For Bob Katz & other Top ME's / Plug-Ins that compete with Weiss EQ1-Dyn-LP

[Jake57]

Greetings,

I'd love to hear people's opinions on the new Algorithmix LP SplitComp. To me its truly a leap forward in plug-in compressor sound. Over the past day or so I've listened to the demo side-by-side with the MD3, PSP MasterComp (in FAT mode), Waves Renaissance, Magix Am-munition, Sonnox Oxford Dynamics, and a couple of others. The LP SplitComp sounds better to my ears than all of them... More transparent, seemingly lower noise, and more spacious. The others seem a tad flat in comparison. Its hard to describe. I was able to get Am-munition the closest to sounding like a SplitComp, but it couldn't quite match it. I don't have a Weiss... I'd be curious to know how this new plug-in compares. I didn't try the Waves C-4.

Finally, a great sounding compressor plug-in! Its pricey, yes, but it seems like a lot of R&D and many hours of trial and error went into it. The sound quality is worth the price. I'm selling a mic so I can buy it

Best,

Bill

[bob katz]

I agree it's a very transparent and powerful comp as would be expected from Algorithmix. I've recommend to Christoph some attack/release and other improvements and he promises to include them in the next update.

BK

Originally Posted by Jake57

Greetings,

I'd love to hear people's opinions on the new Algorithmix LP SplitComp. To me its truly a leap forward in plug-in compressor sound. Over the past day or so I've listened to the demo side-by-side with the MD3, PSP MasterComp (in FAT mode), Waves Renaissance, Magix Am-munition, Sonnox Oxford Dynamics, and a couple of others. The LP SplitComp sounds better to my ears than all of them... More transparent, seemingly lower noise, and more spacious. The others seem a tad flat in comparison. Its hard to describe. I was able to get Am-munition the closest to sounding like a SplitComp, but it couldn't quite match it. I don't have a Weiss... I'd be curious to know how this new plug-in compares. I didn't try the Waves C-4.

Finally, a great sounding compressor plug-in! Its pricey, yes, but it seems like a lot of R&D and many hours of trial and error went into it. The sound quality is worth the price. I'm selling a mic so I can buy it

Best,

Bill

[Jake57]

Thanks Bob for offering suggested improvements.

And thank you in general for all your efforts to improve audio sound quality, which has really deteriorated in the past 10 or 20 years. And we wonder why people don't want to pay for it anymore.

[Dr Gruv]

Originally Posted by bonne

I have no experience with the Voxengo Soniformer, so don't know if it did something similar to the DSM 5 years ago. I doubt it though. Please educate me!

No DSM harshness on my system. Would you care to elaborate on the distortions you hear?

When needing to do radical surgery in the lows/lowmids I combine the DSM with other processors. A need trick is to put these processors before the DSM (eg. surgical EQ's), do a DSM capture when you are satisfied with your low end. Then switch off the other processors and let the DSM make up what you did. Works a treat.

You can then finetune by using the DSM parameters, setting your threshhold, ratio and timing values to control the degree of DSM action and lessen the phase-problems etc. caused by those other processors. Very nice!

Cheers

JB

thanx for sharing - that is one of those 'gold nuggets' of info to remember

[Kayo]

Originally Posted by Jake57

The LP SplitComp sounds better to my ears than all of them...

Best,

Bill

Better than the MD3!!? really?
This, I have to hear....

KAyo

[Jake57]

I think it's better than the MD3. I'm just talking about the compressor. The MD3's Brickwall Limiter is still my fave - I'm going to keep using that. The Brickwall sounds great after the SplitComp. Music through the MD3 compressor sounds a little bit flat, card-boardy, and grainy in comparison to the SplitComp. The SplitComp seems to have more spaciousness and be more transparent... In other words, the music sounds nearer and more intimate, with less "in the way". I don't know how to explain it. It just sounds better. I thought the MD3 was one of the best plug-ins, although I was never really happy with the sound compared to mastering I've heard with the Weiss or other comparable gear. Unfortunately, I can't afford a Weiss. The SplitComp may be the next best thing.

[Jake57]

Originally Posted by bob katz

As far as plugins go, you should look at the TC Electronics Powercore dynamic EQ. I personally cannot get my brain around the ergonomics or GUI of this thing, but I haven't really tried much, because the Powercore is in Studio B for mixing and I haven't got it installed in the mastering room. But I can attest to the purity of tone and transparency of the TC powercore "stuff" and it's well worth a gander.

Thanks Bob! I've never used the dynamic EQ. I'll need to check it out.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by Jake57

Greetings,

PSP MasterComp (in FAT mode)

The MasterComp has a phase shift in FAT mode. It sounds more transparent to my ears without the FAT mode enabled.

Alistair

[bmanic]

Originally Posted by bonne

I have no experience with the Voxengo Soniformer, so don't know if it did something similar to the DSM 5 years ago. I doubt it though. Please educate me!

No DSM harshness on my system. Would you care to elaborate on the distortions you hear?

When needing to do radical surgery in the lows/lowmids I combine the DSM with other processors. A need trick is to put these processors before the DSM (eg. surgical EQ's), do a DSM capture when you are satisfied with your low end. Then switch off the other processors and let the DSM make up what you did. Works a treat.

You can then finetune by using the DSM parameters, setting your threshhold, ratio and timing values to control the degree of DSM action and lessen the phase-problems etc. caused by those other processors. Very nice!

Cheers

JB

I know how to operate the DSM, it's not very hard to use. My issue, like I said earlier, is with the sound quality itself. I find that everything I use the plugin on, which in my case is full program material, starts sounding a bit harsh even with minimal treatment.

I'm not using nor pushing the built in limiter at all, I'm simply using the compression at very modest ratios.

I'm not sure how to describe the distortion other than "fatiguing" and subtle. I'm not talking about real in-your-face obvious saturation. It sounds more like subtle aliasing or something, not sure but it brings forward the nasty 3-5kHz range that most humans are very sensitive to. It sounds like the compressor section produces some distortion like when you run a too fast attack and release on stuff, except I kept both attack and release at ridiculously slow values.

Voxengo Soniformer is not either without some sonic issues. There is a subtle change in tonality and transient information (for the worse) when it is inserted on a track.

Actually, come to think of it, I have not heard any split band process ever that sounds transparent. They all seem to suffer from various problems and are thus used as rescue tools in worst case scenarios.

I do like the concept of the DSM but the execution of it is a bit wasted due to the "limited resolution". Like I said in the earlier post, how often do you get crappy mixes that have more problems with the highs than the lows/low mids?

Cheers!
bManic

[bmanic]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

The MasterComp has a phase shift in FAT mode. It sounds more transparent to my ears without the FAT mode enabled.

Alistair

FAT mode means oversampling and the phase shift happens due to PSP's implementation of said oversampling.

Cheers!
bManic

[bonne]

Originally Posted by bmanic

I'm not sure how to describe the distortion other than "fatiguing" and subtle. I'm not talking about real in-your-face obvious saturation. It sounds more like subtle aliasing or something, not sure but it brings forward the nasty 3-5kHz range that most humans are very sensitive to. It sounds like the compressor section produces some distortion like when you run a too fast attack and release on stuff, except I kept both attack and release at ridiculously slow values.

...

Actually, come to think of it, I have not heard any split band process ever that sounds transparent. They all seem to suffer from various problems and are thus used as rescue tools in worst case scenarios.

I do like the concept of the DSM but the execution of it is a bit wasted due to the "limited resolution". Like I said in the earlier post, how often do you get crappy mixes that have more problems with the highs than the lows/low mids?

Cheers!
bManic

Thanks for that. I do not have the same experience using the DSM. The nasties you desribe are not part of what I hear. Might there be something else at play?

Every sound processor, digital or analog, will have certain issues of course. This is also the case with the DSM, as Paul Frindle has openly admitted. There's no free lunch in sound processing. But the "distortions" that the DSM creates are to my ears very benign and musical. I find it can help cure some of the very things you mention, if used right.

Cheers

JB

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by bmanic

I know how to operate the DSM, it's not very hard to use. My issue, like I said earlier, is with the sound quality itself. I find that everything I use the plugin on, which in my case is full program material, starts sounding a bit harsh even with minimal treatment.

I'm not using nor pushing the built in limiter at all, I'm simply using the compression at very modest ratios.

I'm not sure how to describe the distortion other than "fatiguing" and subtle. I'm not talking about real in-your-face obvious saturation. It sounds more like subtle aliasing or something, not sure but it brings forward the nasty 3-5kHz range that most humans are very sensitive to. It sounds like the compressor section produces some distortion like when you run a too fast attack and release on stuff, except I kept both attack and release at ridiculously slow values.

Voxengo Soniformer is not either without some sonic issues. There is a subtle change in tonality and transient information (for the worse) when it is inserted on a track.

Actually, come to think of it, I have not heard any split band process ever that sounds transparent. They all seem to suffer from various problems and are thus used as rescue tools in worst case scenarios.

I do like the concept of the DSM but the execution of it is a bit wasted due to the "limited resolution". Like I said in the earlier post, how often do you get crappy mixes that have more problems with the highs than the lows/low mids?

Cheers!
bManic

That's my issue with pretty much all plugins I've tried!
It always sounds better when I take it off!

"Subtle aliasing" is a great way to describe it.
It's the same for me using any kind of SRC.
(I use two systems)

That's why I just use an analog signal path and will only use plugins as a last resort.

I'll try the demo of DSM and post my findings also.

[bonne]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

That's my issue with pretty much all plugins I've tried!
It always sounds better when I take it off!

"Subtle aliasing" is a great way to describe it.
It's the same for me using any kind of SRC.
(I use two systems)

That's why I just use an analog signal path and will only use plugins as a last resort.

I'll try the demo of DSM and post my findings also.

To loosely quote Bob Olhsson:

"The right settings on a plugin will beat the wrong settings on the best analog gear every time"

My wording here may be slightly off, but this is roughly what Bob keeps telling us on the boards.
This is also my experience, so when you say: "That's my issue with pretty much all plugins I've tried! It always sounds better when I take it off!" my first thought is pilot error.
If you can't get first class results with the DSM, or any of Paul's other plugins, for that matter, there must be something wobbly going on somewhere.

These are state-of-the-art plugs and if used right can produce high quality results.

Looking forward to read about your demo findings. You will need a little time to get the hang of using the DSM, but if you dig in deep I think you'll be as amazed with the results you can achieve as most other users.

Good luck

JB

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by bonne

To loosely quote Bob Olhsson:

"The right settings on a plugin will beat the wrong settings on the best analog gear every time"

My wording here may be slightly off, but this is roughly what Bob keeps telling us on the boards.
This is also my experience, so when you say: "That's my issue with pretty much all plugins I've tried! It always sounds better when I take it off!" my first thought is pilot error.
If you can't get first class results with the DSM, or any of Paul's other plugins, for that matter, there must be something wobbly going on somewhere.

These are state-of-the-art plugs and if used right can produce high quality results.

Looking forward to read about your demo findings. You will need a little time to get the hang of using the DSM, but if you dig in deep I think you'll be as amazed with the results you can achieve as most other users.

Good luck

JB

With regards to Bob's quote, you can say that about any tools really.
I think he was probably stating that it's the engineer that really makes the difference.

First impressions of DSM is not completely terrible but things are still sounding better to me when I take it off!

I've got it for 20 more days so I'll definitely give it a few more plays.

Maybe different platforms, different DAW's, different computers and different operating systems etc, make them work for some and not for others!

I'm running Audio Units on mac's when I do use plugins.
Maybe that's my problem?

I just don't know!

I am pretty happy with my carefully honed, analog signal path and I can get first class results with that!

[Table Of Tone]

OK, DSM verdict after me putting it through it's paces for quite a few hours!

The AU version of this plugin quite simply does not cut the mustard.
I was hearing some really obvious, nasty distortions!

Ka Ka!

[bonne]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

OK, DSM verdict after me putting it through it's paces for quite a few hours!

The AU version of this plugin quite simply does not cut the mustard.
I was hearing some really obvious, nasty distortions!

Ka Ka!

Oh, sorry to hear that. No such thing on my VST version.

I saw yesterday that there was a problem with the latest AU version:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-p...ml#post4469672

You may wanna get in touch with Paul. I'm sure he'll help you out.

JB

[kjg]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

OK, DSM verdict after me putting it through it's paces for quite a few hours!

The AU version of this plugin quite simply does not cut the mustard.
I was hearing some really obvious, nasty distortions!

Ka Ka!

Did you report this? I have only very good experiences with the VST versions of the plugin up to 1.3 beta for PC and 1.2 for Mac. Surely this is a bug in the 1.3 AU version, and not an issue with the DSM algorithm itself.
No need for any "verdict" in that sense. A bug report would be more appropriate. support at proaudiodsp dot com

regards,
Klaas-Jan Govaart

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

OK, DSM verdict after me putting it through it's paces for quite a few hours!

The AU version of this plugin quite simply does not cut the mustard.
I was hearing some really obvious, nasty distortions!

Ka Ka!

Reading this I worry that something is broken with the DSM on your system?

What form do these nasty distortions take, is it possible for you to post (or send us) some snippets of audio as an example?

We are committed to hunting down each and every issue reported by the users and fixing it as fast as possible. At the moment we are chasing down an issue with delay compensation with the AU version that happens in some circumstances, but this should not be causing distortion as such.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

Reading this I worry that something is broken with the DSM on your system?

What form do these nasty distortions take, is it possible for you to post (or send us) some snippets of audio as an example?

We are committed to hunting down each and every issue reported by the users and fixing it as fast as possible. At the moment we are chasing down an issue with delay compensation with the AU version that happens in some circumstances, but this should not be causing distortion as such.

I was getting "old style" digital clipping when I strapped it across the output bus of a mix.
There were no issues with the actual mix in question.
It was a proven, stellar mix!

This was mainly when I was checking out the limiter on the DSM.

I have Logic 8, among other things, on my playback G5 and that was I mainly tried it on.
I tried changing the buffer size but it made no difference.

As a control, I also checked Ozone 3, Ozone 4, Flux pure comp II, Waves L316, Sonnox Suppressor, PSP Zenon etc, and they just did what they usually do.

I also tried the DSM on input soundBlade on my other G5, after the ADC and it was clipping before my ADC was.
This was not like the "old style" clipping but more like your bog standard, regular digi crunch N' crackle.

To be fair, I've never found any plugin, apart from maybe a meter, that can do anything but damage in this position!
This was also the AU version but I'll maybe try the VST in the same position on the input of sB and see what happens.

Hope this helps

Good luck with it!

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

I was getting "old style" digital clipping when I strapped it across the output bus of a mix.
There were no issues with the actual mix in question.
It was a proven, stellar mix!

This was mainly when I was checking out the limiter on the DSM.

I have Logic 8, among other things, on my playback G5 and that was I mainly tried it on.
I tried changing the buffer size but it made no difference.

As a control, I also checked Ozone 3, Ozone 4, Flux pure comp II, Waves L316, Sonnox Suppressor, PSP Zenon etc, and they just did what they usually do.

I also tried the DSM on input soundBlade on my other G5, after the ADC and it was clipping before my ADC was.
This was not like the "old style" clipping but more like your bog standard, regular digi crunch N' crackle.

To be fair, I've never found any plugin, apart from maybe a meter, that can do anything but damage in this position!
This was also the AU version but I'll maybe try the VST in the same position on the input of sB and see what happens.

Hope this helps

Good luck with it!

No this must be broken without a doubt. It is operating floating point and absolutely cannot clip before the output of an ADC driven directly into it - unless of course you do something crazy like no compression and simply wind up the gain to +24dB and then slam in the limiter!..

Could you tell what exact system and S/W you are using so we can check this out? And could you post (or send us) a few seconds of this behaviour please - along with the set-up you are using, I will be able to tell in moments if it's broken?

Obviously if it's broken we want to know and fix it pronto as we always do with reported faults :-(

You can send this stuff either here or off-list to support@proaudiodsp.com

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

No this must be broken without a doubt. It is operating floating point and absolutely cannot clip before the output of an ADC driven directly into it - unless of course you do something crazy like no compression and simply wind up the gain to +24dB and then slam in the limiter!..

Could you tell what exact system and S/W you are using so we can check this out? And could you post (or send us) a few seconds of this behaviour please - along with the set-up you are using, I will be able to tell in moments if it's broken?

Obviously if it's broken we want to know and fix it pronto as we always do with reported faults :-(

You can send this stuff either here or off-list to support@proaudiodsp.com

I don't have the plugin on either of my G5's anymore but it's pretty easy to describe.
The logic clipping happened about four times in the mix, all on snare peaks and was that really obvious "pop/crack" kind of thing.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

I don't have the plugin on either of my G5's anymore but it's pretty easy to describe.
The logic clipping happened about four times in the mix, all on snare peaks and was that really obvious "pop/crack" kind of thing.

Oh dear - sounds really odd :-(

Would you be prepared to re-install the DSM briefly, run a bit of the offending audio through it and save a few seconds of it for us please? I can extend the demo if it's running out :-)

Apart from this problem you are having, would you actually want to use the DSM if the issue were found and resolved? Are you prepared to help us to do that? At the moment we are unable to recreate this problem.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

Oh dear - sounds really odd :-(

Would you be prepared to re-install the DSM briefly, run a bit of the offending audio through it and save a few seconds of it for us please? I can extend the demo if it's running out :-)

Apart from this problem you are having, would you actually want to use the DSM if the issue were found and resolved? Are you prepared to help us to do that? At the moment we are unable to recreate this problem.

I've got a lot of stuff on to cut over this weekend but I should be able to have another look at it after Tuesday next week.

I think there's plenty demo time left as I only put it on a few days ago.

Even though I very rarely use plugs, I always like to checkout new stuff that's being talked about (this being one of them).

Believe me, I would love to be able to master records with just one puter and some plugs!
Just simply maintaining my current setup can be a massive pain in the ass but nothing can touch it sonically!

I'll be more than happy to help when I get some time.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

I've got a lot of stuff on to cut over this weekend but I should be able to have another look at it after Tuesday next week.

I think there's plenty demo time left as I only put it on a few days ago.

Even though I very rarely use plugs, I always like to checkout new stuff that's being talked about (this being one of them).

Believe me, I would love to be able to master records with just one puter and some plugs!
Just simply maintaining my current setup can be a massive pain in the ass but nothing can touch it sonically!

I'll be more than happy to help when I get some time.

Thanks very much for this - it is deeply appreciated, especially since I realise people are very busy and this stuff takes time :-)

It would be a great relief to get to the bottom of this issue.

Thanks again for your help..

BTW, hopefully no one is trying to claim that the DSM is a one-stop mastering device! That surely would be a dream come true :-)

[Table Of Tone]

OK!
I actually just bought DSM!
I've been trying the VST for the most part.

It's not something I'd use all the time but it's actually pretty good when used to make up a db or two of gain after a Prism AD2 or Lavry AD122.

It does seem to keep the transients coming through quite nicely and it's pretty much the only thing that doesn't actually drop in volume in that position!

[bonne]

Nice move, Table thumbsup

Over time when you get more familiar with using it in different ways you can expect to get even greater results with it. The DSM amazes me every day on different stuff.

JB

[cemski]

hi,
i am testing the dsm and find it very difficult to get usable results in a mastering situation:
1. how do you find a "good" capture in a track? I have problems to get a representative part as blueprint (thats what it does, right?!) for the "spectral-threshold". The good thing of DSM detailed spectrum analysis seems to be also a problem?!
2. Which effect cuts the high frequencies after capturing? meaning high frequencies are more compressed/reduced than the rest/lower band.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by cemski

hi,
i am testing the dsm and find it very difficult to get usable results in a mastering situation:
1. how do you find a "good" capture in a track? I have problems to get a representative part as blueprint (thats what it does, right?!) for the "spectral-threshold". The good thing of DSM detailed spectrum analysis seems to be also a problem?!
2. Which effect cuts the high frequencies after capturing? meaning high frequencies are more compressed/reduced than the rest/lower band.

I'm not really using that part of the DSM, although I'm sure that certain dynamic EQ adjustments can be tweaked on it.

I do ALL of my EQ/comp, etc, in the analog domain (always will) and like to use a different combination of both D to A and A to D converters to suit the particular material I'm working on.

Some AD converters like being hit in different ways to others and that is also strongly dependent on the type of mix in question.
Sometimes I may decide I want to back off the outboard gain a little, when using a certain ADC.
The DSM is great for making up just 1 or 2 db of gain without destroying what I've already set up in analog!

After playing with it for over a week I started getting it to do just that, and really well!

This is coming from a man that does not normally use ANY plugins unless stuff seriously needs that kind of fixing, ie, noise, clipping, statics and certain types of de-essing.

I guess you're just gonna have to play with it some more and use your ears to find out what it does and how it does it!

That's all I did!

[cemski]

Thanks table of tone for insight of your work procedure.
still those questions remain

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by cemski

Thanks table of tone for insight of your work procedure.
still those questions remain

Maybe checkout the manual or flick through the presets and go by whats been visually changed and what your ears are telling you.

I agree that those funtions of the DSM are not that obvious!