, 10% tolerance hand-wound multitapped chokes, and 1% resistors. In order for matching to improve, lower tolerance parts would have to be found (do they exist?) and your parts cost would go up HUGE. It does end up cheaper to go to 24 position Grayhill switches, but hell, it is still too rich for your blood. Can't win now can we? |
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20th February 2010
| #57 | |
| Gear addict  Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 419
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Respect  | |
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22nd February 2010
| #58 | |
| Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London U.K.
Posts: 323
Thread Starter Verified Member | Dear EveAnna Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the technical complications in detail, the grass is always greener on the other side. I admire your dedication for keeping really high standards and all that jazz, however, it would be cool if you chilled out a bit. I would elaborate further in this "discussion" but my use of English isn't as savvy as yours and my current schedule is pretty cluttered... Over and out. Quote:
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23rd February 2010
| #59 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: 3rd Stone From The Sun
Posts: 2,862
Verified Member | Quote:
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