Maintaining the punchiness of drums

[miro]

i would also like to hear before/after examples using this DSM!

[doug hazelrigg]

Originally Posted by bonne

The DSM was ported to VST for PC and Mac recently. Will work fine on your setup if you have an iLok key.

JB

I see that. I DO have an iLok dongle. Maybe I'll try it.

But I use the UAD Precision Maximizer, which my gut tells me works in a similar way

[Table Of Tone]

I've been checking out the VST version of the DSM as there were issues with the AU version.
My opinion so far is that is indeed very different to any other native (comp/limiter) plugin that I've tried.

I actually don't really have a problem with the sound on this one!

Still trying it on the back end of several different ADC's just to see how it behaves.
So far I've tried it with a Prism AD2, a Prism Orpheus, a Lavry AD122, the old Apogee purple and even going straight into the Lynx L22 (aurora) converters.

Still doing extensive listening tests (when I have time) so I'll keep you posted.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

I've been checking out the VST version of the DSM as there were issues with the AU version.
My opinion so far is that is indeed very different to any other native (comp/limiter) plugin that I've tried.

I actually don't really have a problem with the sound on this one!

Still trying it on the back end of several different ADC's just to see how it behaves.
So far I've tried it with a Prism AD2, a Prism Orpheus, a Lavry AD122, the old Apogee purple and even going straight into the Lynx L22 (aurora) converters.

Still doing extensive listening tests (when I have time) so I'll keep you posted.

Glad to hear you have got it working (at least I am assuming it is). :-)

We have in fact updated the AU version installer to fix the delay compensation issue others had reported and kindly helped us to track down.

We are still unable to find the major errors you reported in previous posts on GS. So would you be kind enough to run up the AU version, tell us if it works now - and help us to fix it, if it still produces issues. I would really appreciate this :-)

Many thanks :-)

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

Glad to hear you have got it working (at least I am assuming it is). :-)

We have in fact updated the AU version installer to fix the delay compensation issue others had reported and kindly helped us to track down.

We are still unable to find the major errors you reported in previous posts on GS. So would you be kind enough to run up the AU version, tell us if it works now - and help us to fix it, if it still produces issues. I would really appreciate this :-)

Many thanks :-)

I've been unable to get logic to load the AU version since I took it off, after the clipping issues.
It sees in in the plugin list but won't open it anymore.

I wouldn't normally be using logic for the capture side of things anyway, so if the VST version is working on the input of soundBlade, that is where the DSM could be an alternative thing to make up some gain on, after the ADC.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Trell Blaze

5db IS quite a bit of GR. I have yet to hear a comp/limiter that didn't very noticably alter the mix at 5db/GR.

Are you suggesting that the DSM is an exception to this? Can you post some before/after clips on which you've used the plug?

Sorry, I missed this post.....

No not at all - the DSM will certainly change the dynamics of the signal with 5dB of gain reduction - that is quite a lot as I have said. Nothing can lose 5dB of dynamic range and be completely transparent. But of course it's all about how the signal changes - and whether it suits the music you are working with.

All we could honestly claim is that the DSM compression works in a different way from others - and the limiter is definitely novel and different from the processes I designed for Sony and before.

There are some before and after files on our site here:

Pro Audio DSP - Professional Audio Plugins - Audio Units, Pro Tools and VST for Mac and PC

But these may not apply very well to the music you are working with - and they were made using the previous version limiter which applies itself over the whole signal range, the new version of the limiter section does not affect the signal at all below -1dB.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

I've been unable to get logic to load the AU version since I took it off, after the clipping issues.
It sees in in the plugin list but won't open it anymore.

I wouldn't normally be using logic for the capture side of things anyway, so if the VST version is working on the input of soundBlade, that is where the DSM could be an alternative thing to make up some gain on, after the ADC.

Ok something is up for sure :-(

Are you still using the G5, and which revision of logic are you using now?

Have you tried completely uninstalling the old one - and then installing the new one from scratch?

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

Sorry, I missed this post.....

No not at all - the DSM will certainly change the dynamics of the signal with 5dB of gain reduction - that is quite a lot as I have said. Nothing can lose 5dB of dynamic range and be completely transparent. But of course it's all about how the signal changes - and whether it suits the music you are working with.

All we could honestly claim is that the DSM compression works in a different way from others - and the limiter is definitely novel and different from the processes I designed for Sony and before.

There are some before and after files on our site here:

Pro Audio DSP - Professional Audio Plugins - Audio Units, Pro Tools and VST for Mac and PC

But these may not apply very well to the music you are working with - and they were made using the previous version limiter which applies itself over the whole signal range, the new version of the limiter section does not affect the signal at all below -1dB.

Thanks for the info.

BTW, what exactly did you design for Sony? I LOOOOOOVE the Sonnox (EQ/Dyn/Inflator) plugs.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Trell Blaze

Thanks for the info.

BTW, what exactly did you design for Sony? I LOOOOOOVE the Sonnox (EQ/Dyn/Inflator) plugs.

All of the above + the Transmod and Ox Limiter. I was the chief designer for the Sony plug-ins project. It's great that you like those plugs, they were my babies :-) The three of us now running PAD were the complete Sony plugs design team at the point of the redundancies and sell-offs.

Before that I was designer (and originally co-director) of the OXF-R3 console project. I made the EQ, Dynamics and other signal processing in the system (which the initial EQ and Dyn plugs were based on), the ADC/DACs IO system and many other parts of the system, such as the fader control systems. I was also a member of the team of 3 people who conceived and designed the OXF-R3 mixer application, panel and operation.

Before that I was a long term senior designer at SSL during the formative and most popular years. I did loads of stuff, including the entire G-Series channel electronics and designed the IO and other bits for their first digital audio project.

I've been designing professional recording applications since right back in 1970 when we were making very early multi-track tape systems.... I'm an old veteran and been around a long long time - LOL - but please don't let that put you off, I still have lot's of stuff I am itching to make when I can ever get any time away from running this.. :-)

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

Ok something is up for sure :-(

Are you still using the G5, and which revision of logic are you using now?

Have you tried completely uninstalling the old one - and then installing the new one from scratch?

That G5 (Dual core 2.3Ghz, PCIe) has logic pro 8 with the prokit 5.0 update.
Tried installing the new one from scratch, with no joy as yet.

There is obviously something up with either that G5, logic or the AU DSM.
Spent well over two hours that I didn't have, on that setup already!

I'd rather just be using the thing and seeing if it's something I can actually make use of, in the future!

More update on the VST version of the DSM though.
It's a little crashy but once you know how to work around it, it's looking pretty good!

This plugin is "Blade" to all those other snare vampires!

(This is coming from a man that loves his punch and hates his limiters)!

Hey Paul, any chance of a discount?

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

That G5 (Dual core 2.3Ghz, PCIe) has logic pro 8 with the prokit 5.0 update.
Tried installing the new one from scratch, with no joy as yet.

There is obviously something up with either that G5, logic or the AU DSM.
Spent well over two hours that I didn't have, on that setup already!

I'd rather just be using the thing and seeing if it's something I can actually make use of, in the future!

Ok, I understand - this is very odd and annoying as no one else has reported this kind of issue - yet, and there have been no reports of the last issue you had reported either - and of course we haven't been able to reproduce them either. We will look further into it - I promise..

I realise this is frustrating - please bear with us :-)

It's unfair to hijack this tread with yet more DSM related stuff - so I'll communicate from our site.

I'll be on snail-band after today because I have to be away to sort out family issues - and Gmail is much faster than the forums.

[San-to-the-D]

Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg

So I guess the lesson is that compromises have to be made to insure that a tune will translate across a variety of media. Maybe it's time to just back off the pursuit of loudness, maintain the "oomph," and let the listener to crank the volume if he so desires

Exactly it mate, just to carry on from your OP, the new prodigy album invaders must die is a really solid album musically but i dont like the way a lot of the tracks sound whether its the mix or the master or a combo of both - if the drums are compared to songs from Music for the jilted generation made in 94 then the latest offering doesnt stand up at all. Try listening to 'Their Law' up nice and loud, the drum sound on that hits you right between the eyes. I would hate to think Liam Howlett has lost his edge so im blaming the loudness wars for that. Same story with Death Magnetic by Metallica, drums sound lost in the -5dbRMS masters...

[illacov]

I'd have to say you may want to explore hitting some tape at mixdown or via layback at a decent facility. A pretty decent way to attain volume and fullness on a mix without really squashing it is hitting tape. If you want something less tapey, you could try a GP9 equivalent instead of Ampex 456.

As well, if you aren't already, trying using a transformer coupled compressor on your mixbuss but set it so it doesn't actually compress. Instead, use the input and output gain controls to hit the trannies hot enough to boost up the mix but the transformers will saturate and in the process help to increase the apparent loudness of the track.

I have gotten some interesting results from saturation plugins across the mixbuss, to increase the volume without causing any undesirable compression artifacts or messing up the transients.

I tend to compress in parallel on mixes and mix into transformer based stages which then hits tape.

I don't really seek volume in mastering as much as I've always sought some retention of original dynamics or at least a close approximation of it.

I remember looking at the RMS levels on Nikka Costa's album Pebble to a Pearl and the RMS level on one track registered at something like -7 RMS! However the album was all analog tape, recorded, mixed and mastered. Yet it was really really punchy, still needed to be turned up in the car a little but was also exceptionally balanced and full. It didn't sound clipped or messed up.

So maybe you need some tape? Or transformer saturation??

Peace
Illumination

[thermos]

Can DSM do dual mono? (unlinked)?

[csl]

Originally Posted by illacov

I have gotten some interesting results from saturation plugins across the mixbuss, to increase the volume without causing any undesirable compression artifacts or messing up the transients.

I'd agree with this -- if you want loudness, without destroying the shape of percussive transients, then I'd suggest looking into options which can increase the loudness of material gradually, by reducing dynamic range across the whole dynamic range, rather than downward compression (as no matter how soft you'll still have to contend with the peaks). Whether this means using different saturation algos or parallel compression/other forms of upward compression, something that can give you a dB or two before you have to worry about clipping will surely be of benefit.

DSM works well, but it still suffers from the usual compression attack/release side-effects when pushed. It is a compressor after all, albeit one with many bands. I found it great at preserving micro-dynamics with suitably slow attack and release settings, but you then still have to watch for peaks, which I'm guessing is why the limiter was added. Personally, I'd prefer to set an output ceiling myself rather than rely on the -0.01 output level. The limiter works well enough, sounding not unlike a slightly softer clipping.

Voxengo Soniformer works in the same way as DSM, though its GUI is much more cumbersome (though the newer 'knobs' mode helps hugely). DSM's spectrum capture button is a great way to quickly get results without adversely affecting the spectral balance of the material -- Soniformer lacks this, and so makes it more difficult to tweak purely for dynamics rather than spectral adjustments. In this respect DSM is very handy if you simply wish to treat it as a meta-compressor, adjusting many bands with simple controls, whereas Soniformer's probably better suited to careful tweaking and adjustment of the freq balance. They do sound very similar though, so try both.

[csl]

Originally Posted by thermos

Can DSM do dual mono? (unlinked)?

Yes -- there's an unlink option.

[Ben B]

An upwards expander with very fast attack placed just ahead of whatever loudness treatment you're using can help to restore some of the lost punch. Here I sometimes use RenComp, with the ratio control set to somewhere between 0.99-0.95:1, and the attack parameter set as fast as it'll go (or close). When used sparingly, it puts the punch and articulation back into the percussion parts when aggressive loudness processing follows.

-Ben B

[Shy]

Originally Posted by Trell Blaze

5db IS quite a bit of GR. I have yet to hear a comp/limiter that didn't very noticably alter the mix at 5db/GR.

Pendulum Audio PL-2.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Ben B

An upwards expander with very fast attack placed just ahead of whatever loudness treatment you're using can help to restore some of the lost punch. Here I sometimes use RenComp, with the ratio control set to somewhere between 0.99-0.95:1, and the attack parameter set as fast as it'll go (or close). When used sparingly, it puts the punch and articulation back into the percussion parts when aggressive loudness processing follows.

-Ben B

Shhhh. Don't tell. There are people on this forum who won't believe you!

[Ben B]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Shhhh. Don't tell. There are people on this forum who won't believe you!

Really? I didn't realize this was a controversial technique!

BTW, does anyone know if the Waves multiband processors have this capability? Sometimes I like to apply upward expansion to a specific range of frequencies. I realize that I can do this by multing the signal, using filters, etc (and I have done it this way with success). I would rather just have a multiband upward expander at my disposal.

Are there any other non-Waves plug-ins out there that are doing it better?

-Ben B

[XAXAU]

Originally Posted by Ben B

Really? I didn't realize this was a controversial technique!

BTW, does anyone know if the Waves multiband processors have this capability? Sometimes I like to apply upward expansion to a specific range of frequencies. I realize that I can do this by multing the signal, using filters, etc (and I have done it this way with success). I would rather just have a multiband upward expander at my disposal.

Are there any other non-Waves plug-ins out there that are doing it better?

-Ben B

UAD Multiband. The UAD SPL Transient Designer works like you say as well (singleband) and much better than the Sonnox for example.

[Ben B]

Sweet! I was just contemplating getting a UAD-2 card... This might be a good one to try. Thanks!
-Ben B

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by Trell Blaze

DING DING DING DING!! Finally somebody gets it. I'm so sick of "more dynamic" or "low level" being surgically attatched to "good music". Some shit works with no dynamics....some things don't. Do what sounds good...period. If clipping the converters results in a better overall product then why not do it? If mic'ing your drum kit with a radioshack mic helps you express your artistic vision...hey why not? As long as you don't do something "just because...".

A lot of you guys need to get out of that pefect little box you've created...

Funny... I seem to remember saying something similar.....

[cemski]

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

If I was a pizza boy, I wouldn't deliver a ½ cheese veggie pizza to someone who ordered a salami pizza with extra lard and a defibrillator, just because "it is healthier for you".

Wonderfull!