L2 Industry Standard

[screentan]

I was interested to know why Waves still refer to the L2 as the industry standard when there is now the L3 and L3-16? The L2 is the only Waves limiter that I don't own or have tried so it keeps making me think maybe I don't have their best limiter when they keep putting that claim out...

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by screentan

I was interested to know why Waves still refer to the L2 as the industry standard when there is now the L3 and L3-16? The L2 is the only Waves limiter that I don't own or have tried so it keeps making me think maybe I don't have their best limiter when they keep putting that claim out...

just forget about it.

Buy Sonnox Limiter or Elephant 3 and be happy

[kjg]

it is not a standard anymore. maybe ten years ago it was? forget about it - you have much better options now.
check out voxengo elephant, flux pure, kjaerhus mpl1 and sonnox limiter and see what works for you. i personally would buy the other three for roughly the price of the sonnox (depending on platform) and be done with it.

[cooker]

I'm not old enough to say there was a standard but today there is no standard the L2 has a very different character compared to the other L series.

[aivoryuk]

if you're only using it for moderate amounts of GR (no more than 3dB) then I think it still holds up. In fact I've been using it a lot just recently over the likes of Xenon and Elephant, the bottom end always sounds more focused then other limits, can be just the ticket

[lerone]

Originally Posted by aivoryuk

The bottom end always sounds more focused then other limits, can be just the ticket

Yeah, for moderate amounts its fine, but the bottom end always sounds less focused & weaker to me, elephant does the same tricks as the l2, only better imo.

[Joe_caithness]

it's all about Elephant really, like the above users said, it does a similar job but with less artefacts.

I've never liked the sound of L2s and the price compared to Limiters like the Elephant make it a very very low choice

[camerondye]

Ozone 4 has the best transparent ITB limiter IMO. I own Voxengo Elephant, all UAD limiters and comps and have tried the Xenon which I think was the closest to Ozone. I consider Ozone 4 to be the standard of ITB Limiter/Dither myself.
cam

[AstralPStudios]

Originally Posted by camerondye

Ozone 4 has the best transparent ITB limiter IMO. I own Voxengo Elephant, all UAD limiters and comps and have tried the Xenon which I think was the closest to Ozone. I consider Ozone 4 to be the standard of ITB Limiter/Dither myself.
cam

I completely agree. I was using L2 for quite some time, then decided to try ozone finally and said to myself "holy cow".

To me there is a big difference in sound between L2 and ozone and ozone keeps more of a natural sound whereas L2 seems to have more roundness and fullness to it, at least to my ears. Makes things more beefy.

There is a question I have about the dither in ozone though. Does that dither automatically go to 16bit or is there a setting I need to change?

[+6/185]

Originally Posted by screentan

I was interested to know why Waves still refer to the L2 as the industry standard when there is now the L3 and L3-16? The L2 is the only Waves limiter that I don't own or have tried so it keeps making me think maybe I don't have their best limiter when they keep putting that claim out...

The L2 (outboard version) is still a very good limiter and I believe it was a standard for many years in pro mastering studios until the more high-end plugs entered the makket. I'm sure the L2 plug works fine providing you keep the GR to not much more than -3 dB. If you are looking for a nice ITB limiter that's under $200 check out Massey's L2007.

[Table Of Tone]

I used to get much more out of the hardware version.
Had two of em!
One of em was better than the other.
I know many people on this forum swear blind that the plug is the same but I found otherwise!

Not the most reliable thing on the planet!

Sold one as it was but on the good one I removed the main filter cap, soldered in a pair of flying leads, chassis mounted a higher quality filter cap and sold it!

Someone's got the only L2 that won't blow up!

[MaTr1x2051]

Originally Posted by +6/185

If you are looking for a nice ITB limiter that's under $200 check out Massey's L2007.

+1 The L2007 is a remarkable plug for only what... $80?

[lord_bunny]

I'm not being rude, but does anyone limit more than 3db in the mastering phase? I just can't bring myself to do it. Maybe on a drum buss, where there's so much transient info that it seems to go a little more unnoticed. I can really hear it after 2db. Maybe I need to try voxengo's limiter.

[camerondye]

Originally Posted by MaTr1x2051

+1 The L2007 is a remarkable plug for only what... $80?

And only for protools, would love to try it...heard great things about him and his products.
cam

Originally Posted by lord_bunny

I'm not being rude, but does anyone limit more than 3db in the mastering phase? I just can't bring myself to do it. Maybe on a drum buss, where there's so much transient info that it seems to go a little more unnoticed. I can really hear it after 2db. Maybe I need to try voxengo's limiter.

You obviously don't have people busting your nuts about getting the levels on their stuff the same as Metallica's last album. And what are you wanting "to hear" in a limiter...I like my mastering limiters to be invisible and just get things louder. On a drum buss might be a different story but I would still use a compressor to get a sound over a limiter IMO.
cam

[+6/185]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

I used to get much more out of the hardware version.
Had two of em!
One of em was better than the other.
I know many people on this forum swear blind that the plug is the same but I found otherwise!

Not the most reliable thing on the planet!

Sold one as it was but on the good one I removed the main filter cap, soldered in a pair of flying leads, chassis mounted a higher quality filter cap and sold it!

Someone's got the only L2 that won't blow up!

Interesting - the L2 outboard version I had also failed so I sent it to them for repair and it came back with what they called an "update" so I assume there are various mods, and or software updating going on.

[+6/185]

Originally Posted by lord_bunny

I'm not being rude, but does anyone limit more than 3db in the mastering phase? I just can't bring myself to do it. Maybe on a drum buss, where there's so much transient info that it seems to go a little more unnoticed. I can really hear it after 2db. Maybe I need to try voxengo's limiter.

This will depend on the material and the clients ("I want it as loud as...) factor. With hip-hop mixes that have intense transients and their need for their track to be LOUD I see as much as -6 dB. I this case I would use two limiters. One before EQ and one after to prevent too many artifacts.

[peter_martin]

Originally Posted by camerondye

Ozone 4 has the best transparent ITB limiter IMO. I own Voxengo Elephant, all UAD limiters and comps and have tried the Xenon which I think was the closest to Ozone. I consider Ozone 4 to be the standard of ITB Limiter/Dither myself.
cam

People do have particular tastes when I comes to these things, but hands down the L3 is pure trash when it comes down to limiters...

I like the Ozone from all the ones I've tried.

[peter_martin]

Originally Posted by lord_bunny

I'm not being rude, but does anyone limit more than 3db in the mastering phase? I just can't bring myself to do it. Maybe on a drum buss, where there's so much transient info that it seems to go a little more unnoticed. I can really hear it after 2db. Maybe I need to try voxengo's limiter.

Exactly my opinion, if people need to do that on any style of music there is something wrong in their mixes. Mr. Katz said its not how loud you make it but how you make it loud. After reading that quote it took me another three years to get a hang on that.

Sorry but when I've juiced some hip hop mixes I've done on an awesome pa mastered at -12 RMS they KILLED 'commercial' mixes/masters that are brutalized to -6 RMS.

Even on the dance music stuff sounds 100% better in a club when it isn't nuked.

[cooker]

Originally Posted by lord_bunny

I'm not being rude, but does anyone limit more than 3db in the mastering phase? I just can't bring myself to do it. Maybe on a drum buss, where there's so much transient info that it seems to go a little more unnoticed. I can really hear it after 2db. Maybe I need to try voxengo's limiter.

Many people limit more or less like that but you're right about your opinion There are other ways to get louder when needed.

[lerone]

prefer elephant to ozone, but they are both ace. On the dither side, schwas got that one in the can.

[camerondye]

Originally Posted by lerone

prefer elephant to ozone, but they are both ace. On the dither side, schwas got that one in the can.

I have to say I've never tried the Schwa dither so that's new and interesting...Ozone's tough to beat but I'm going to try.

As far as Elephant, I love it and bought it and love it for the tailoring the sound and use it for track limiting all the time...amazing for track limiting...as little as I use it for that. I just think Ozone 4 is more transparent than the Elephant...as you said both are great products though.
cam

[lerone]

Originally Posted by camerondye

I have to say I've never tried the Schwa dither so that's new and interesting...Ozone's tough to beat but I'm going to try.

As far as Elephant, I love it and bought it and love it for the tailoring the sound and use it for track limiting all the time...amazing for track limiting...as little as I use it for that. I just think Ozone 4 is more transparent than the Elephant...as you said both are great products though.
cam

Wouldn't use anything else now. Its about as good as bit reduction can get!

[kjg]

Originally Posted by lerone

On the dither side, schwas got that one in the can.

+1
the red is very 'empty' though. green is better for aggressive stuff most of the time, a tad softer. red is very transparent.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by screentan

I was interested to know why Waves still refer to the L2 as the industry standard....

The L2 Hardware is still the baseline by which all the newer software limiters are measured. Although it's getting a bit long in the tooth (what, 10 year now?), you might be suprised by how many MEs still use it for 1dB of limiting, in ARC mode, with 0.3dB ceiling : - )

For software, I like the PSP Xenon, despite it's many fiddly parameters.

Man... this java is tasty! - JT

[loji]

The thing about the L2 hardware (and why it was used so often in so many houses) is that the IDR algo and noise shaping is able to be used again downstream. It's made so the dither noise doesn't keep 'adding up'
so in broadcast for instance, there can be a L2 in the remote truck, and another L2 in the control studio, and as long as it's set to T1, and normal shaping .. you won't get nasty dither noise building and building and building. . . same thing for tracking, mixing, mastering ... there's potential for alot process stacking.

I haven't scoped it to really see how true that is. but that is one of the features stated in the manual, and it gives the correct settings to achieve this.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by cooker

Many people limit more or less like that but you're right about your opinion There are other ways to get louder when needed.

yeah clipping..clipping converters is whats ruined mastering...you guys seem to think it's some kind of great tool for loudness...it's the biggest cop out in the history of recorded music...is ANYONE mastering without clipping anymore...I don't think so.

[lerone]

Originally Posted by glissando

yeah clipping..clipping converters is whats ruined mastering...you guys seem to think it's some kind of great tool for loudness...it's the biggest cop out in the history of recorded music...is ANYONE mastering without clipping anymore...I don't think so.

Yes when possible i avoid it.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by lerone

Yes when possible i avoid it.

You know something...not to be disrespectful, but what kind of a response is that? what does when possible mean? I'd hoped that there'd be a camp that absolutely refuses to master with clipping...you know why...because it's cheap (I know expensive converters do it better)...it's a cheap way to get your work done boys and it sounds bad...it really does...just like the L2

also "I only use it for 3dB reduction"....do you think we are stupid?...everything is brickwalled with no daylight to be found on the files...3dB of reduction? I use more than that on a drum buss

yes I'm in a bit of a foul mood right now, but honestly boys there's so much bullshit...just admit it. You clip your converters because it's the easiest way to get volume and then you use your favourite brickwaller (or three) on top of that

and you wonder why there are a million threads about the shitty sound of music today.


Sorry if this is a bit over the top...I know there are great Mastering guys in here (and I'm honestly in awe of their work)...there's just too much pussyfooting around

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by glissando

yeah clipping..clipping converters is whats ruined mastering...you guys seem to think it's some kind of great tool for loudness...it's the biggest cop out in the history of recorded music...is ANYONE mastering without clipping anymore...I don't think so.

Personally, I'll purposely clip maybe 1 out of 50 projects (at client's request) and still can get the albums where they need to go with out doing it. I think this is also what Lerone means (at the client's request - when space is no longer the final frontier)

I think you are making a miss-informed generalization based on internet chatter (forums - especially this one) and the same high profile albums that keep getting mentioned over and over, but I hear you, and it this can be a valid point, but not to the extent that people on this forum in particular make it.

We all know that clipping can sound like shit and that brick wall limiting can sound narly and cave in on itself when over dosed, so that a side, it is probably the ME's who make the stuff sound great and get it as loud as needed, gracefully, that are the ones considered to be good at what they do. Not the hacks.

Most of the time, if it's high profile albums you are referring to, the ME is just giving the client what they ask for in the lessor of two evils.

[scraggs]

Originally Posted by glissando

You know something...not to be disrespectful, but what kind of a response is that? what does when possible mean? I'd hoped that there'd be a camp that absolutely refuses to master with clipping...you know why...because it's cheap (I know expensive converters do it better)...it's a cheap way to get your work done boys and it sounds bad...it really does...just like the L2

also "I only use it for 3dB reduction"....do you think we are stupid?...everything is brickwalled with no daylight to be found on the files...3dB of reduction? I use more than that on a drum buss

yes I'm in a bit of a foul mood right now, but honestly boys there's so much bullshit...just admit it. You clip your converters because it's the easiest way to get volume and then you use your favourite brickwaller (or three) on top of that

and you wonder why there are a million threads about the shitty sound of music today.


Sorry if this is a bit over the top...I know there are great Mastering guys in here (and I'm honestly in awe of their work)...there's just too much pussyfooting around

so, you start by saying "not to be disrespectful" and then you refer to everyone else, repeatedly, as "boys".

try again.

before you start taking shots at everyone else for cutting records too loud, maybe stop for a second and consider that they were doing it BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE CLIENT WANTED. it sucks, and it bums me and everyone else out when we cut a nice sounding master and hear "sounds great! just make it 3db louder." but what are you going to do? it's their record, not yours or mine or bob ludwig's.