How to avoid the Loudness War and still compete?

[whowasmai]

obviously i'm aware that this subject has been broached here more times than some of you are comfortable with. so i apologize in advance for making you want to lose your last meal.

i'm mainly a songwriter/musician and i'm new to the field of "sound," but i can say that i am definitely not a fan of everything getting extraordinarily louder. to me everything sounds overly loud and lacks any real character or substance (well, not everything, but the majority of mainstream music).

i'm just starting out as an artist and i'll be releasing my debut projects in the coming months, so this topic is of particular interest to me right now. we are about to go into the mastering phase and i've spent the past few weeks reading up on mastering and actually trying to do it myself (not that i think i can do it, but i want to understand what it is and how it can change my music). anyway, i am really caught betwixt and between the battle of loud vs. quality. i want to have the best possible mix that will really make my songs have life, but i also want them to compete. you know what i mean? i guess what i'm saying is this: i'm afraid that if i don't join the loudness war my music will not be able to compete. i'm curious to see what the pro mastering engineers have to say about this.

[polybonk]

you could get a master for radio and a master for the music preview in your download store and then get the tracks mastered for the cd release done how you like them. Lots of space in the rms.

[djwaudio]

Originally Posted by roboticbirds

obviously i'm aware that this subject has been broached here more times than some of you are comfortable with. so i apologize in advance for making you want to lose your last meal.

Phew, I was about to reach for the cyanide capsule.


Seriously, COMPETE? This is your music!!! Not a major label's property, or some A&R persons neurosis. The minute you are comparing your work with something else, you are no longer making music.

It's a wise person who rules their levels. It's a fool who's ruled by them... or something like that.

[whowasmai]

Originally Posted by polybonk

you could get a master for radio and a master for the music preview in your download store and then get the tracks mastered for the cd release done how you like them. Lots of space in the rms.

interesting idea (although it will definitely cost me more!).

but i really like the idea about separate masters for radio and CD. one for artistic purposes and one for selling your soul.

[whowasmai]

Originally Posted by djwaudio

Phew, I was about to reach for the cyanide capsule.


Seriously, COMPETE? This is your music!!! Not a major label's property, or some A&R persons neurosis. The minute you are comparing your work with something else, you are no longer making music.

It's a wise person who rules their levels. It's a fool who's ruled by them... or something like that.

no doubt, it's my music and i want to control it. but i also don't want it to be looked down upon because it's not "modern enough." i guess i'm just green to all of this, but i want to have a balance. you know?

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by roboticbirds

i want to have the best possible mix that will really make my songs have life, but i also want them to compete. you know what i mean?

Have one's cake and eat it too - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[thermos]

I have a friend who just had his band's record mastered by Bob Ludwig. The real rockers came out around -13 db rms (aaah, relax the shoulders). But he also made them a hot copy to give to radio and such if they felt like it. So thats what they did, dynamic record and loud copies to send to deaf pr people.

[bcgood]

Screw any moron that would prefer a lifeless smashed master. In ten or twenty years you will be glad if you master for best possible sound, nothing else.

Choose wisely, your art is your art. If you decide it is a, "here today gone tomorrow" commodity instead then that is a whole nother ball "O" wax.

[rocksure]

Don't know why people seem to think that loud and distorted with lots of extreme limiting and no dynamics makes music sound good. It's a shame that so much music is like that. I am recording/mixing engineer rather than a mastering engineer, but I do find myself mastering some projects and try to balance between what sounds good to my ears and making it loud. I don't profess to be a master of mastering, but I just can't bring myself to really slam something just for the sake of a little extra apparent volume.

[kjg]

Don't compete in the sense of loudness. Compete in the sense of making no-compromise art. Believe in your vision! The vision includes how your music should sound, right? (and thus, how loud it should be). Don't compromise. You know when it is right.
If you want to be in art that is. If you are in the entertainment industry, maybe crunch it, or take the dual master route.
If you have a vision that you truly believe in, I would advise you to spend your whole mastering budget on one very good ME though (at least one has already posted in this thread...). Do not spread your budget out too thin to get two or three masters. Get one to sound as it should according to your vision.

Make a statement about the route you chose on your website, in interviews, on myspace etc. Taking a stand for your art is much more modern than crunching it to compete with major label turds that no one over 20 takes seriously anyway.
People will respect you for believing in your music and vision more than for compromising your music by making it harsh, flat and loud, and might be more interested to check it out.

Good luck!
Klaas-Jan

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by roboticbirds

obviously i'm aware that this subject has been broached here more times than some of you are comfortable with. so i apologize in advance for making you want to lose your last meal.

i'm mainly a songwriter/musician and i'm new to the field of "sound," but i can say that i am definitely not a fan of everything getting extraordinarily louder. to me everything sounds overly loud and lacks any real character or substance (well, not everything, but the majority of mainstream music).

i'm just starting out as an artist and i'll be releasing my debut projects in the coming months, so this topic is of particular interest to me right now. we are about to go into the mastering phase and i've spent the past few weeks reading up on mastering and actually trying to do it myself (not that i think i can do it, but i want to understand what it is and how it can change my music). anyway, i am really caught betwixt and between the battle of loud vs. quality. i want to have the best possible mix that will really make my songs have life, but i also want them to compete. you know what i mean? i guess what i'm saying is this: i'm afraid that if i don't join the loudness war my music will not be able to compete. i'm curious to see what the pro mastering engineers have to say about this.

Don't be worrying too much about volume!

Just get the best performance and get it recorded well!

Get the mix eng to work the mixes until you are happy with em and don't be scared to turn your hi fi up!

Get the mastering eng to just concentrate on making em sound right at a reasonable volume!

The best sounding records are often not the loudest, not the quietest, but somewhere in the middle!

[lerone]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Screw any moron that would prefer a lifeless smashed master. In ten or twenty years you will be glad if you master for best possible sound, nothing else.

Choose wisely, your art is your art. If you decide it is a, "here today gone tomorrow" commodity instead then that is a whole nother ball "O" wax.

My sentiments exactly! In 20 years time, it would be far greater to hear 'Doesn't that XXXXX record from back in the day sound beautiful?! Amazing.' instead of 'Cawwww, that XXXXX record sounds like a total pile of bollocks, even for the noughties!'

[kjg]

Originally Posted by lerone

My sentiments exactly! In 20 years time, it would be far greater to hear 'Doesn't that XXXXX record from back in the day sound beautiful?! Amazing.' instead of 'Cawwww, that XXXXX record sounds like a total pile of bollocks, even for the noughties!'

Exactly

[IIIrd]

you're only a victim of the loudness war if you choose to fight. my advice is don't. you're music and your concience will always be clear.

[lucey]

You can have loud and good with the right engineer. But anyway it's your record, make it as you want it and damn the world.

[lerone]

Originally Posted by lucey

You can have loud and good with the right engineer. But anyway it's your record, make it as you want it and damn the world.

Yes it can still sound good, and it does totally depend on the engineer. I know I can cut a good record with very high RMS, as can loads of other engineers, it's certainly nothing new. But Brian, we know that shredded records ultimately don't sound as good, theres a definite limit (no pun intended). And yes, by all means, the guy should do whatever he wants with the music, after all, it is his. But he obviously doesnt want to smash it, he's looking for a half-way house. I think to damn the world, he should leave it bouncin'. I think encouraging people to leave more dynamic range in their music is a much more positive message to be giving.

[nofi]

loudness shmoudness.... only generic drivel (like the last metallica album, and most top 40 stuff no-one will remember next week) needs to assault people and blast itself into your presence forcefully.

make your music awesome, record it all with instruments that have amazing tone, get it mixed down really well, and a competent masterer to make it sound as well balanced and alive as possible, and people will turn it up when it's on!

[KyleDiSanto]

I dont mean to sound like a smart ass here but...just write Great Songs... Imo a great song doesn't have to compete.

[Ben F]

All mixes are different, and can only be pushed so far without degrading the music significantly. Best just to make your record sound as good as possible, and push the level as far as the mixes allow- there will always be a louder CD out there.

[bcgood]

I'm going to give you some advice. You should avoid mastering engineers that try to put pressure on you to be loud or "competitive." These engineers are interested in making money and they believe that by offering "good" loudness they shine in what they can do over and above the typical bedroom warrior engineer.

Keep in mind though, most of the greatest selling and loved albums from the past where not mastered for loudness they where mastered to sound great. They give your ears and mind space to breath and these types of masters love to be turned up and enjoyed all the way through. What many, (even many engineers) don't realize is that masters that aren't even super loud would still benefit from being quite a bit lower in volume for long term listening pleasure for the listener. Over the long haul the listener or fan will listen to your album a lot more than the mastering engineer so master it for them not someone who claims to be an expert who's essentially just looking to make a buck in the name of making your album competitive. In fact, if anything a great sounding album that is lower in volume will stick out among the pack of copy cat ear fatigue loud masters.




Here's some further reading: Loudness war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[kosmasepsilon]

safest way is to make the track sound loud enough before putting the limiter and just squash it for volume's sake. this can be achieved with good compression & equalising techniques.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by bcgood

I'm going to give you some advice. You should avoid mastering engineers that try to put pressure on you to be loud or "competitive."

Name one!

Any pro is so very happy when you're happy at -10, or -12 RMS or lower. Loudness is not generated by MEs, it's a response they make to clients wants.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by lucey

Any pro is so very happy when you're happy at -10, or -12 RMS or lower. Loudness is not generated by MEs, it's a response they make to clients wants.

I know, but I wish there where more vocal mastering engineers actively involved in educating and even influencing clients towards much lower levels.

That's all, I'm just slightly passionate on this subject.

[chironomidae]

I wouldn't bother with two masters for radio and cd - radio stations smash their music to hell anyways, so heavy limiting will just add more distortion over the air (there have been several topics on this subject).

[Bob Olhsson]

Do your homework!

The goal for pitching to radio should be "just loud enough" and not "just as loud as you can make it." A lot of "indi" stuff is way louder than it needs to be.

By all means also make a high res version for the future, videos, etc. If you don't need to win in a pogramming meeting, the high res version could actually sound louder and bigger on the air!

[daez]

Originally Posted by chironomidae

I wouldn't bother with two masters for radio and cd - radio stations smash their music to hell anyways, so heavy limiting will just add more distortion over the air (there have been several topics on this subject).

exactly radio stations have a crazy signal chain to keep everything even.If your doing it yourself I often use a l2 or another and bring it up to loudness -.3 with no attenuation so your making it loud as possible without cutting off the peaks and this helps maintain the signal.

[whowasmai]

Wow, I must say that I've already learned a lot and I feel better about what's to come after all these great responses.

Thanks!!!

[MarkRB]

The poor ME.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by lerone

I think encouraging people to leave more dynamic range in their music is a much more positive message to be giving.

I'm not a preacher or Stewart Smalley, I provide a service to artists. I may offer them 3 passes at various levels of limiting, and let them choose, if they are unsure what they need.

Too many times they say they want it dynamic, and really want it at -9 !

RMS less than -10 can sound very nice for many styles assuming a good mix with appropriate distortion and compression. There are too many variables with a mix or a record to get more specific in the hypothetical.

[666]

Remember when the loudness war was won by the dude with the biggest amp? Just point at a volume knob and say 'use it'.