Bob Katz rocks! - An A/B Mastering comparison

[jordanstoner]

So, here's not only a shameless plug for the band I've just finished producing and recording - View From Space - but also a comparative A/B example of Bob Katz's mastering vs. the original unmastered mix of the first song off their new self-titled album.

I've included two 30-second FLAC clips of the beginning of the song (please right-click or control-click to download):

Original Mix
Mastered

I've also included a self-A/B'ing MP3 (sorry, the only file size I could upload ) of the entire song:

A/B Comparison MP3

This A/B version has both the original mix and mastered versions divided into contiguous segments throughout play. Each segment is preceded by a sine pulse - 1k for original mix, 2k for mastered. The mastered version has been level-matched (down) to the level of the original for demonstration purposes.

(EDIT) NOTE: The band wanted a record with preserved dynamics. This is not an extremely loud album - it sits around -14 to -9 dB RMS. This was intentional.

These clips are used by express consent of the band and with Bob's blessing.

[Washington]

very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[Darius van H]

Is it loud enough?

Sorry, let me re-phrase that: "What would Ted have done?"

[Rocke]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Is it loud enough?

My thought exactly

[jordanstoner]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Is it loud enough?

Yes, as a matter of fact, it is.

Sorry, let me re-phrase that: "What would Ted have done?"

Don't know, don't care. It's just exactly as we wanted it.

After all the flummox over "loudness this/loudness that - the client is always right," I'm shocked that this would actually be asked. It is how we wanted it to be - dynamic and punchy.

[Darius van H]

The bit about Ted was just a joke (referring to the obsession with Ted 'round these parts lately)

The question about loudness is justified, and it's better that it's asked now before it's too late.

Of course the client should always get what they want!

[jordanstoner]

It's a circular argument. ME's are upset with clients because they ask for loud records, attributing it to insecurity. Yet here you are insinuating it won't compete because it's not loud enough... We consciously made an effort to not be part of the loudness wars. Next time I have a band that wants the opposite approach, I'll hire you.

[Darius van H]

100% correct!

Originally Posted by jordanstoner

Next time I have a band that wants the opposite approach, I'll hire you.

Or better still, Ted!

[jordanstoner]

Great, now my thread is derailed. I wanted this to focus more on the before/after...

Sometimes, I hate Gearslutz.

[Darius van H]

Sorry man, didn't mean to derail. But the thing is, there are some pro ME's on here, so the question was bound to be asked.

But now that it's clear that you specifically asked for no limiting or clipping, people can better judge the mastering IMO.

[funka]

Sounds cool.
Stereo seems larger, more pleasing. Overall more balanced and natural.


For the comparison, I expect the mastered version has been lowered in level no?

[jordanstoner]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Sorry man, didn't mean to derail. But the thing is, there are some pro ME's on here, so the question was bound to be asked.

But now that it's clear that you specifically asked for no limiting or clipping, people can better judge the mastering IMO.

Well, there's always vloud...

Sounds cool.
Stereo seems larger, more pleasing. Overall more balanced and natural.


For the comparison, I expect the mastered version has been lowered in level no?

I agree - more spacious. And the rest of the album is glued together quite nicely as well.
The level of the master was turned down for the comparison, to the original level that the mix was bounced at.

[Edward_Vinatea]

Jordan, the RMS total power on that master is around -13.2dB, is this then final? Also, are you very happy with the punch and power of the kick drum or do you wish it could have been taken up a notch?

{Edit}: Very nice tune btw

Regards,

[kjg]

i think the mastering is done very tastefully, with much respect for the sound of the mix. the master is a bit more transparent, wider, bigger. some mud has been removed. nice.

the loudness is on par with one of the most dynamic big name rock releases (mastered by Bob Ludwig). more rockers should have the balls to release music at this level.
who cares about the RMS number. the sound suites this style of music and is very pleasant and non-fatiguing.

congratulations on a job well done. thank you for sharing!

klaas-jan

[jordanstoner]

I make my own decisions based on what the client requires and my own judgement
as I am sure many others do.

Agreed.

Let's all just assume that I'm 110% satisfied with the results. That's not what this thread is supposed to be about. The album is finished, and Bob already got the work... so let's move the conversation back to its original intent: the results of the mastering.

Thanks for the kind words from everyone else!

I agree that Bob really dusted off the edges and opened up the sound. We're tickled pink with the results. Would actually love to pick his brain on some of his processing...

[mobius.media]

What I find baffling is all the ME's complain on this site 24/7 about how no one wants reasonable volumes these days. Then someone does want a master quieter and they harangue him about being happy with -13 on the verses.

Anyway, man, glad you're happy, and I dig the vibe.

[jordanstoner]

I just updated my own website, so you can listen to MP3's of the whole album if you're digging the music.

Onetriberecords.com

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by SafeandSound

Personally as a "Pro ME",

Why the " "?

Originally Posted by SafeandSound

Who cannot do loud, any idiot can

There's an idiot statement right there.

To make great sounding, extremely loud masters that still seem punchy while operating at the limits of distortion is an art and ain't easy. That's why the big boys get paid the big bucks. That's not to say that all squashed records sound good or even acceptable.

Originally Posted by SafeandSound

Times must be hard for some to invoke such a weak style of criticism.

Anyway, i don't know why everyone is getting their knickers so much in a twist. If the OP was aware that the master had an unusually low volume by todays standards, why didn't he mention it from the get-go to avoid all this kafuffle?

Right, i'm out of this one, i'm off to squash some more music!

[Edward_Vinatea]

Not trying to help Darius VH as he does a good job stating the obvious and to me, what he says is understandable but sometimes and certainly not in this case, the client doesn't know how he will feel after the mastering job is completed and later he starts getting the "hey, your mix is not as loud as so and so, etc".

If the client doesn't have confidence in his music, or if the music is not very good to begin with, he might actually start looking at the ME as the reason for the lack of positive feedback with his record. Sometimes they come back saying, "you didn't make it loud enough".

Again, it doesn't happen all the time but it does happen, usually when the client fails to understand the significance or 'insignificance' of the loudness and its impact to the sound of the whole CD.

I personally feel that the days of rock, metal, punk, etc, records without clipping are about 10 years away {hopefully less} so, the overall level of Jordan's clip is a glimpse to the future and/or what it should be.

Again please don't take this out of context. I am not in favor of hyper-compression, but I get a lot of emails from aspiring artists. As far as the more professional ones go, their attitude seems to reflect what they hear at ITunes. They even say to me literally "make it loud so it competes at ITunes" Go figure.

Regards,

[Peakly]

Originally Posted by jordanstoner

Let's all just assume that I'm 110% satisfied with the results. That's not what this thread is supposed to be about. The album is finished, and Bob already got the work... so let's move the conversation back to its original intent: the results of the mastering.

Huh? All of the posts here have been about the results of the mastering. You're upset because some of the pro MEs on this forum are questioning those results. Do you only want a discussion where everyone pats you and Bob on the back? How boring and useless would that be?

Great, now my thread is derailed. I wanted this to focus more on the before/after...

Doesn't look derailed at all to me. Just some honest comments regarding the before/after that you don't agree with.

Mychal

[24-96 Mastering]

If the producer / engineer posts the master that in all likelihood all involved have signed off on, then I think it's safe to assume it's "loud enough". That's not to say there's anything wrong with asking, but the first answer kinda settled the question imo.

I got to cut a metal album with pretty much no limiting / clipping the other day and the band are loving it to bits. There's nothing wrong with lower level if the client values the dynamic range.

[jordanstoner]

I hear and understand the reasons for bringing it up... I think it was a little presumptuous on Darius's part to assume we weren't aware of the level of the album... we aren't out to "compete" with everyone else in loudness - we upheld the integrity of the music satisfactorily, and Bob was a big part of that. Again, that's why we sought out his expertise.

We wanted this to be an album that was both classic and modern... and I think it turned out that way. "Stories From The Radio" reminds me of lying back with my headphones and drifting off to Dark Side Of The Moon... something that I haven't experienced with many artists recently.

[jordanstoner]

You're upset because some of the pro MEs on this forum are questioning those results. Do you only want a discussion where everyone pats you and Bob on the back? How boring and useless would that be?

No, that's not the point - and I'm not upset in the least. But I had hoped more of the pro ME's you speak of would offer criticisms on things other than the loudness aspect. That's very one-dimensional. At least Ed mentioned the impact of the kick - that's the stuff I'm talking about. I'd be happy as shit if someone would have said they disagreed with the space that was added, or the EQ'ing, etc. But everyone got stuck on loudness, which was the band's call in the first place, and would've been a guideline for any engineer hired to work on the music.

[Darius van H]

I guess it's not fair if i don't comment on the mastering.

I think it's technically a very good mastering - fixed some problems in the mix in a very transparent way - not sure if i could have done that so well myself.

However, i think the mastering lacks balls and vibe - not my cup of tea (i'm not talking about volume).

[jordanstoner]

However, i think the mastering lacks balls and vibe - not my cup of tea (i'm not talking about volume).

And that's a perfectly acceptable criticism / point of view.

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by jordanstoner

And that's a perfectly acceptable criticism / point of view.

I also made an unclear comment. Jordan, I feel the bass and particularly the bass drum need more power. The lead vocal IMO needs a bit more of definition, maybe a tad to the snare drum too {from what I heard}. Everything else sounds fine to me.

Again, nice tune.

Regards,

[crashdummy]

Originally Posted by SafeandSound

Personally as a "Pro ME", I would not want necessarily to be holed up with the
"Is it loud enough" crew, you speak for yourself IMO. Who cannot do loud, any idiot can, it
really undermines the knowledge to make those kind of statements.

I make my own decisions based on what the client requires and my own judgement
as I am sure many others do.

I am with the O.P., sometimes the contents of this forum is best ignored.

Times must be hard for some to invoke such a weak style of criticism.

why you come to post to a mastering forum with these kind of comments? "Pro ME"? I am sure people will disagree to that.

[aivoryuk]

I like Bob's master

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Sorry man, didn't mean to derail. But the thing is, there are some pro ME's on here, so the question was bound to be asked.

But now that it's clear that you specifically asked for no limiting or clipping, people can better judge the mastering IMO.

I'm rather embarrassed by all this attention! But I love Jordan and thank him for his public support. By the way, Jordan did not ask for "no clipping or limiting" and in fact the master includes a little bit of both :-). I think I took him back to about 1995, not 1990 :-).

BK

[jdg]

i like the beeps, hope they make it to the CD!

srsly tho, sounds great here.