How to avoid the Loudness War and still compete?

[lerone]

Originally Posted by lucey

I'm not a preacher or Stewart Smalley, I provide a service to artists. I may offer them 3 passes at various levels of limiting, and let them choose, if they are unsure what they need.

Too many times they say they want it dynamic, and really want it at -9 !

Not having a pop mate, just making a point. Its just nice to see an active interest in dynamics from a musician who isn't mega-paranoid about about loudness...Secondly (in regard to your above quote)...aint that the truth!

[PELicanWord]

Originally Posted by daez

exactly radio stations have a crazy signal chain to keep everything even.If your doing it yourself I often use a l2 or another and bring it up to loudness -.3 with no attenuation so your making it loud as possible without cutting off the peaks and this helps maintain the signal.

Indeed, just make your album sound fantastic. The radio stations will compress it to death anyways before transmitting it

[Silver Sonya]

Trust the power of your songs. Aim high in life. You will die some day. Don't lose the bird's eye view.

"How to compete" is a loathsome, sports-like notion to me, the absence of which I am savoring on my year's sabbatical away from this field.

I keep fantasizing about never coming back, but then some amazing project or startling music yanks me back to remembering why I was once passionate enough about sound to choose to make it the center of my life and career.

- c

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

..."How to compete" is a loathsome, sports-like notion to me, the absence of which I am savoring on my year's sabbatical away from this field...

The facts of life are that every single artist is competing with every other artist for the attention of potential fans. It's no different than achieving first chair in a high school band or orchestra. Music has always been a meritocracy. I think it's pretty delusional to suggest otherwise because we are all music fans too.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Trust the power of your songs. Aim high in life. You will die some day. Don't lose the bird's eye view.

"How to compete" is a loathsome, sports-like notion to me, the absence of which I am savoring on my year's sabbatical away from this field.

I keep fantasizing about never coming back, but then some amazing project or startling music yanks me back to remembering why I was once passionate enough about sound to choose to make it the center of my life and career.

- c

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Music has always been a meritocracy.

Would that this were true!

I would look forward to hearing Arto Lindsay on the radio every night.



Look, I should modify my dismissive statement. I do understand the human need for being noticed, and I also recognize that competition in the arts is what pushed many great things forward. Dizzie Gillespie was a competitive dude. Sometimes people do great things in order to just kick someone else's ass. Many of the great works of music have been galvanized partially by the need to outdo some other work. Sgt. Peppers was essentially the Beatles way of saying "Yeah, Pet Sounds is nice and everything, but check this out."

I get it. I do.

It's just that in mastering, it's never a confident thing. It's always about fear. If it were confident, I could get behind it. But the loudness war is insecure madness and is predicated on the false idea that being hyper-loud gets you noticed, instead of tuned out and forgotten.

Though this idea is disproven time and time again, it persists in the industry, which is reason #2287 that the industry won't exist in roughly four years or so. Maybe less.

- c

[bcgood]

Not to mention that competitiveness that brings about great work like Sg. Peppers is a little different than competitiveness that degrades the listening experience. Don't you think?

[whowasmai]

Just to clarify my take on competion.

As mentioned in this thread, competition in music is natural and can bring about master works (i.e. Rubber Soul = Pet Sounds = Sgt. Pepper's = Smile). I don't think it's bad to be in competition with others.

However, when I talk about competing in the loudness war, I am not talking about the quality of my songwriting or performance. First is first, and those aspects are ALWAYS first on my list because it's what I can control most as a songwriter/performer. However, the quality of the sound/recording is not something I get to control much -- even if I try to be as involved as I can. My feeling is that this "loudness war" is a zeitgeist movement that many people flock to because, well, many people flock to it. It's sort of like everyone going to see the James Bond movies just because it's a James Bond movie. And it's just like writers and directors trying to make a James Bond kind of movie just because it's popular. The fact is that most musicians who do music for a living want to be popular. It's not only their art, it's their business. So of course my art means more to me than anything, but I also want to have success. Will I sell my art and soul for it? No way. But any commercial success comes with a sort of comprising of your "standards." The question is: How much am I willing to compromise?

That is really what I mean by competition. Can I avoid making my song disgustingly loud and still win over the "common" ears? After reading the response here, I feel better about things. So keep the responses coming! Perhaps some examples of current releases that give a middle finger to the loudness war?

[bcgood]

You're not listening robotic birds...

[whowasmai]

Originally Posted by bcgood

You're not listening robotic birds...

No, no, I am. I may have my opinions, but I'm green to all of this and I realize that this forum is full of great minds on the subject. I am all ears and I am taking all of these opinions into consideration!

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by roboticbirds

The question is: How much am I willing to compromise?

That's always the question, isn't it? It's never "How great can I make this?"

You seem like a lovely person, forgive my sometimes infamous caustic writing tone.

But the fact that the question every musician asks is always one of "I don't like it, but I feel like I have to..." and then they grimace and proceed to ask me to brutalize their art.

It's never a good, confident approach to competition. Spiritually, it sucks. Which is why music is losing its grip on the public imagination. It's fearful, uninspiring thinking at so many levels.

This is the way music works: if people fall in love with your spell, they buy it.

Trust your spell.

- c

[kjg]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

That's always the question, isn't it? It's never "How great can I make this?"

You seem like a lovely person, forgive my sometimes infamous caustic writing tone.

But the fact that the question every music asks is always one of "I don't like it, but I feel like I have to..." and then they grimace and proceed to ask me to brutalize their art.

It's never a good, confident approach to competition. Spiritually, it sucks. Which is why music is losing its grip on the public imagination. It's fearful, uninspiring thinking at so many levels.

This is the way music works: if people fall in love with your spell, they buy it.

Trust your spell.

- c

Exactly.

Seriously, you should make the sound quality/color part of your musical and artistic vision. Try to get as close to that vision as possible, and release just that. Without compromising anything just for loudness.

[whowasmai]

OK, my decision has been made. I am going to go with my vision and give the loudness war a big middle finger.

Thank you to all who have responded. I am not more determined than ever to understand the the mixing and mastering part of music. So I guess the next questions you will be seeing are about EQ, compression and dB. ;-)

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by roboticbirds

OK, my decision has been made. I am going to go with my vision and give the loudness war a big middle finger.

Thank you to all who have responded. I am not more determined than ever to understand the the mixing and mastering part of music. So I guess the next questions you will be seeing are about EQ, compression and dB. ;-)

You had me at "middle finger."



Good luck with your music! Keep us informed when it's coming out.

cheers,
c

[whowasmai]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

You had me at "middle finger."



Good luck with your music! Keep us informed when it's coming out.

cheers,
c

Thanks, I absolutely will!

[Mr.HOLMES]

Thats funny myself I also compose and mix bran-dings and music for adverts in the local radio....etc....

Guess what people are asking when it does not sounds squashed to death.

This is tragic people made a listing habit over the past decades they expect music must sound distorted and without dynamics.... tragic.... very tragic......

[bcgood]

Congrats!

"You've just taken your first step into a larger world."

[fossaree]

For those comitted , please check out Charle's Dye org :
Turn Me Up! | Bringing Dynamics Back To Music

[thethrillfactor]

For the guys who suggest making two masters, is it one price for both or two seperate prices for each? Basically is the client paying double or just one whole price? I am finishing up a project for someone and this idea of making a "smashed" and a 'hi-fi" version came up but then the question of the costs came in as well.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

For the guys who suggest making two masters, is it one price for both or two seperate prices for each? Basically is the client paying double or just one whole price? I am finishing up a project for someone and this idea of making a "smashed" and a 'hi-fi" version came up but then the question of the costs came in as well.

That will most likely depend on workflow of the ME and the specific project in question. (Here, on most masters, it's no significant amount of extra work, so there's usually no extra charge for a cleaner/hotter version.)

[fossaree]

there wouldn't make any sense charges disparately ...

Unless the new fashion is:
"Want it a la Metallica's moda ? Ok It's 200 bucks each 0,5 db ! "

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I am finishing up a project for someone and this idea of making a "smashed" and a 'hi-fi" version came up but then the question of the costs came in as well.

While it looks like a good concept on paper, I wouldn't think to many ME's are getting paid twice to master two versions of the same album. Not saying it hasn't happened, but if someone can commit to a mix they can commit to master.

[mac black]

It's strange how the industry has been changing over time, the death of vinyl has a lot to do with it i believe.
Everyone is an engineer and a mastering engineer these days, there is no more fixed standard.
For some people loud is good, for some it destroys the sound.
Dynamics are no longer an issue with listeners, lack of it is.
I had to change my production technique in order to fit the 'loudness wars', so now, I try to find the dynamics 'above zero', distorted mix is not wrong, it's just distorted, some people prefer it, and to be honest, before we judge whether a record is 'flat lined; we need to listen to the music and realize how musicianship as we knew it, has changed, for some, it got worse, for some, it got better.
There are no more rules or regulations, just a bunch of opinions and the loudest mouth wins ... pure sonic anarchy.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

For the guys who suggest making two masters, is it one price for both or two seperate prices for each? Basically is the client paying double or just one whole price? I am finishing up a project for someone and this idea of making a "smashed" and a 'hi-fi" version came up but then the question of the costs came in as well.

I think you'd mostly just have an extra parts charge. I'd certainly try to minimize any extra expense and virtually everybody I know feels the same way.