Levels to mastering?

[Sigma]

i mixed a tune for a client ..it was rap..kick , 808 sub , bass and thin pad plus vocals..it was very easy to get to -8 rms levels

so what does mastering engineer do..somehow he gets levels to -5.9 which i have never seen..the files are distorted and when i did an import comparison..the wave tops looked like a messa instead of a hill

i like my mixes to run thru an api 200 and an L3 on the mix bus

i was only hitting -2 tops on the 2500 and hitting -3 db sporadically on the L3

the mix didn't sound crushed but nice and glued

the mastering eng told the client the mix was was too hot [err i compared it level wise both apparent and real to current hit rap cd's] so why did he make it hotter?

i could have just pulled the output down on the L3 and sent it to him [ i run -.3 on the L3 out as to leave a tiny bit of space before 0 but could have ganked it down if that was an issue] or he could have lowered level and done his mastering

so whats the skinny..what is the issue of sending a clean hot mix..as i come from the background of tape and viny, school me

[inlinenl]

so your mix was already - 08.00 RMS.



the patient is dead or at least in coma .....

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

so your mix was already - 08.00 RMS.



the patient is dead or at least in coma .....

yes bet -11 and -8 and CLEAN! its a kick snare bass and rap repeating pattern not a symphony

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Sigma

i was only hitting -2 tops on the 2500 and hitting -3 db sporadically on the L3

Hip hop and rap rarely have dynamics to speak of, so when you say "-3 db sporadically", it was probably living there for the duration.

Might be good for future work to give a client mix's with and without mix buss compression and limiting.

[inlinenl]

no dynamics is a test-tone for 4 min .... I already get a bit dislocated when listening for 5 min to a 1 KHz testone ...
for sure rap/hip-hops needs dynamics ... so no limiting please ...
okay on a group maybe ... but my *** why on the 2-BUS ...

I don't know, maybe you go for the 15$ a track mastering ... but working like that is underestimating the benefits off a real ME ...
mastering beat orientated music is about enhancing the drive/motion/excitment ... not slammming it flat ....

a mix does not have to be clean .... it has to have some dynamics ... clean or crushed ...

[lucey]

No limiting or digital clipping on the mix please. Any level is fine.

[Waltz Mastering]

Hi Wim,

I think you mis-understood what I was saying.

The point I was trying to make is that the op's use of the word "sporadic" is very suspect since hip hop is very static (On the whole, and overall, not as dynamic as other genre's of music).

Pretty easy stuff, right?

Basically, if he's already crushing the track on the mix there's no room for an ME to do anything else.

So I recommended leaving any BW limiting OFF so there is room for an ME to work.

Basically agreeing with what you already said, "dead on arrival"

PS, My rates are on my web site.
VVVVV

[inlinenl]

Tom, I got your message first time .....
just was a bit reaction to "Hip hop and rap rarely have dynamics"
did not mean to argue with you ..
it was more to the OP ... he was going for the $15 ... not you !!!!!!
I never would come on to a smc-2b friend like that :-)

[wado1942]

Well let me put it this way,
if you're both compressing and limiting your mixes before it gets into his hands, you destroy any chance he has of making a clean sounding record. That's all that's to it. If he has to EQ anything, all those peaks you crushed out of the mix reappear, except you'll still hear the original limiting. It still sounds limited but you have all these peaks that force down the level of the master. So you either have to live with a low-level master or the mastering engineer has to crush the mix a second time. Also, if one mix sounds like it's a bit lower than another, he can either lower the louder one (which has become a taboo in our age of digital limiters) or further limit/clip the lower level one.

My advice is, don't try to make your mixes compete with the levels of squashed masters. If you want the master to be super-loud, tell the mastering engineer to do it where it can be done more effectively. Otherwise, you have to deal with the same kind of treatment twice and music just can't live through all that processing. You can either master the record yourself like you did in this case, or you can have somebody else do it. Don't do both.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

just was a bit reaction to "Hip hop and rap rarely have dynamics

Gothcha, I meant that very "generally"and more so to prove a point that the
original post is a "Joke"... considering where it's coming from.; )

There's no limiter that would hit "sporadically" in Hip Hop.

Good one Mike. It was the part in your sig about the "art residing between the notes" that gave you away.

Busted! bet

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

Hi Wim,

I think you mis-understood what I was saying.

The point I was trying to make is that the op's use of the word "sporadic" is very suspect since hip hop is very static (On the whole, and overall, not as dynamic as other genre's of music).

Pretty easy stuff, right?

Basically, if he's already crushing the track on the mix there's no room for an ME to do anything else.

So I recommended leaving any BW limiting OFF so there is room for an ME to work.

Basically agreeing with what you already said, "dead on arrival"

PS, My rates are on my web site.
VVVVV

i push up certain things to pump the mix bus compressor..after a few hrs of mixing i pop in the comprssor/comprssors and mix "thru" them..at that ponit i start pumping the mix..after that the mix would collapse as somethings are pushed up to "excite the compressor"

if you don't hear the crush it ain't crushed..i tend t use 2 light compressors rather than 1 nailer on each track and tthen a glue compressor and a peak on the mix bus

ehhh after 2 tries the client just told the mastering engineer to basically do nothing and send my track out to me duplicated as i did it..he said none of the "mastered" versions sounded as good

client happy..me happy

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Sigma

if you don't hear the crush it ain't crushed..

Word? ... Lately I've been using "air" compressors (Briggs & Stratton) to pump up the mix.

[lerone]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

Hip hop and rap rarely have dynamics to speak of, so when you say "-3 db sporadically", it was probably living there for the duration.

Might be good for future work to give a client mix's with and without mix buss compression and limiting.

Yeah right! Seriously drop that L3 of the mix buss at least. Permanently if you can. Fairplay with the API, thats down to taste, but still it would be wise to print 2 mixes, 1 with & 1 without.thumbsup

[Tropicana]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

Hip hop and rap rarely have dynamics to speak of, so when you say "-3 db sporadically", it was probably living there for the duration.

Might be good for future work to give a client mix's with and without mix buss compression and limiting.

Ever listen to Blackstreet or Dr. Dre? Good mixed/mastered hiphop music has a lot of dynamics. Thats the most important thing to make from a groove a real groove.
No dynamics is what you hear in many hardrock/metal music.

The problem is that a lot of "producers/engineers" dont know how to mix the way a Dr Dre or a Teddy Riley do. They think that sound is made in the mastering.

I told many times clients, even top producers in and outside my country not to use maximizers on the stereo output.
The best thing for mixing is using, for example an L3 to get close to that sound they are looking for. Bounce the mix without the L3.
In the end the mastering engineer can do the rest.

With very good EQ's in the right hands, a mastering engineer can add just that 5% more the mix guy was looking for.

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by Sigma

if you don't hear the crush it ain't crushed..i tend t use 2 light compressors rather than 1 nailer on each track and tthen a glue compressor and a peak on the mix bus

If it sounds good, it sounds good. Just bare in mind that total compression ratio is the product – not the sum – of its parts. Eg, even if you conservatively had 1.5:1 + 1.5:1 + 1.5:1 + 10:1 limiter, that's about 34:1... As mentioned, it can severely lock out the scope of any required pre-compression mastering EQ.

[wado1942]

if you don't hear the crush it ain't crushed..

I guess can understand that sentiment, but what I'm saying is if you had NOT put the L3 on the mix, then the master sound much cleaner. Translucent process + another translucent process = opaque. Though your logic is invalid. Saying "even though it's crushed, you can't hear it, therefore it isn't crushed" doesn't work. Regardless, you can at least somewhat hear the effects of the L3 otherwise you wouldn't use it. That L3 is compounded with whatever limiter the mastering engineer is using and thus destroys the transparancy of both limiters. As I said earlier, you should either resolve that you're mastering yourself and not send your album away to be mastered again, or resolve to let the mastering engineer do his job and not try to master it yourself before having it mastered by him. To do both is not only a waste of time but harmful to your music as you have just proven.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by wado1942

I guess can understand that sentiment, but what I'm saying is if you had NOT put the L3 on the mix, then the master sound much cleaner. Translucent process + another translucent process = opaque. Though your logic is invalid. Saying "even though it's crushed, you can't hear it, therefore it isn't crushed" doesn't work. Regardless, you can at least somewhat hear the effects of the L3 otherwise you wouldn't use it. That L3 is compounded with whatever limiter the mastering engineer is using and thus destroys the transparancy of both limiters. As I said earlier, you should either resolve that you're mastering yourself and not send your album away to be mastered again, or resolve to let the mastering engineer do his job and not try to master it yourself before having it mastered by him. To do both is not only a waste of time but harmful to your music as you have just proven.

bascally i do master myself..up to a point..i like to have my stuff eq'd slightly esp bottom end as i use nearfields and i like some phse induced "widening" of the mix..other than that i feel better getting a mastered "level" myself..it ain't lathe magic

[wado1942]

Well then, that decides it. Don't send already mastered material to a mastering engineer because the extra processing will only stand to add distortion.