For Bob Katz & other Top ME's / Plug-Ins that compete with Weiss EQ1-Dyn-LP

[so serious]

Now that the lines have been blurred and mastering tools for the most part a matter of preference, I would like to ask some of the top mastering engineers to offer opinions on plugs that they think are truly competitive (or not) with the weiss series for EQ & Dynamics chores.

Thanks

[lerone]

Originally Posted by so serious

Now that the lines have been blurred and mastering tools for the most part a matter of preference, I would like to ask some of the top mastering engineers to offer opinions on plugs that they think are truly competitive (or not) with the weiss series for EQ & Dynamics chores.

Thanks

You could do a search, I'm sure that would yield results. MAybe type something along the lines of "Algorithmix Red review" "Algorithmix vs Weiss" or maybe, "Best software LP EQ", "Best Software Compression".

Many software companies offer something called a 'demo' too.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by so serious

Now that the lines have been blurred and mastering tools for the most part a matter of preference, I would like to ask some of the top mastering engineers to offer opinions on plugs that they think are truly competitive (or not) with the weiss series for EQ & Dynamics chores.

Thanks

One great thing about Weiss products are their ergonomics. In many ways they are easier to use than many analog pieces of gear. The touch sensitive controls are the bees knees. To be honest, I'm waiting until the Weiss gets time constant adjustment added to the dyn eq before I buy one again. I had the unit and I felt that its fixed time constants were too limiting to me, I like to fiddle with attack, release, ratio, etc. and these controls are not available to the user (yet).

As far as plugins go, you should look at the TC Electronics Powercore dynamic EQ. I personally cannot get my brain around the ergonomics or GUI of this thing, but I haven't really tried much, because the Powercore is in Studio B for mixing and I haven't got it installed in the mastering room. But I can attest to the purity of tone and transparency of the TC powercore "stuff" and it's well worth a gander.

Remember that a dynamic EQ is really a multiband compressor set "on its side". So you can use a single band or multiband dynamics processor as a form of dynamic equalizer. And much of the use that I would put a dynamic EQ to can be done in a dynamics processor, including high level sibilance reduction or bass taming, for example. Or with parallel compression, low level ambience coloring, or low level enhancement and clarification. It's just how you look at the device. Remember that under the hood a dynamic equalizer is one band of a multiband compressor (or expander).

Another device to look at is the Waves C4, but I found its time constants to not work for me. Your mileage may vary.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by bob katz

To be honest, I'm waiting until the Weiss gets time constant adjustment added to the dyn eq before I buy one again. I had the unit and I felt that its fixed time constants were too limiting to me, I like to fiddle with attack, release, ratio, etc. and these controls are not available to the user (yet).

I've never used the Weiss dyn eq. Is it anything like Voxengo Gliss EQ [1]? I mean in the sense that the time constants are instantaneous? (0 attack, 0 release). Time wise, the EQ just tracks the signal coming in.
I suppose having control of the time constants could be interesting.

Personally I would grab Voxengo Soniformer[2] to do that. Soniformer is a vastly (phase linear) multi-band dynamics tool that comes with full control of attack/release/ratio/level/parallel mix/etc over the whole frequency band (with M/S options). The nuclear powered Swiss army knife of frequency and dynamics manipulation. Dangerously powerful!

Remember that a dynamic EQ is really a multiband compressor set "on its side". So you can use a single band or multiband dynamics processor as a form of dynamic equalizer.

... <snipped for brevity> ...

Remember that under the hood a dynamic equalizer is one band of a multiband compressor (or expander).

I find this comment confusing and misleading. It might be the case for the Weiss dyn eq but it isn't the case for all dynamic EQ. For instance the Voxengo Gliss EQ works like a regular EQ (with peaking, shelving, Peaking-Z, etc options) that react in a dynamic manner to the material with instantaneous attack and release. It sounds different to multi-band dynamics treatment like the Waves C4 or LinMB which affect entire bands, have no Q settings and do not have instantaneous time constants.

Another device to look at is the Waves C4, but I found its time constants to not work for me. Your mileage may vary.

I would stay away from Waves C4 for mastering unless one doesn't mind massive phase shifts all over the frequency spectrum. (180 degree shifts at every cross-overs).

Alistair

[1] Dynamic equalizer plugin with spectrums - GlissEQ - Voxengo
[2] Spectral audio mastering compressor plugin - Soniformer - Voxengo

[Cellotron]

The Sonoris EQ2 and Linear Phase EQ2 are certainly some of the finest digital eq's out there and to my ear are the equal to the Algorithmix offerings for a lot less cash and with better gui's - Eq Bundle - Sonoris Audio Engineering

For dynamic chores, with the exception of brickwall peak limiting, nothing digital has given to my ear as satisfying end results than analog compressors. For me a side chain targeted analog broad band comp very often does a much better job at controlling specific frequency area that pokes out of a mix while still keeping the mix's integrity together way better than digital multiband comps do.

The Waves C4 can work ok for surgical use to deal with extremely bad mixes but I think there are definitely better other choices out there now for digital multiband comps as it tends to cloudd and veil anything you put into it. I'd look at the Sonoris Multiband comp (unfortunately only available as a SAW native plugin right now) or the dbx Quantum (whose downside is a horrible user interface) instead first.

As always - ymmv!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[so serious]

Originally Posted by bob katz

One great thing about Weiss products are their ergonomics. In many ways they are easier to use than many analog pieces of gear. The touch sensitive controls are the bees knees. To be honest, I'm waiting until the Weiss gets time constant adjustment added to the dyn eq before I buy one again. I had the unit and I felt that its fixed time constants were too limiting to me, I like to fiddle with attack, release, ratio, etc. and these controls are not available to the user (yet).

As far as plugins go, you should look at the TC Electronics Powercore dynamic EQ. I personally cannot get my brain around the ergonomics or GUI of this thing, but I haven't really tried much, because the Powercore is in Studio B for mixing and I haven't got it installed in the mastering room. But I can attest to the purity of tone and transparency of the TC powercore "stuff" and it's well worth a gander.

Remember that a dynamic EQ is really a multiband compressor set "on its side". So you can use a single band or multiband dynamics processor as a form of dynamic equalizer. And much of the use that I would put a dynamic EQ to can be done in a dynamics processor, including high level sibilance reduction or bass taming, for example. Or with parallel compression, low level ambience coloring, or low level enhancement and clarification. It's just how you look at the device. Remember that under the hood a dynamic equalizer is one band of a multiband compressor (or expander).

Another device to look at is the Waves C4, but I found its time constants to not work for me. Your mileage may vary.

Thanks for the Info .

[so serious]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

The Sonoris EQ2 and Linear Phase EQ2 are certainly some of the finest digital eq's out there and to my ear are the equal to the Algorithmix offerings for a lot less cash and with better gui's - Eq Bundle - Sonoris Audio Engineering

For dynamic chores, with the exception of brickwall peak limiting, nothing digital has given to my ear as satisfying end results than analog compressors. For me a side chain targeted analog broad band comp very often does a much better job at controlling specific frequency area that pokes out of a mix while still keeping the mix's integrity together way better than digital multiband comps do.

The Waves C4 can work ok for surgical use to deal with extremely bad mixes but I think there are definitely better other choices out there now for digital multiband comps as it tends to cloudd and veil anything you put into it. I'd look at the Sonoris Multiband comp (unfortunately only available as a SAW native plugin right now) or the dbx Quantum (whose downside is a horrible user interface) instead first.

As always - ymmv!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Good Info-Thanks

[lerone]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Personally I would grab Voxengo Soniformer[2] to do that. Soniformer is a vastly (phase linear) multi-band dynamics tool that comes with full control of attack/release/ratio/level/parallel mix/etc over the whole frequency band (with M/S options). The nuclear powered Swiss army knife of frequency and dynamics manipulation. Dangerously powerful!

Yep, +1 on soniformer, it is absolutely lethal. At first the GUI really pranged me out, but after reading the manual it just clicked and makes to be more practical than most. I have seen nothing like it before, and its versatility is out of this world. The 'poly'-band widening / m-s mode is very ingenuitive too. That Aleksey Vaneev bloke really, really knows what he's doing. For cutting vinyl, I should imagine this tool would be very useful if the source is digital.

[alanwes]

Man, once again i don't understand why nobody talks about the DSM from Pro Audio DSP. Go get the demo at Pro Audio DSP - Professional Audio Plugins - Audio Units, Pro Tools and VST for Mac and PC

It's so clean and works so well that you'll forget all other stuff.

It has a genious concept by a genious man, Mr. Paul Frindle.

And the new limiter in 1.3 is incredible.

Seeing is believing, go get the demo.

[TheMarqueeYears]

I bought the TC Powercore 6000 for mastering duties.

MD3, Brickwall Limiter and the Dynamic EQ are so fantastic, any improvement sonically available from other more expenssive tools would definately be beyond my ability to hear a difference.

I will be proud indeed of my abilities to say I have out grown the TC plugins.

TMY

[RScott]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

I would stay away from Waves C4 for mastering unless one doesn't mind massive phase shifts all over the frequency spectrum. (180 degree shifts at every cross-overs).

What about Linear Phase Multiband by Waves? It's been a while since I've used C4 (don't have it in my current situation) so I can't really compare the two directly.

[wildpark]

the delay on linmb kills my workflow

Originally Posted by RScott

What about Linear Phase Multiband by Waves? It's been a while since I've used C4 (don't have it in my current situation) so I can't really compare the two directly.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

I find this comment confusing and misleading. It might be the case for the Weiss dyn eq but it isn't the case for all dynamic EQ. For instance the Voxengo Gliss EQ works like a regular EQ (with peaking, shelving, Peaking-Z, etc options) that react in a dynamic manner to the material with instantaneous attack and release. It sounds different to multi-band dynamics treatment like the Waves C4 or LinMB which affect entire bands, have no Q settings and do not have instantaneous time constants.

I agree I may have confused the issue, but if you are looking for a fairly wide band effect (a dynamic "tone control" if you will) without Q adjustment you can get much (or some) of the effect of a dynamic equalizer in a multiband unit. There is no such thing as an "instantaneous" time constant. Under the hood there's always some attack and release setting going on, even if it is "automatic" it's some setting. The Weiss has fixed attack and release settings.

[4damind]

Afaik there are not many dynamic EQs available.

You can try Sonalksis DQ1 or Voxengo GlissEQ.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by RScott

What about Linear Phase Multiband by Waves?

Originally Posted by wildpark

the delay on linmb kills my workflow

If used sparingly for mastering the pre-delay shouldn't have an effect on your work flow. For mixing, another story.

This one gets trashed a lot on GS, but can be useful when software based MB is needed.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by bob katz

There is no such thing as an "instantaneous" time constant. Under the hood there's always some attack and release setting going on, even if it is "automatic" it's some setting.

You are correct. For some reason I was reading my analyzer wrongly. GlissEQ reacts to transients.

Alistair

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by RScott

What about Linear Phase Multiband by Waves? It's been a while since I've used C4 (don't have it in my current situation) so I can't really compare the two directly.

I use the LinMB constantly in broadcast post work but I haven't felt a need to use in mastering. (Broadcast post is much rougher. Budget and time constraints play a bigger role than maximum sound quality and anyway, you would be hard pressed to hear any plugin induced phase or pre-ringing issues when half the material coming in is a mix of a few out of of phase laveliers).

Alistair

[turtlerock]

Originally Posted by bob katz

There is no such thing as an "instantaneous" time constant. Under the hood there's always some attack and release setting going on, even if it is "automatic" it's some setting. The Weiss has fixed attack and release settings.

while obviously i agree with you bob that the weiss lp/dyn has fixed attack and release settings , what i would add is i find that are very fast , clean and useful
i have yet to find a situation where i thought the dyn eq was the way to go and the preset times were not the right thing . ymmv

what i would like to see on the weiss is the ability to hear the band that is operation just like on the weiss limiter .

and i guess the other thing to add is the dyn eq also has a combination of the normal eq and the dynamic eq , so you can use the wonderful bottom end features of the weiss standard eq as well as the tricky dodads of the dynamic eq in a bunch of combinations .

as i posted elsewhere i thought the weiss lp eq left me wondering what all the extra knobs would /should be used for as i rarely used more then one or two bands .

Daniel handed over to me me the dynamic eq package to try out and overnight the eq became and very powerful and intriguing device.

now when i am mastering i actually hear situations where the dynamic eq is the obvious best goto box , and i wonder if over the years i had let such resonances slide past because fixing them always did more harm then good.
i have never had much sucess with multiband limiters

well i know for sure i am doing less alternate eq / digital edits sections because of the dyn eq which speeds up my day a bit

i have found no plug in that i can adjust with my eyes closed , so the weiss is still way in front of the user interface race

George Massenburg showed me something new he is doing with a GML DYN eq plug for tools a few weeks ago , but i dont believe he has released it just yet.

[DSPaudio]

+ 1 for Paul Frindle's DSM (Pro Audio DSP)

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by RScott

What about Linear Phase Multiband by Waves? It's been a while since I've used C4 (don't have it in my current situation) so I can't really compare the two directly.

it is linear-phase as long as there is no gain reduction in any band, leading to ideal flat response.

But as soon as there is gain reduction in one band, I think there appears some phase shift between the band and the neighbour bands, and this sounds not very pleasing to my ears.


Maybe thats just me

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by HomeProducer

it is linear-phase as long as there is no gain reduction in any band, leading to ideal flat response.

But as soon as there is gain reduction in one band, I think there appears some phase shift between the band and the neighbour bands, and this sounds not very pleasing to my ears.


Maybe thats just me

There is minimal phase shifting (less than 0.5 degrees) when engaged but doing nothing. There is a slightly larger phase shift when you have very different threshold setting on the bands. I am having a hard time getting beyond 3 degrees phase shift (30 dB threshold difference to achieve those 3 degrees).

Alistair

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

There is minimal phase shifting (less than 0.5 degrees) when engaged but doing nothing. There is a slightly larger phase shift when you have very different threshold setting on the bands. I am having a hard time getting beyond 3 degrees phase shift (30 dB threshold difference to achieve those 3 degrees).

Alistair

ok, thank you for this insight. Maybe I was simply wrong.

[Bob Yordan]

Originally Posted by alanwes

Man, once again i don't understand why nobody talks about the DSM from Pro Audio DSP. Go get the demo at Pro Audio DSP - Professional Audio Plugins - Audio Units, Pro Tools and VST for Mac and PC

It's so clean and works so well that you'll forget all other stuff.

It has a genious concept by a genious man, Mr. Paul Frindle.

And the new limiter in 1.3 is incredible.

Seeing is believing, go get the demo.

[weiss2496]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I agree I may have confused the issue, but if you are looking for a fairly wide band effect (a dynamic "tone control" if you will) without Q adjustment you can get much (or some) of the effect of a dynamic equalizer in a multiband unit.

A dynamic EQ is definitively different to a multiband compressor. The dynamic EQ is like an ordinary EQ with an "automated hand" at the boost/cut knob. The multiband compressor has well defined, fairly steep band edges, i.e. it seems the multiband compressor is not that subtle like a dynamic EQ. Agreed, it may depend on how the parameters are set - as always...

Daniel

[macc]

People are talking about Gliss EQ but the real dynamic EQ in the Voxengo range is the masterpiece that is Transmodder. I don't get why more people don't talk about that plugin.

Got-diggy it has all the detection features and dynamic handling you could want. The oooonly thing it needs (Alexey are you reading) is better sounding filters/eq. But when you really need dynamic eq, it is still a very good (and ridiculously cheap) option.

[bonne]

Originally Posted by alanwes

Man, once again i don't understand why nobody talks about the DSM from Pro Audio DSP. Go get the demo at Pro Audio DSP - Professional Audio Plugins - Audio Units, Pro Tools and VST for Mac and PC

It's so clean and works so well that you'll forget all other stuff.

It has a genious concept by a genious man, Mr. Paul Frindle.

And the new limiter in 1.3 is incredible.

Seeing is believing, go get the demo.

Let's change that to hearing is believing, although the DSM also looks very good?

I agree with everything you said about Paul and his latest version (1.3) of the DSM dynamics processor. It allows both frequency and dynamics control in a way I have never experienced before. Now also with VST support for Mac and PC. RTAS support for PC is in the works.

This is cutting edge DSP and has allowed me to retire a few tools that always left me feeling frustrated. What a relief .

[smackmastering]

I'm with Mr. Katz. I personally love the TC Electronics Powercore Dynamic EQ. It's great for dealing with nasty frequency issues in mastering. I used it last night working with a hip hop track with too much bass and a snare hit that was jumping too much. It's very transparent and easy to use. If you guys get a chance, try it out. It's one of the best secret weapons in my mastering arsenal.

[bmanic]

Originally Posted by bonne

Let's change that to hearing is believing, although the DSM also looks very good?

I agree with everything you said about Paul and his latest version (1.3) of the DSM dynamics processor. It allows both frequency and dynamics control in a way I have never experienced before. Now also with VST support for Mac and PC. RTAS support for PC is in the works.

This is cutting edge DSP and has allowed me to retire a few tools that always left me feeling frustrated. What a relief .

Looks like I'm one of the very few who is not so convinced by the DSM (it's not as unique as one would think.. Voxengo Soniformer does kind of the same thing and did it already about 5 years ago).

In short, it sounds harsh. I never got really satisfactory results from it. I always thought it sounded quite harsh, no matter what settings I dialled in. I suspect it has some distortion issues, either created by the way the FFT division is handled (if it is even that.. ) or then the dynamics process itself.

Another issue is the lack of resolution in the low end. It gives the impression of a very small FFT window size which makes it quite useless for targeting any specific problems in the 50 to 300hz area which is, in my opinion, much more common on bad mixes. It's very rare that somebody adds a huge amount of annoying treble (like the video on vimeo suggests). It's much more common to have lack of detail and bad resonance problems in the lows and low-mids.

So, as a counter vote to balance the opinions a bit..

-1

Cheers!
bManic

[Kayo]

I have been saying it for years.. and in a thread a week ago. The TC Dynamic EQ, is one of the only plugs, that I’ve come across, that reminds me of the Weiss sound and band stroke. Weiss aficionados, should give it whirl for sure..

Ciao,
KAyo

[bonne]

Originally Posted by bmanic

Looks like I'm one of the very few who is not so convinced by the DSM (it's not as unique as one would think.. Voxengo Soniformer does kind of the same thing and did it already about 5 years ago).

In short, it sounds harsh. I never got really satisfactory results from it. I always thought it sounded quite harsh, no matter what settings I dialled in. I suspect it has some distortion issues, either created by the way the FFT division is handled (if it is even that.. ) or then the dynamics process itself.

Another issue is the lack of resolution in the low end. It gives the impression of a very small FFT window size which makes it quite useless for targeting any specific problems in the 50 to 300hz area which is, in my opinion, much more common on bad mixes. It's very rare that somebody adds a huge amount of annoying treble (like the video on vimeo suggests). It's much more common to have lack of detail and bad resonance problems in the lows and low-mids.

So, as a counter vote to balance the opinions a bit..

-1

Cheers!
bManic

I have no experience with the Voxengo Soniformer, so don't know if it did something similar to the DSM 5 years ago. I doubt it though. Please educate me!

No DSM harshness on my system. Would you care to elaborate on the distortions you hear?

When needing to do radical surgery in the lows/lowmids I combine the DSM with other processors. A need trick is to put these processors before the DSM (eg. surgical EQ's), do a DSM capture when you are satisfied with your low end. Then switch off the other processors and let the DSM make up what you did. Works a treat.

You can then finetune by using the DSM parameters, setting your threshhold, ratio and timing values to control the degree of DSM action and lessen the phase-problems etc. caused by those other processors. Very nice!

Cheers

JB