Vinyl that is AAA certified

[MC Blind]

Anyone?

[Axon]

Those codes don't exist for vinyl; they were strictly a CD marketing tool.

You need some independent confirmation of the recording/mastering process. Some bands (perhaps most notably Shellac) are very well known to produce/master their stuff all-analog. Some records advertise their all-analog mastering process. Obviously, the audiophile labels tend to be all-analog and will advertise accordingly.

[soundroid]

giving the vinyl cutting engineer an analogue 1/4 inch master tape would be
the only way to ensure a total analogue path. from my experience, this was pretty much the default standard before time coded DAT tape.

[MC Blind]

Thanks for chiming in guys. I'm surprised that there isn't some label or categorization standard that would guarantee a 100% analog path to vinyl. I mean if some places are using 16 bit 44.1 KHz masters to press their vinyl from, (which I've heard many do) I find that slightly misleading and downright unethical. Why would someone buy the vinyl in the first place which is more expensive than CDs if the source for the vinyl was essentially CD quality. It's like the worst of both worlds...

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by soundroid

giving the vinyl cutting engineer an analogue 1/4 inch master tape would be
the only way to ensure a total analogue path.

Even this wouldn't insure it by any means - because a lot of places (read: the vast majority) even if they receive analog tape send the direct feed to the pitch/depth computer and then use a digital delay to send the program signal to the cutter head. The other less commonly used way is to use a tape deck equipped with both preview and program heads - and with extra capstans that allowed you to wind the tape long enough to effect the appropriate amount of delay for each of the various tape and cutting speeds - such as my Sony/MCI JH110M -

from my experience, this was pretty much the default standard before time coded DAT tape.

Ironically vinyl mastering studios were some of the very first adopters of digital technology - using 14-bit digital delay lines (later updated to 16-bit) by the likes of Studer and Ampex issued in the mid 70's.

In answer to the original question - Rachel's - Rachels - Home - made a point of having the vinyl release for the "Sea & Bells" mastered completely analog at Abbey Road. I think a couple of other of their releases were done all analog as well.

A great series of videos on the all analog reissue of Mission of Burma's late 70's - early 80's releases done by George Marino and Ray Janos at Sterling Sound is at YouTube - Mission of Burma- Burma Reissue Mastering Sessions Part 1

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[MC Blind]

I'm listening to the clips from Rachel's album The Sea and the Bells and it sounds very atmospheric and interesting. Thanks for the link Steve. I would love to hear this on vinyl. Also, thanks for talking about the process of delay used to cut vinyl. That's an aspect I had never heard of and also find interesting. Something honestly that I would really love would be for high quality DSD files direct from the master tapes be made available. Which I suppose has happened with some of the SACD discs but I would like to see some 5.6 MHz files become available with the latest technology.

[First Aid]

You have a preview head that tells the lathe (pitch&depth computer) whats coming up next in terms of hard to cut HF/LF so it can set the land (space between the grooves) accordingly before being sent to the cutterhead to actually cut the groove, a lookahead if you like.

[analogtodd]

Oddly enough, this came up a year ago on here....
Vinyl Pressing Plant

[Bob Olhsson]

If your sides aren't too long, you don't need the preview.

[MC Blind]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

If your sides aren't too long, you don't need the preview.

Does that mean if your album length isn't that long that you don't have to worry about the spacing of the grooves?

Again, I'm coming from the consumer perspective here guys. I want some sort of system in place that guarantees me that the vinyl I might buy is 100% analog with absolutely no digital conversion at ANY step in the process.

[First Aid]

you can be fairly sure that if someone makes the effort to keep a recording fully analogue that they will probably make an equal effort to tell you about it!

[Pete Lyman]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

If your sides aren't too long, you don't need the preview.

yep...There are quite a few guys that prefer to cut without preview. I'm not one of them, but my first five years of cutting were on a AM32b without the use of the pitch system. Shouldn't be too hard to cut a standard level rock lp up to 18 min. I've done longer without pitch.

[Joe_caithness]

I have a feeling Mission of Burma's "come back albums" were AAA, they sound great either way

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Pete Lyman

yep...There are quite a few guys that prefer to cut without preview...

I'm one of them. Less adjacent groove echo and hotter cuts because QC is much easier. Classical music benefits a great deal but not pop music.

[Axon]

I also recall that you can use a second tape head to implement the readahead, when cutting from tape.

[MC Blind]

A lot of other djs and music lovers I've met all over the world are interested in a system to ensure a 100% analog path for old or new all analog productions. I wonder if any of you that have industry connections could get the word out that a lot of people are interested in some sort of system to ensure a 100% analog path to vinyl?

Thanks for your help in spreading the word!

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I'm one of them. Less adjacent groove echo and hotter cuts because QC is much easier. Classical music benefits a great deal but not pop music.

How do we tell a 100% analog path on the LP?


DC

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by dcollins

How do we tell a 100% analog path on the LP?

I had a client's graphics person call Friday asking me for the SPARS code of the master I had just done! All I could tell him was that the last two letters were D and pretty obviously so was the first letter for most of the tracks. Why they called me and not her two producers I'll never know.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by dcollins

How do we tell a 100% analog path on the LP?

While with a good eye you could tell if the side was cut with fixed pitch looking at the grooves with a microscope - obviously you can send to the cutter head via a DAC with fixed pitch as well. So the only way to know is via a note on the packaging or liner notes. Again - usually folks who cut all analog for new releases want you to know about it and will have some indication on the packaging.

Regarding cutting classical sides with fixed pitch - it's rare that sides are so short for this that you can't get better level - and thus better signal to noise ratio for a format that this is critical for - using a good pitch/depth computer. If pre-echo is an issue then I'd say DMM offers an excellent solution for this.

Got to also say regarding cutting all analog - even the places that can do this usually have fairly limited processing for this unless they create what was called a "sub-master" (which would entail a generation loss) - so unless you're really happy with the way the mixes sound on tape and they don't have any problematic issues (such as sibilance) then sometimes it's indeed harder to get a good sounding side than just doing a round of ADC>DAC in order to get more effective processing done. So being an analog purist might not actually give you better sounding results in many cases.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

...Got to also say regarding cutting all analog - even the places that can do this usually have fairly limited processing for this unless they create what was called a "sub-master" ...

I can't imagine any of us who have watched Bob Ludwig run a mastering console at Sterling or Masterdisk saying this!

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I can't imagine any of us who have watched Bob Ludwig run a mastering console at Sterling or Masterdisk saying this!

However Bob L. hasn't had a lathe at Gateway in years, and hasn't cut any sides in years either. Both Sterling and Masterdisk are indeed places with good analog transfer consoles fully equipped with a/b channel switching and redundant processors for each channel - however again, many current vinyl mastering studios in fact do not. Generally the places where tape decks with preview/program paths and good a/b transfer consoles exist the mastering costs are higher than at others - so sometimes this is out of the budget of the label or the artist to have the side done with as much care as an all analog transfer sometimes requires.

For a well balanced tape where the entire side is nicely consistent and doesn't have any issues that prevent it from being transferred with minimal processing then I'd say an all analog transfer could indeed be the best way of going about things. If further and heavier processing is indeed needed on a per track basis in order to bring out the best for that side - then I'd say being afraid of a single round of ADC -> DAC is a silly bugaboo, considering the minimal losses when using high quality converters. A transfer into the DAW also lets people do things like selective de-essing - which often can get better results than having to have a de-esser set across the entire track. So to me - which way is necessarily "better" has everything to do with the source track and desired and results and not as much to do with an absolutist ideas of what should sound "best." Obviously OMMV!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[MC Blind]

I guess in my experience that you do lose some depth and separation of elements when you convert well recorded analog material through an A to D converter, even if it's a high end one. Once the music is converted the analog qualities I described don't magically reappear just because you are pressing a vinyl. At that point you might as well skip the record and just buy the cd, thus my whole reasoning for asking for some sort of standard for AAA certification for vinyl.

For someone with money that wants to start a profitable agreement with some labels with good old material you should consider it. There is a really big market for this once people are educated about it. Vinyl sales are up and the trend is continuing.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by MC Blind

I guess in my experience that you do lose some depth and separation of elements when you convert well recorded analog material through an A to D converter, even if it's a high end one.

I agree - the change might be subtle with a round of ADC to DAC but it is indeed there even with the best converters available.

Once the music is converted the analog qualities I described don't magically reappear just because you are pressing a vinyl.

Again, I agree with this point to a good extent - however I have certainly heard digital pre-masters sound subjectively "better" after being transferred to vinyl master - usually simply because the ultra-high frequencies were rounded off and the ultra-lows refocused on the vinyl in a way I found pleasurable to listen to - but also sometimes because of the "unknown juju" that playback from vinyl can impart.

At that point you might as well skip the record and just buy the cd,

But for some the aesthetics of a vinyl record is the attraction in itself regardless of whether it came from a digital source or not.

thus my whole reasoning for asking for some sort of standard for AAA certification for vinyl.

I agree with you that it certainly would be nice to have for collectors. Again - it is rare enough that the recent releases I have seen with this made it known in the liner notes. Otherwise - look for pressings made before around 1978.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Yann Dub]

we do full analog mastering or AAA with a studer C37 , Telefunken M15 with preview deck and neumann cutting lathe
Reverse-Primecut - Mastering studio, Barcelona, Spain
it is the best way to do good sounding records.

[RichArien]

Originally Posted by First Aid

you can be fairly sure that if someone makes the effort to keep a recording fully analogue that they will probably make an equal effort to tell you about it!

+1 for this.. I'm pretty sure that even if ultimately released on CD an All Analog Record path will be something sufficiently big to be mentioned in the press release..
To be honest in most commercial albums this will not be the case, still I guess you can get something in the vinyl that the CD might not get just because of the higher bitrate master recording used for cutting it..
Again if something is released all analog from start to finish you will certainly know as this is really rare practice.

[Bob Olhsson]

I actually think one is probably best off cutting vinyl from digital unless the tracking and mixing engineers are very experienced with dodging the limitations of vinyl. Only a tiny percentage of the projects I get today would translate to first class vinyl if only analog processing were available. I doubt that most people realize the degree to which digital is more forgiving at every single step.

[Yann Dub]

Yes ; I agree with Bob , working full analog means than you have perfect mixes ... otherwise , better use digital tools ...

[Thor]

I would think that finding whatever process serves, and preserves the music would be the one to go with, be it analogue or digital, but then I don't cut vinyl.

I guess for some people format 'purity' is important, I'm more concerned with the final results (i.e. I don't buy analogue or digital being "better" than the other, just different).

That said, we did a project recently that was tracked and mixed to tape, we did some sweetening & editing (again to tape, all analogue signal path) and sent the edited master tapes off to be cut (all analogue). The band was happy, the vinyl sounded great. But then so do quite a few that have been through a digital delay... :-)

Thor

[JR465]

Originally Posted by MC Blind

I remember reading awhile ago that one of the dark secrets of the vinyl industry is that many records are pressed from digital sources. For someone that wants a pure analog format for an album such as Third Eye Blinds eponymous album or Dark Side of the Moon who where originally tracked to tape how do you ensure that a vinyl that you buy is totally from analog sources? I really miss when they used to have those three square boxes that would show the tracking, mixing and mastering stages on cds, (Three boxes showing AAA or AAD) etc.

Hi MC Blind- Yes a SPARS code for vinyl would be great, I have often wished for that myself. Im afraid I cant help you on a certification, but if you are into reissue LPs, I look up titles Im interested in on the Acoustic Sounds (Vinyl Records, SACDs, DVD Audio, Audiophile Equipment | Acoustic Sounds) website. I learned that Doug Sax cut The Doors catalog all analog. Also saw that Sterling just did Paul Simon Graceland from the analog masters according to this site.

Hope this helps