Put your subs to the test...

[bob katz]

Shuttle Launch now in 96K surround

I'd like to present to you the Discovery Shuttle Launch in 96 k surround (4.0). Don't even think of downloading this unless you have one (preferably a pair) very capable subwoofer and an excellent bass-managed system.

Visit We Have Lift-off!! (NOW IN SURROUND) for more information. According to NASA employees who I have interviewed, this recording is the cleanest, most extended, widest-range recording of the Space Shuttle launch that has ever been made. And it was made from the closest position that anyone is permitted to get to the Shuttle except the astronauts themselves, from the 3 mile Press Box vantage point, which requires a special NASA pass. The finest DPA preamps and microphones were used along with a pair of Masterlinks at 96 kHz/24 bit. The gain was pre-calculated and calibrated BEFORE the recording using scientific calculations of the known power of the launch and the SPL loss at this distance. The result: The highest peak (at 8 Hz) landed at exactly -1 dBFS peak! (No second takes allowed). No preamplifier or microphone went into overload; this is a very serious and impacting surround recording that comes as close as possible to the real experience, including the rarely-heard cavitation noises that can only be heard at less than 5 mile distance.

[Tropicana]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Shuttle Launch now in 96K surround

I'd like to present to you the Discovery Shuttle Launch in 96 k surround (4.0). Don't even think of downloading this unless you have one (preferably a pair) very capable subwoofer and an excellent bass-managed system.

Visit We Have Lift-off!! (NOW IN SURROUND) for more information. According to NASA employees who I have interviewed, this recording is the cleanest, most extended, widest-range recording of the Space Shuttle launch that has ever been made. And it was made from the closest position that anyone is permitted to get to the Shuttle except the astronauts themselves, from the 3 mile Press Box vantage point, which requires a special NASA pass. The finest DPA preamps and microphones were used along with a pair of Masterlinks at 96 kHz/24 bit. The gain was pre-calculated and calibrated BEFORE the recording using scientific calculations of the known power of the launch and the SPL loss at this distance. The result: The highest peak (at 8 Hz) landed at exactly -1 dBFS peak! (No second takes allowed). No preamplifier or microphone went into overload; this is a very serious and impacting surround recording that comes as close as possible to the real experience, including the rarely-heard cavitation noises that can only be heard at less than 5 mile distance.

I realized you record it yourself? Wow, thats a special experience.
But then again, you are a special guy. Well, this is my opinion.
Saturday and probably sunday I go to the IBC in Amsterdam.
Would be nice if I have something on disk to see if these speaker manufactures can handle the subs.
PM me if you like the idea.

[macc]

Originally Posted by bob katz

(No second takes allowed).

[Brad Blackwood]

Any chance it will be available without the 'music bed'?

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

Any chance it will be available without the 'music bed'?

+1!! No disrespect to the fine musicians in the brass band - but I'd also much prefer to hear this in its "natural state" than with an additional soundtrack.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

Any chance it will be available without the 'music bed'?

ABSOLUTELY! I've revised the shuttle launch article and the second paragraph describes the surround files which are now downloadable (that's why I posted this thread).

Just register at the digido site (it's an automated email system) to let you get the download. Then go to MEDIA, downloads, in GENERAL and there are two 96K 24 bit stereo files, one for LF/RF and one for LS/RS, free for the taking!

Enjoy!


Bob

[Jesse Graffam]

Maybe people will read what you typed the second time around. Bob, these are STILL fantastic, and even more mind blowing with the back channels. Thanks. Can't wait to try it whenever I setup a huge surround setup again, ideally with some Danley subs.

[puremastering]

This is fantastic. I listened to the surround 4.0 version in my surround configuration. I'm on the ass (Sorry for the bad word :P) We have a real 4.0 with 4 subwoofer. It's awesome.

Thank you Bob

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by puremastering

This is fantastic. I listened to the surround 4.0 version in my surround configuration. I'm on the ass (Sorry for the bad word :P) We have a real 4.0 with 4 subwoofer. It's awesome.

Thank you Bob

Great! Kicks ass, doesn't it :-).


BK

[streetbeats]

Crazy.....cheers for this Bob

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Tropicana

I realized you record it yourself? Wow, thats a special experience.
But then again, you are a special guy. Well, this is my opinion.
Saturday and probably sunday I go to the IBC in Amsterdam.
Would be nice if I have something on disk to see if these speaker manufactures can handle the subs.
PM me if you like the idea.

You're welcome to put these on any disc, if you can play it at the IBC. These files are free for any use except for commercial use. But how would you play them in Amsterdam? With some kind of portable 4 track 96K recorder?

I was thinking of making an AC3 of this, but I think it wouldn't fly. Is there an AC3 96 kHz version? Time to look into some other codecs... Does anyone have a Dolby high res encoder? And in what format does it come out and then how can you play it?

BK

[Tropicana]

Originally Posted by bob katz

You're welcome to put these on any disc, if you can play it at the IBC. These files are free for any use except for commercial use. But how would you play them in Amsterdam? With some kind of portable 4 track 96K recorder?

I was thinking of making an AC3 of this, but I think it wouldn't fly. Is there an AC3 96 kHz version? Time to look into some other codecs... Does anyone have a Dolby high res encoder? And in what format does it come out and then how can you play it?

BK

Saturday I was in the ibc for to check if there was a possibilty to play it somewhere but unfortunally there are not so many speaker manufactures. And they all have no demonstration set up in surround.

btw, I listen to the mastering set of PSI. Not bad at all.

[bcgood]

Thanks for the post Bob. Did you make this recording?

My subs past the test but I have to be honest, I didn't turn the volume level up too high.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Thanks for the post Bob. Did you make this recording?

Yup!

[wado1942]

Does anyone have a Dolby high res encoder? And in what format does it come out and then how can you play it?

DD will support 96KHz but I really don't understand why because it'll just be crushed down to MP2-esque 160-192KHz quality. It'd actually be better IMHO to downsample to 48KHz to encode. Though, even full 5.1 DD won't have the bandwidth to reconstruct those kinds of detailed transients. If I were to put this on a DVD, I'd personally go for stereo PCM. Good stereo is better than bad surround. Now DTS may have some promise but that's 44.1/48K only (as far as I know) and don't have any way to encode it. Or if it's for the theater, you could use SDDS which is the same as ATRAC and that's not too bad.

Man, theater sound in general sucks. I really wish they'd come up with a replacement for DTS using 6-channel PCM, not that they'd ever use it. There was actually a 4-channel optical analogue system that made its appearance in the late 80s that'd knock the socks off any digital theater format even without noise reduction. The thing is, it was cheap and somewhat backwards compatible with existing optical heads (no sound improvement though). Too bad digital hype had already taken place. But I digress.
Seriously though, I won't go to a movie that's presented in DD anymore because I just sit there thinking about how bad the sound is.

[trmchenry]

Ha. LONG time lurker registering just because I FINALLY have something to add to the conversation.

The new Dolby and DTS encoding schemes, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, are lossless encoding schemes based on Meridian Lossless Packing.

Meridian is supported by all DVD players that support DVD-Audio in 5.1 channels up to 24-bit 96k.

Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are supported as discrete PCM streams by any Blu-ray player conforming to at least the HDMI 1.1 spec.

DVD-Audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Meridian Lossless Packing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dolby TrueHD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
DTS-HD Master Audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bob, thanks for the awesome recording.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by trmchenry

Ha. LONG time lurker registering just because I FINALLY have something to add to the conversation.

The new Dolby and DTS encoding schemes, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, are lossless encoding schemes based on Meridian Lossless Packing.

Meridian is supported by all DVD players that support DVD-Audio in 5.1 channels up to 24-bit 96k.

Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are supported as discrete PCM streams by any Blu-ray player conforming to at least the HDMI 1.1 spec.

DVD-Audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Meridian Lossless Packing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dolby TrueHD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
DTS-HD Master Audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bob, thanks for the awesome recording.

Thanks, guy! But who's got an affordable TrueHD or DTS-HD encoder?

BK

[trmchenry]

If memory serves me correctly I remember Dolby Digital AC3 encoders costing many thousands of dollars back in the late 90s. Once DVD really picked up as a consumer format the price dropped rather quickly. Hell, one even installs with Logic Studio now and I wouldn't be surprised to see the TrueHD format built into Apple Compressor once Apple picks up the slack and starts to support Blu-ray in all of their computers.

I do know that open source, backwards engineered, Dolby TrueHD decoding is currently available as a patch to FFmpeg. Usually that means that open source, backwards engineered, Dolby TrueHD encoding isn't too far behind. DTS has always been tricky for the code monkeys. I know decoders are available, but I'm not aware of any open source DTS encoders.

Something that escaped me at the time of the original post, what with all of that Dolby talk, is that the Blu-ray spec makes Linear PCM audio MANDATORY. It will play up to 8 discrete channels of uncompressed audio. Now, the limitations on bit and sample rates of uncompressed audio on Blu-ray are a mystery to me, but I'd be willing to bet that your four channels of 24/96 would be no problem.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by trmchenry

Something that escaped me at the time of the original post, what with all of that Dolby talk, is that the Blu-ray spec makes Linear PCM audio MANDATORY. It will play up to 8 discrete channels of uncompressed audio. Now, the limitations on bit and sample rates of uncompressed audio on Blu-ray are a mystery to me, but I'd be willing to bet that your four channels of 24/96 would be no problem.

mmmm.... has anyone cut a blu-ray disc, even a rom? I remember something about someone cutting a CD ROM that will play in a Blu-Ray machine with the right headers in it...

BK

[trmchenry]

Originally Posted by bob katz

mmmm.... has anyone cut a blu-ray disc, even a rom? I remember something about someone cutting a CD ROM that will play in a Blu-Ray machine with the right headers in it...

BK

That's an intriguing question. I know that my Blu-ray player reads all types of optical media I throw at it. CD/DVD/SACD/DVD-A

Some Sony camcorders have been using an HD video recording format called AVCHD which is only a DVD with a Blu-ray BDMV file structure. I also know that you can burn a DVD file structure to CD and it will play in any DVD player.

I'll have to do some more research about the BDMV file structure and get to some experimenting this weekend.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by trmchenry

That's an intriguing question. I know that my Blu-ray player reads all types of optical media I throw at it. CD/DVD/SACD/DVD-A

Some Sony camcorders have been using an HD video recording format called AVCHD which is only a DVD with a Blu-ray BDMV file structure. I also know that you can burn a DVD file structure to CD and it will play in any DVD player.

I'll have to do some more research about the BDMV file structure and get to some experimenting this weekend.

Actually, maybe I remembered it wrong, and what we're talking about IS a DVD with a BDMV file structure. But then, how to do it? I have no idea what software to use. DVD Studio Pro certainly won't do this.

[Darwin James]

I dont know Bob, not enough Auto-tune.

[Key]

Thanks downloading.

Well for a download it would probably be better to use something free to the public like FLAC or wavpack. I can encode it easily for you in that format. Both are win/mac/linux compatible.

As far as Blu-ray I think what you are talking about are BD5 and BD9 discs which are basically normal DVD-Rs with blu-ray structures. I've never made one myself - lack the motivation for burning formats lately. But maybe you could make one with tsMuxeR or something.

[DynaForte]

I wouldn't bring this up, nor change the exact direction of the topic, but here's a comment from the page Bob Katz linked to in the original post:

...But then the bass would not be in stereo, and the shuttle definitely sounds better to me with stereo bass.

"sounds better to me" I'm all cool with. Whatever. But, I don't have a bass management system, just a 5.1 system.

What would stereo bass possibly show me that mono bass wouldn't? I have never heard such a comment before! And yet, I have never excepted that "bass is omnidirectional" or that "you can't hear where low frequencies come from". I sure as hell can. But I've never heard someone talk about stereo bass before.

So curious. For those of you with stereo bass, do you hear something different? Is it mostly phasing and a Doppler effect?

[Key]

Basically L and R do not phase align perfectly in the real world. So when you take 2 mics and sum them down to 1 for the bass you will get phase cancelation most likely. Diffraction effects can build up around the sub and cause things to be localized poorly as well. On my quad setup if I use the sub it can have a weird transition from stereo to mono as the notes get lower - provided the bass has a stereo image or transients.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Key

Thanks downloading.

Well for a download it would probably be better to use something free to the public like FLAC or wavpack. I can encode it easily for you in that format. Both are win/mac/linux compatible.

Are you talking about a multi-channel FLAC? Then what multichannel software do you use to reproduce it after downloading? The way I see that, the FLAC would just be a way of saving download time but adding a nuisance once you received it. I can play stereo FLACs directly using my Logitech Transporter

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/sp.../3163&cl=US,EN

but we all need some kind of multichannel encode/decode (such as Dolby True HD) in order to make it a portable "single-file" solution.

As far as Blu-ray I think what you are talking about are BD5 and BD9 discs which are basically normal DVD-Rs with blu-ray structures. I've never made one myself - lack the motivation for burning formats lately. But maybe you could make one with tsMuxeR or something.

Which is a foreign language to me. I'm sure I could learn it, but need to know much more!

[Key]

I know for sure Foobar - which is really popular because of it's ASIO support - works fine with multichannel wav flac and wavpack. I would think winamp can play them by now too but I haven't used it in years.

It seems much more convenient than what I had to do with the wavs - import into a destructive editor, make a quad file, copy and paste the channels, save to a new multichannel wav file, then play in foobar as opposed to just playing the file.

As far as using TSmuxer you can import the multichannel wav file directly into the program and it will multiplex a Blu-ray with uncompressed PCM - no Dolby kick back required.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Key

As far as using TSmuxer you can import the multichannel wav file directly into the program and it will multiplex a Blu-ray with uncompressed PCM - no Dolby kick back required.

Foobar doesn't take it far enough for me, as I can play the multichannel files in Sequoia. But TSmuxer to make an ISO file is intriguing. Can we cut this to a standard DVD disc that will play back these four (two stereo) uncompressed files in a Blu-Ray player?

[Key]

While I have used TSmuxer with some multiplexing experiments - which happened to 4.0 as well and worked on my PC - I rarely burn anything since my best LCD and monitors are on this computer. I just know it is possible and have skimmed a few guides and downloaded a couple of BD9s.

I think there are actually a couple of ways to do it - Blu-ray vs AVCHD.
AVCHD INFORMATION WEB SITE

Maybe run a search for a how-to I have to go to work in a half hour or I would do it out of curiosity.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Yup!

Very cool, so I take it you like the DPA pre amps. Did you ever consider the Earthworks 1022's instead?

I love how you calculated how to set the levels. You are truly an engineers, engineer.