L/R phase inverting in mastering? (S1 shuffler)

[pinky]

I've been noticing lately that after i've recorded a song and mixed it, when I'm in the mastering stage and I use the Waves Shuffler and I invert the phase on one of the channels (L or R) I get a lot more space in my mix (more 3d sounding) but I also get some boomyness which I just drop between 125-500hz on an eq and it takes that boom out. So I really like how it sounds and so does everyone else i show it to.
I've done stuff just with acoustic guitar and vox (at seperate times 1 mic each) so I'm pretty sure its not a phase problem. It also doesn't just sound good on my monitors, it sounds good everywhere on every consumer system its on.

What's going on here? Is it my reverb aux track that I send the tracks to?
I'm mastering ITB obviously, and for these particular sessions I'm talking about I'm putting the mastering plugs on a mix bus and then sending them to the master track.

Could it be that its pre master fader? It doesn't seem to me like that would be it.

I also can't do it with a mix that has very many tracks because it makes some stuff sound weird that I recorded in phase with 2+ mics and have them panned. Unless I invert that tracks phase as well.

Obviously I want that sound but it seems I'm getting it in a way that isn't necessary and I could be getting it more directly and not cause phase problems by switching the phase on the shuffler plugin.

[Darius van H]

Something is very wrong here.

To all but the most cloth-eared, a good mix should sound like ass when you flip one side.

[techguy]

What you're doing does make it sound wider, but that's definitely not how you want to make a mix sound wide. I'd suggest experimenting with a Center/Left/Right channel setup using channel delay or mildly differing EQs. You may not see the problem with Vox and Guitar tracks, but on a more fully orchestrated mix when you invert a channel in a final master your track will sound like total garbage and probably make you a bit dizzy after a while.

EDIT: Also, this is something you're going to want to do during mixing, not during mastering. Your stereo field should be set during mix...mastering may enhance it, but not totally set it.

-- Matt

[pinky]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Something is very wrong here.

To all but the most cloth-eared, a good mix should sound like ass when you flip one side.

This is the exact reason for the post.

So, what delay things should i try to widen my stereo image and give me that full sound?

[Key]

Well instead of using it on the entire mix which will make everything in the center channel appear to come from both speakers at the same time just try using the process on your delays or mono reverbs. A lot of stereo reverbs already have this built in so you would only be converting them to mono.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by pinky

So, what delay things should i try to widen my stereo image and give me that full sound?

As your mixing you should check your mixes and stereo or multi-miced tracks in mono quite a bit. If certain things collapse or get smaller (less low end) you could have phase issues within those tracks.

If this wasn't already considered when the album was being tracked, checking for (relative) phase coherency at the source within the mix will help make the mix wider and give you a fuller sound

[wado1942]

All I'll say is many otherwise good songs have been ruined by screwing with polarity.
YouTube - Wave Motion Interference

[kjg]

Originally Posted by wado1942

All I'll say is many otherwise good songs have been ruined by screwing with polarity.
YouTube - Wave Motion Interference

you mean absolute polarity, right? If I recall correctly 50% of songs have been ruined!

[Jesse Graffam]

HAAS STEREO ENHANCING DELAY PLUGIN | vescoFx.com
there's other plugins that do similar stuff, but none as cheap that I recall.

and i hear good things about this too
VDimension Chorus

also of course there is adjustment & EQ of the side (mid/side) signal... creative reverb or chorus use, etc, etc...

there's probably hundreds of proven ways to widen an individual track depending on what the instrument is and what kind of widening you want

[deve]

Maybe one of your speakers is connected with reversed polarity. When you flip the phase with the plugin it gets corrected and you get your bottom end back? possible?

[deve]

Originally Posted by deve

Maybe one of your speakers is connected with reversed polarity. When you flip the phase with the plugin it gets corrected and you get your bottom end back? possible?

Ah, You said you tried on different systems and sounded better everytime. So my theory goes down the drain. Never mind.

[thefridge]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Something is very wrong here.

To all but the most cloth-eared, a good mix should sound like ass when you flip one side.

Hi all, this is a current , but not identical issue for me- any advice?
On checking the phase of the X/Y configured drum overheads, positioned about 60cm directly above the drummers head, (SM58's,not ideal), there was a huge difference in "position" of one of the OH when out of phase- even when all the other drum mics where sounding in correct phase. The sound seemed to migrate to behind my head, giving a sort of surround type effect. I thought it sounded cool, in a way, as I was trying to widen the stereo field, so I put a phase scope on the drum group to see what it said, sure enough,wider stereo when one OH out of phase, but when all the tracks are up, and the phase scope is last on the master bus, there is no noticable difference on the phasescope, and I am not sure if I can hear any difference in the full mix when a/b the phase of 1 OH.
So, not wanting to "mix with my eyes", I have 2 questions, 1, will this comb filtering?? effect (if it is that) store up unexpected nasties for me later in the mix if I keep it? and 2, how wide should the plot on the phasescope be for drum group, and master bus. At the moment, with both OH in phase, the drums are very mono, ie vertical plot, even with max panning, and its not so different on the master bus. Many thanks, Mick

[Key]

Haha okay I will try to make this simple.

Lets make up a mixing problem. Lets say you are recording an artist and he wants a certain intrument to come out of both speakers at the same time. What do you do? If you put the same exact sound in all the speakers (this is the same for surround sound) it will appear to come from phantom center.

So when you are hard panning mics it is actually beneficial to have a phase difference. Of course this doesn't fold down into mono well at all but who cares?

[thefridge]

Originally Posted by Key

Haha okay I will try to make this simple.

Lets make up a mixing problem. Lets say you are recording an artist and he wants a certain intrument to come out of both speakers at the same time. What do you do? If you put the same exact sound in all the speakers (this is the same for surround sound) it will appear to come from phantom center.

So when you are hard panning mics it is actually beneficial to have a phase difference. Of course this doesn't fold down into mono well at all but who cares?

Do you understand what I was asking, re phasescope? and also can you explain "folding to mono" and when it occurs, how I use it, and why out of phase is good when hard panning, thanks

[pinky]

Originally Posted by Key

Haha okay I will try to make this simple.

Lets make up a mixing problem. Lets say you are recording an artist and he wants a certain intrument to come out of both speakers at the same time. What do you do? If you put the same exact sound in all the speakers (this is the same for surround sound) it will appear to come from phantom center.

So when you are hard panning mics it is actually beneficial to have a phase difference. Of course this doesn't fold down into mono well at all but who cares?

That actually makes a ton of sense

[Key]

Originally Posted by thefridge

Do you understand what I was asking, re phasescope? and also can you explain "folding to mono" and when it occurs, how I use it, and why out of phase is good when hard panning, thanks

Well I guess I saw you getting confused by phase measurements. You said the more in phase the sounds got the more mono they sounded. I was trying to point out why.

The mono fold down thing is just a relic from the days when there was a chance your stereo mixes would get folded down into mono. It seems to be still taught to many mixers to this day that you should "mono check" your mixes. I don't see it as useful and I don't think all mixers understand what they are actually doing to there mixes by making sure things line up in phase. To put it simply If you are grouping everything at the same panning position you might want the sounds in phase but if you are using a stereo mic you will need a phase difference.