BBE Sonic Maximizer Plug In right before the Waves L2 popping problem

[BlueFire]

I have the BBE D82 Plugin then the Waves L2 Limiter right after on the master bus. The BBE definitely gives more clarity to the whole mix but it tends to create an annoying staticky click sound when the kick hits. The clicking sound isn't extremely noticeable but any trained ear could notice it and it bugz the hell out of me. When I bypass the BBE the staticky sound goes completely away but the mix doesn't sparkle. It might be that the BBE can't process a whole mix but the guide says thats when its at its best. I've had success lowering the annoying sound by putting an L2 Limiter then the BBE D82 then another L2 at the end but it doesn't completely take it away. Only bypassing the D82 takes the statick out. I've had this problem before with the Waves X noise plug in coming before the L2 on the master bus as well. This problem has happened to me in ProTools 8, Logic 9 and Nuendo 3.0. Any suggestions?

[mischa janisch]

Originally Posted by BlueFire

I have the BBE D82 Plugin then the Waves L2 Limiter right after on the master bus. The BBE definitely gives more clarity to the whole mix but it tends to create an annoying staticky click sound when the kick hits. The clicking sound isn't extremely noticeable but any trained ear could notice it and it bugz the hell out of me. When I bypass the BBE the staticky sound goes completely away but the mix doesn't sparkle. It might be that the BBE can't process a whole mix but the guide says thats when its at its best. I've had success lowering the annoying sound by putting an L2 Limiter then the BBE D82 then another L2 at the end but it doesn't completely take it away. Only bypassing the D82 takes the statick out. I've had this problem before with the Waves X noise plug in coming before the L2 on the master bus as well. This problem has happened to me in ProTools 8, Logic 9 and Nuendo 3.0. Any suggestions?

I would definitely stay away from any plug in that generates random clicks, no matter how much you like what it is doing... There are so many plugins that work without such annoying bugs - drop an email to the support, but otherways don't waste your time.

[cooker]

try more headroom?

[Mr Phil]

zomg

[Jesse Graffam]

A combination of not enough headroom and 16bit signal path.

While you're fixing the headroom, see if you can figure out why you're at 16bit signal path before your final bit reduction happens.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by BlueFire

Any suggestions?

The best setting for a BBE plug-in (or hardware) would be "bypass".

JT

[ONDRAY]

general rule, 2 positives = a negative... 2 maximizer type plugins = bad news... less is more.

[Jesse Graffam]

Originally Posted by ONDRAY

general rule, 2 positives = a negative... 2 maximizer type plugins = bad news... less is more.

I think you're giving the marketing word "maximizer" too much value. The BBE and the L2 are two completely different things.

Neather of which I like, but that's a whole other topic.

[ONDRAY]

Originally Posted by uncajesse

I think you're giving the marketing word "maximizer" too much value. The BBE and the L2 are two completely different things.

Neather of which I like, but that's a whole other topic.

Either my words came off wrong or i don't know.. but my intention was not to "market" these tools, it was quiet the opposite. I don't care for either of them and never use them. Both of them do maximize in their own way though.

[Freematik]

Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb

The best setting for a BBE plug-in (or hardware) would be "bypass".

JT

+1000

[Jesse Graffam]

Originally Posted by ONDRAY

Either my words came off wrong or i don't know.. but my intention was not to "market" these tools, it was quiet the opposite. I don't care for either of them and never use them. Both of them do maximize in their own way though.

I wasn't saying that at all. I'm saying that you're taking the companies marketing too literally. I guess you could say they "maximize" each in their own way... but my whole point is that "maximize" is a meaningless word in and of itself. That's all.

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by uncajesse

A combination of not enough headroom and 16bit signal path.

While you're fixing the headroom, see if you can figure out why you're at 16bit signal path before your final bit reduction happens.

I may be misinterpreting what you're trying to say but I'm mixing in a 24 bit environment. I'm not sure what you mean by 16 bit signal path.

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by cooker

try more headroom?

I've given the kick more headroom to the point where its not complimenting the mix. The kick is the only thing that it negatively affects in the mix.

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by mischa janisch

I would definitely stay away from any plug in that generates random clicks, no matter how much you like what it is doing... There are so many plugins that work without such annoying bugs - drop an email to the support, but otherways don't waste your time.

You can't name one plug in that does what this thing does. Its amazing....minus the staticky noise on the kick. The clicks aren't random at all. They occur exactly when the kick hits. Thanks though.. I appreciate the effort.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by BlueFire

You can't name one plug in that does what this thing does. Its amazing....minus the staticky noise on the kick. The clicks aren't random at all. They occur exactly when the kick hits. Thanks though.. I appreciate the effort.

Something is obviously clipping, from what you describe!

You'll probably find that it's not actually a limiter (the L2 definitely is), which is probably why you like what it does.

[Getafix]

Instead of using it on the whole mix try using it on different groups (hi-hats, drums, synths etc).

[cooker]

Originally Posted by BlueFire

I've given the kick more headroom to the point where its not complimenting the mix. The kick is the only thing that it negatively affects in the mix.

mmm...then if s-cubes recommendation doesn't work them bounce with no kick, then remove the plug-in and bounce the processed mix with kick :P Such sampled plug-ins that aren't ment for that sort of usage may give errors like this.

[wado1942]

Don't mean to be nasty but the BBE is a band-aid for the lost souls of recording. Probably less than 1% of all mixes you've heard in your life have been made without any brand of spectral enhancer. The Sonic Maximizer was designed to help compensate for the shortcommings of large PA systems commonly available in the 70s. PA gear has come a long way and home stereos have come much farther.
Anyways, if you find your masters don't sound good without that plugin, you're not recording your original tracks very well.

[MASSIVE Master]

Word (to the peeps).

If you honestly feel your mixes benefit from the BBE Sonic "Maximizer" then the point is to find out why. Especially if these are your own mixes... More times than not, it's simply "different" - Not "better."

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by BlueFire

You can't name one plug in that does what this thing does. Its amazing....minus the staticky noise on the kick. The clicks aren't random at all. They occur exactly when the kick hits.

Have you compared the BBE process in/out at equal levels?
More specifically, perhaps you're unwittingly having peak limiting (inherently with super fast attack) reacting to the bass of the kick? (ie, a super fast attack/release and long wavelengths don't always get along...).

Originally Posted by BlueFire

Only bypassing the D82 takes the statick out.

So the benefit of bypassing it would seem to trump the benefit of leaving it in, especially after a gain matched comparison?

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

Word (to the peeps).

If you honestly feel your mixes benefit from the BBE Sonic "Maximizer" then the point is to find out why. Especially if these are your own mixes... More times than not, it's simply "different" - Not "better."

If we wanna speak solely on facts then nothing in music is better just simply "different". I see what your saying but it changes the sound, for the better, when used correctly. I can somewhat achieve what it does manually but it takes a lot of time and effort. Have u ever used it?

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by wado1942

Don't mean to be nasty but the BBE is a band-aid for the lost souls of recording. Probably less than 1% of all mixes you've heard in your life have been made without any brand of spectral enhancer. The Sonic Maximizer was designed to help compensate for the shortcommings of large PA systems commonly available in the 70s. PA gear has come a long way and home stereos have come much farther.
Anyways, if you find your masters don't sound good without that plugin, you're not recording your original tracks very well.

So r u saying that more than 99% of the mixes I've heard have been made with spectral enhancers?........Since u said that less than 1% of those mixes have been made without them...correct? So that would mean that more than 99% of the professional music I've heard were mixed by the lost souls of recording..... based on your strong opinion. There is a major contradiction in your paragraph up there. I think u meant to say the opposite but since you are bleeding of arrogance it is only right that I give you a stupid "band aid".

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

Have you compared the BBE process in/out at equal levels?
More specifically, perhaps you're unwittingly having peak limiting (inherently with super fast attack) reacting to the bass of the kick? (ie, a super fast attack/release and long wavelengths don't always get along...).

So the benefit of bypassing it would seem to trump the benefit of leaving it in, especially after a gain matched comparison?

Well I've came to a point where the noise bothered me so much that I would bypass the damn thing and yes I have compared the processes at equal levels.

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

Something is obviously clipping, from what you describe!

You'll probably find that it's not actually a limiter (the L2 definitely is), which is probably why you like what it does.

Yeah the kick sounds like it's clipping... It seems to overload the BBE. What I don't understand is if the L2 is the last process then why is it clipping. My L2 is set at -0.2. The BBE isn't the only thing that does that though. There are a few other plug ins that have that same affect on the kick when they are on the master bus.

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by s-cube

Instead of using it on the whole mix try using it on different groups (hi-hats, drums, synths etc).

Thats what I ultimately started doing but I wanted to know why it can't go on the masterbus like the manual says.

[BlueFire]

It's definitely clipping because the music sounds exactly the same whether the L2 is on or off. For some reason the BBE is not letting the L2 do its job properly. Which probably means that the L2 may not be dithering either.

[MASSIVE Master]

Originally Posted by BlueFire

If we wanna speak solely on facts then nothing in music is better just simply "different". I see what your saying but it changes the sound, for the better, when used correctly. I can somewhat achieve what it does manually but it takes a lot of time and effort. Have u ever used it?

Of course. I think everyone has at some point. But not (or at least, only incredibly rarely) on an entire mix... Maybe on a bass track (where the bassists was too lazy to change his strings), possibly on tape-to-tape transfer (where it really shined, IMO).

Strap one across a mix in a room full of half "less seasoned" engineers and half "more seasoned" engineers and you can almost bet on the results - The majority of the "less seasoned" engineers are going to say "Wow - That sounds better" (at least at first) and the "more seasoned" engineers are going to say "Wow - That's kinda some weird distortion stuff there" --

Not that there isn't some creative use of distortion in audio... But frankly, the BBE/Aphex Aural Exciter stuff is a little "last century" (to put it mildly) to most. They're associated more with long-term fatigue than short-term "sparkle."

(IMO/E, YMMV, etc., etc., yada, yada...)

[wado1942]

I see what your saying but it changes the sound, for the better, when used correctly.

But considering it's designed to compensate for time shifts created by large speaker columns, you're not using it correctly. That's what it does, it delays certain ranges of frequencies to compensate for 3-way passive crossover networks in PA systems.

So r u saying that more than 99% of the mixes I've heard have been made with spectral enhancers

Thanks for catching my typo. I meant 99% of the stuff you've heard has been made WITHOUT any spectral enhancing. In the 70s, you might have heard a track here or there with an Aural Exciter. And I mean TRACK (like a Fender Rhodes or vocal), within a song, not the whole song itself. That fad was very short lived. Another trick was to record a vocal track with Dolby NR but play back without it. But again, that's one track. I have a couple enhancers in my arsenal believe it or not, but it's been years since I've even plugged in one of them. The last time an Aural exciter was used on a project I touched was for a Fender Rhodes track two or three years ago to bring out the high end instead of using EQ. I don't even have a BBE unit because it's noisy, unpredictable and if I wanted to ruin the phase coherance of a song, I could do it with a crossover.

You may not like what we're saying here & attribute it to arrogance, but it's the truth. You'll find that either your recording needs some work and when you figure out what you're doing to create such dull sound, you won't "need" the BBE anymore or that your masters will sound very harsh against other masters. Just like how one time a guitarist said he recorded all his stuff direct and even though he felt his recordings were good, he wanted an extra edge into sounding more professional. About six different people said he should try recording his instruments with amplifiers and microphones but he said that was too time consuming and that nobody can tell the difference between his DI recordings and mic'ed anyway. We assured him his issues were in how he was recording his music and he never returned. Well, sometimes people tell you things you don't want to hear. It's not to be beligerant, it's to help you get better. That's the purpose of these forums. If you don't want to learn, don't ask for advice. Anyways, sorry if I sounded like a bunghole. I was just trying to drive home a point that Sonic Maximizers don't belong in the studio. They don't even belong in live venues anymore but they keep festering, holding back promising engineers with their addictive damage.

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

Of course. I think everyone has at some point. But not (or at least, only incredibly rarely) on an entire mix... Maybe on a bass track (where the bassists was too lazy to change his strings), possibly on tape-to-tape transfer (where it really shined, IMO).

Strap one across a mix in a room full of half "less seasoned" engineers and half "more seasoned" engineers and you can almost bet on the results - The majority of the "less seasoned" engineers are going to say "Wow - That sounds better" (at least at first) and the "more seasoned" engineers are going to say "Wow - That's kinda some weird distortion stuff there" --

Not that there isn't some creative use of distortion in audio... But frankly, the BBE/Aphex Aural Exciter stuff is a little "last century" (to put it mildly) to most. They're associated more with long-term fatigue than short-term "sparkle."

(IMO/E, YMMV, etc., etc., yada, yada...)

C'mon now. If you have a good mix and use the BBE properly, it is not going to make the mix sound worse. Its only harsh when its on the master bus or over processed just as any other plugin. I could play u a thousand different mixes and you nor anyone else on this forum could tell me which ones were processed with a BBE just from listening to them.

[OMNIFEX]

Originally Posted by BlueFire

C'mon now. If you have a good mix and use the BBE properly, it is not going to make the mix sound worse. Its only harsh when its on the master bus or over processed just as any other plugin. I could play u a thousand different mixes and you nor anyone else on this forum could tell me which ones were processed with a BBE just from listening to them.

The BBE does make good mix sound worse and, I own two (one sitting in the corner and, the other used only as input indicators) which I thought were great 15 years ago.

Of course, I am speaking on the hardware and, do not own the software. However, since the software is designed to emulate the hardware...

Nevertheless, if the emulation meets your standards, continue using it. I'm quite sure many who disagree with you are not using the same devices as your self within the audio chain.

Cheers!