What are you using for a phono preamp for restoration work?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I am looking for a new phono preamp for doing restoration work. We currently are using a Stanton 310 which works good but is starting to have some problems.

Here are a couple of the ones I am looking at.

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merc...tegory_Code=PP

Phono Preamp - Phono Turntable Pre amp - Phono Stage - Korora RIAA Phono Stage MM or MC

Hagerman Technology LLC: Bugle Opamp Moving Magnet Budget Phonostage DIY Kit

The one I am really considering is this one

PS Audio - GCPH Phono Preamplifier

If I want to build one this one looks interesting The Analog Addicts Phono Preamp

or this one The Signal Transfer Company: RIAA balanced output


I also found this page which lists a lot of phono preamps: RIAA/Phono preamplifiers & moving coil transformers - audiotools.com.

Any thoughts, experiences or ideas would be most welcome.

[Dale]

what kind of restoration? any 78's?
try here Phono Stage Preamps Headphone Amplifiers Line Amps Interconnect Cables & Audio Kits by Graham Slee

the metric halo uln 2 works as one...

[reynaud]

I mainly use the ELBERG MD12 mk2 and will most likely upgrade to the mk3 model when it is available. The mk3 adds a few nice-to-haves. The Elberg is a solid performer.

I have also used the Millenia LOC which is very nice but far too pricey at around $10k so I hire-in for larger jobs.

cheers,
Reynaud

[Karl Jackson]

Originally Posted by reynaud

I mainly use the ELBERG MD12 mk2 and will most likely upgrade to the mk3 model when it is available. The mk3 adds a few nice-to-haves. The Elberg is a solid performer.

I have also used the Millenia LOC which is very nice but far too pricey at around $10k so I hire-in for larger jobs.

cheers,
Reynaud

I use the Elberg MD12 mk2, which has great options. It's only quirk is a very low output level. I have to crank the output gain to get reasonable level into a Mytek 8X96 ADC.

kj

[mercurydime]

i have been using a Maple Tree Audio Design Phono 4 SE for several years now. my particular unit is no longer available as it has been upgraded. all point-to-point hand-wired with high quality components. great unit with marvelous soundstage and stereo presentation. a pic of the newer model is below.

more information available at: Welcome to Mapletree Audio Design

[rondr]

Hello Thomas,
I hope the holiday season is going well for you. For restoration work and versatility the Millennia Media unit is probably one of the most professional units available but comes at a cost. Manley, Balanced Audio Technology as well as Boulder have similar products but would be considered to be in the high cost range too. For the money, the PS Audio unit looks very nice, gives you some degree versatility and more than likely will give you professional results without compromise.

Cheers,
rondr

[Lagerfeldt]

This blew me away, I use it for sampling and playback. I'd give it mention for those who need a good and reasonably priced phono preamp though it's probably not suitable for your restoration needs.

Pro-Ject Phono Box II

Originally Posted by reynaud

I mainly use the ELBERG MD12 mk2 and will most likely upgrade to the mk3 model when it is available. The mk3 adds a few nice-to-haves. The Elberg is a solid performer.

Nice. Elberg is Danish by the way.

[Cellotron]

I'm using a Simaudio Moon LP 5.3 - Simaudio MOON LP5.3 Phono Preamplifier

Nice thing if you are using this for your studio is that it has both balanced and unbalanced outputs (which output simulatneously - so I use the unbalanced outs to send to a set of meters), and has internal jumpers that allow you to adjust capacitance, gain, and input impedance so it works well with a wide variety of MM or MC cartridges.

This box is extremely clean, very solidly constructed, and goes for a relativlely reasonable $1400 street. It's not designed to be a "warm / colored" pre but instead as a tranparent, unhyped, straight wire type of pre, and as such imo it's an excellent choice for the mastering studio.

Of course if you're looking to the archival transfers of 78's and pre-RIAA eq curves then you should look towards a different pre that allows you to switch to a variety of these. To date all the transfer or audition requests I get are for RIAA encoded 33-1/3 and 45 records though - and I don't have any 78's in my own collection.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[finetuner]

I second Pro-Ject's Phono Box II.

I'm using the SE version which has selectable input impedances.
Great price/quality ratio indeed.

[Waltz Mastering]

I'm using an old Hafler pre, from a kit.

[shmasterer]

I do not recommend using tube pre's for restoration work.
Pops and clicks on records are better denoised by software if the transfer is made with solid state electronics. I've actually tested this.

sh

[da goose]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

I'm using a Simaudio Moon LP 5.3 - Simaudio MOON LP5.3 Phono Preamplifier

Nice thing if you are using this for your studio is that it has both balanced and unbalanced outputs (which output simulatneously - so I use the unbalanced outs to send to a set of meters), and has internal jumpers that allow you to adjust capacitance, gain, and input impedance so it works well with a wide variety of MM or MC cartridges.

This box is extremely clean, very solidly constructed, and goes for a relativlely reasonable $1400 street. It's not designed to be a "warm / colored" pre but instead as a tranparent, unhyped, straight wire type of pre, and as such imo it's an excellent choice for the mastering studio.

Of course if you're looking to the archival transfers of 78's and pre-RIAA eq curves then you should look towards a different pre that allows you to switch to a variety of these. To date all the transfer or audition requests I get are for RIAA encoded 33-1/3 and 45 records though - and I don't have any 78's in my own collection.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

OMG... did you seriously paid 1400 for a couple of smd opamps, smd resistors and some wima caps? i think that in parts it is worth something like 40 euro's including a good toroidal transformer. OK, it looks good and may sound great but it's totally NOT worth that amount of money!

I have a homemade riaa pre-amp which is a clone of quite a famous and simple phono pre-amp, RJM Audio - DIY Projects (i have build the vsps)
It sounds really good and clean and it has just a few components on veroboard with OPA opamps and wima caps.
The most important factor for the amp is the riaa eq stage, the opamp pre-amp stage is quite simple and if you use burr browns or something like 5532/5534 opamps you will be fine.
PLEASE don't spend to much money on a phono pre-amp because it's really really simple, don't be a audiofool...

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by da goose

OMG... did you seriously paid 1400 for a couple of smd opamps, smd resistors and some wima caps? i think that in parts it is worth something like 40 euro's including a good toroidal transformer. OK, it looks good and may sound great but it's totally NOT worth that amount of money!

Well, with enclosure 100.


DC

[da goose]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Well, with enclosure 100.


DC

ok... true..

But anyway, i think the best thing to do is go for something like a pre-amp like i described, i really don't think you will hear the difference much and aren't you going to master it after the capture anyway?

Just use a decent, as clean as possible (i prefer OPA's) opamp based preamp with a well implemented riaa eq and your done.
Don't believe the hype that the audiofools are trying to sell you... they are all the same, trust me. You won't hear the difference between a really expensive audiograde ultrasonic capacitor and a wima cap or a goldplated 0.0001% lefthand wounded or a decent 1% metalfilm resistor.

But i really do think you will hear a really big difference if you use the interconnects form this topic: New audiophile interconnects
They really do make the difference!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I ordered the PS Audio preamp yesterday. There is no dealer in this area which is a problem. It should be here today or the beginning of next week. I talked to the PS Audio sales people and so far it looks like the best bang for the buck. Only listening will tell me whether to keep it or return it. I like PS Audio's philosophy and their way of doing business.

I have built many RIAA preamps in my life and everyone sounded slightly different. I have built them using tubes, all discrete transistors, run of the mill op amps and very expensive op amps. The phono preamp units we now have are from Stanton and they sound really really good. If the PS Audio is NOT a major improvement it will go back to the company we purchased it from.

There are no Hi-Fidelity/Stereo stores in this area any more so I had to order this unit online without hearing it. The best stereo store, Hoffman's, closed up about three years ago. Most of the places that are still here are into selling home theater setups. I use to be able to go to Hoffman's and audition gear and in some cases take it to my studio and audition it there. When they closed down it was a real blow to the high end audio community. The two nearest stores that still sell high end audtionable equipment are in Columbus and Detroit.

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

Just for the record the second and third choices were the Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE phono preamp and this one KORORA RIAA Phone Stage. I also looked at this one if I wanted to build my own The Signal Transfer Company: RIAA balanced output

Again thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by vin_sek

if you built amps before why can built another?

I could but at present it is not a good use of my time. We have so many restoration projects coming in I just want something that works.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by da goose

OMG... did you seriously paid 1400 for a couple of smd opamps, smd resistors and some wima caps? i think that in parts it is worth something like 40 euro's including a good toroidal transformer. OK, it looks good and may sound great but it's totally NOT worth that amount of money!

Ouch!
Well - I paid $1200 cause I got a demo box - so at least I only got ripped off for about $1050 if you add in the price for the fancy looking chassis. I'd say that the price for off the shelf gear is nearly always way more than the value of the parts in it (see the pic posted here recently of the insides of the Dangerous S&M for example). But for me to diy would be a lot more time than for someone more experienced with it - and certainly wouldn't look as pretty or function as well from day one as my LP5.3 - and the days spent on putting together a box and testing various different components for best results would start to add up to more than the cash I would make spending that time just working instead - so in some ways the price differential is a wash. You make a very valid point that the circuits necessary for a phono pre are simple enough to save cash and diy.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[James Smith]

I think you should try this one:

BEHRINGER: PP400

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by vin_sek

if builting amps is easy then why not buit??? what hapend to pride?? I built this look ! my studio is difrent

This looks like a good tube design and I may try it sometime.

Phono Preamp

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

This looks like a good tube design and I may try it sometime.

Phono Preamp

The input is not loaded correctly, the output impedance is 100X too high and the RIAA curve looks funky. Outside of that it's perfect.


DC

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by dcollins

The input is not loaded correctly, the output impedance is 100X too high and the RIAA curve looks funky. Outside of that it's perfect.


DC

The input is loaded with a 47K resistor which is correct for a MM cartridge. There probably should be a small capacitor bridged across the 47K resistor. Not sure what you are seeing????

It is a cathode follower output not a plate output so I am confused by your remark. I assume it is somewhere in the 5 K ohms output range. As to the RIAA I do not have access to any "spice" programs so I would probably have to build the unit and check out the curve with an oscillator and voltmeter.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

The input is loaded with a 47K resistor which is correct for a MM cartridge. There probably should be a small capacitor bridged across the 47K resistor. Not sure what you are seeing????

Yes, you need a capacitor across the 47k. Although a subjective point, I've never had any luck with paralleling the two halves of the triode for noise -- quieter but sounds worse.

It is a cathode follower output not a plate output so I am confused by your remark. I assume it is somewhere in the 5 K ohms output range.

The cathode resistor is 22k with a series cap of 2uF, so you are in trouble already wrt LF rolloff and cable drive. A competently designed White follower output would be >>1k.

As to the RIAA I do not have access to any "spice" programs so I would probably have to build the unit and check out the curve with an oscillator and voltmeter.

This free version is excellent:
AnaSoft - Analoge Simulation - SuperSpice


DC

[Hane]

Using a Graham Slee Gram Amp 2SE for vinyl to digital transfers.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Yes, you need a capacitor across the 47k. Although a subjective point, I've never had any luck with paralleling the two halves of the triode for noise -- quieter but sounds worse.



The cathode resistor is 22k with a series cap of 2uF, so you are in trouble already wrt LF rolloff and cable drive. A competently designed White follower output would be >>1k.



This free version is excellent:
AnaSoft - Analoge Simulation - SuperSpice


DC

I never heard or saw a White follower but looked it up on line and you are sooooooo correct.

Thanks so much for the software link. I will try it.

[mastertone]

Originally Posted by da goose

I have a homemade riaa pre-amp which is a clone of quite a famous and simple phono pre-amp, RJM Audio - DIY Projects (i have build the vsps)

Thanks for sharing dagoose, im gonna look into that.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by mastertone

Thanks for sharing dagoose, im gonna look into that.

I really don't like preamps that have the RIAA equalization as part of the feedback around the op amp, but that is just a personal preference.

[mastertone]

Okay, why?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by mastertone

Okay, why?

This explains it better than I ever could http://www.angelfire.com/az3/dimitri/images/riaa.pdf

Basically two gain stages separated by a passive RIAA equalization network simply sounds better than an RIAA equalization network in the feedback loop of the op amp. Even though they may both measure the same to my ears the two gain stages with the RIAA passive eq stage just sounds better to the ear.

YMMV

[First Aid]

Very interested in the Vinylium pre...

phono preamp - Vinylium

anyone using it?

[soundroid]

Originally Posted by reynaud

I mainly use the ELBERG MD12 mk2 and will most likely upgrade to the mk3 model when it is available. The mk3 adds a few nice-to-haves. The Elberg is a solid performer.

cheers,
Reynaud

I've got a mkII Elberg. you can't go wrong with this unit. heaps of options and eq curves, definitely makes this a serious restoration tool and a joy to use. not too pricey either in comparison with the Millenia. someone mentioned something about a low output stage however I've not encountered this issue.