12" vinyl, 14 minutes per side, 45 or 33 RPM?

[friction909]

This is electronic pop, 14 minutes per side, not super bass heavy, the remixes on the second disc have more bass, but I'm not concerned about DJ club play, it's for the at-home market. I'm really looking for the best overall sound quality, not loudness. I've never been very happy with the second half of a 33RPM side, distortion can be pretty bad, I've had fewer issues with the second half of a well-mastered 45RPM 12" side.

Which speed would you choose for mastering?

Let's say that you mastered both at the same level, where the 33RPM version would stay more away from the label (and distortion) and the 45RPM version would be much closer to the label.

Thanks!

[Adam Dempsey]

At 14 mins you could go with with either speed fine but you'll get a louder cut by as much as 2dB with 33rpm vs 45rpm.
For much above 14 mins and 45rpm we'd generally recommend going with 33rpm, which can take >18mins before significantly getting into the low level* territory.
*(read: poorer s/n ratio)

[GeorgeZ]

Originally Posted by friction909

This is electronic pop, 14 minutes per side, not super bass heavy, the remixes on the second disc have more bass, but I'm not concerned about DJ club play, it's for the at-home market. I'm really looking for the best overall sound quality, not loudness. I've never been very happy with the second half of a 33RPM side, distortion can be pretty bad, I've had fewer issues with the second half of a well-mastered 45RPM 12" side.

Which speed would you choose for mastering?

Let's say that you mastered both at the same level, where the 33RPM version would stay more away from the label (and distortion) and the 45RPM version would be much closer to the label.

I would choose 45 rpm to be sure the result will be OK if you prefer sound quality over loudness. The max. possible cutting level will be limited not only by the length and level of the record (14 min. is right on the edge) but also by the dynamic profile. With DMM lathe and 40um basic width of the groove it is possible to cut longer records so the level can be still acceptable even for 14 to 15 minutes.

A similar thread with my comparison of both cutting simulations is here:
PSW Recording Forums: Brad Blackwood => 33/45 rpm sonics question

[Fat larry]

Ask the engineer who is going to cut it because all systems are different, And just to be sure i would cut a dub at both speeds and have a listen.

[dietrich10]

I cut a very similar 12 minute a side electronica @45 rpm yesterday and I cut at same volume I would of @ 33. Someone should be able to cut your job @ 45 without too much level loss even if not DMM.

[wado1942]

Ask yourself if you want 1/3rd higher linear velocity (cleaner highs) at the cost of 1/3rd of the track width (thinner bottom). Either way is a sacrifice. I'd personally go with 33 RPM because #1, it's standard for a disk that size and #2, it'd be easier to master for it.

[12ax7]

The REAL beauty of 45 is toward the end of the side!

At the end of the side, the extra velocity starts to matter more!

If the audio material in question builds to greater peak levels and more complexity of waveform than that which exists at the beginning of the track, 45's the way to go.

In the very rare case that the reverse is true, 33 would be the choice.

Hmmmm...

...UNLESS you could talk the mastering engineer to cutting it as a "start inside" record (meaning that the buyer of the record would start playing the record by placing the stylus on the inner groove. and the stylus would progressively move toward the outside as it played).

...But...

If what you're putting on the record is your average "balls to the wall" mix (with all the dynamic range of a cow sh*ting on a flat rock), well then what possible difference could any of this possibly make?

[Cellotron]

Surest way to decide is just have a reference acetate cut of the same side - one at 33-1/3 and one at 45rpm - and then have a listen to see which you like best.

Anyway - most likely for level I'd go with 33-1/3, but for sound quality as a priority with 45rpm.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Fat larry]

.

...UNLESS you could talk the mastering engineer to cutting it as a "start inside" record (meaning that the buyer of the record would start playing the record by placing the stylus on the inner groove. and the stylus would progressively move toward the outside as it played).

I believe you can only do that on a skully

[12ax7]

Originally Posted by Fat larry

.


I believe you can only do that on a skully

Like I said, ONLY if you can talk the engineer into it.

(Obviously, if the equipment will not allow it, that can't happen).

[friction909]

Thanks for the feedback. The pre-master will have full uncompressed dynamic range. I've heard compressed CD audio transferred to vinyl, at 1/2 speed @ 33RPM, it sounded like crap, not sure why they even bothered?

[12ax7]

Originally Posted by friction909

I've heard compressed CD audio transferred to vinyl, at 1/2 speed @ 33RPM, it sounded like crap, not sure why they even bothered?

Fer sure!

Woulda been better the other way 'round!

In the world of vinyl, pre-mastering is for people who can't mix (or can't master)!