My mastering trouble and protools

[Loudyman]

Hello everyone, first post right here on gearslutz and Protools user I need your help:

Do you move to another computer and software when you're mastering your protools mix or use a mastering application (like Bias Peak) inside the same computer with digi interface via the core audio manager ?
What is the difference between:
1) PC/Wavelab/Asio ---->soundcard ---->DAC ---->monitoring
2) MAC/Bias Peak/coreaudio-->Digi 192 I/O -->monitoring
(Software and interface are for example)
Are this config will sound equally and are mastering grade ?

In fact , I would liked to work inside wavelab , but for that ,I have to go on another pc (Wavelab is only pc for the moment).
But my problem is not really here , import protools files in wavelab is easy !
But the struggle begin when I have to set all my gear at the same clock.
1) For recording and mixing :
Preamp>AD>protools>DA>monitoring :
perfect, clocked internally by adda converter, jitter is as low as possible!

2) For mastering , It's my problem! :
pc>wavelab>soundcard>DA (same as above)>monitoring :
Who must be the master clock right here for the lowest jitter possible ?
a) soundcard ?
b) adda converter ?
I guess that's the adda converter but I ask this because I don't own the soundcard yet , and the 2 soundcard that I know to be (I hope) mastering grade are Rme hdsp aes 32 or Lynx aes16 , but both has a reclocking circuit ,that can "destroy" IMHO the clock of the adda converter ?!
I don't want to add jitter at the mastering stage !
It's best to keep the same clock all over the process of recording, mixing, mastering ,no?
Did read Bob Katz book's and Dan Lavry's paper but I'm confused !
How can I do?
I really need help .
Thanks.

[Loudyman]

Thanks for reply,

I'm not sure yet to use a digidesign 192 I/O for recording and mixing , but if so that force myself to do the mastering inside the same mac either with protools or with a mastering application via coreaudio and this interface ....what can be good if the quality via the coreaudio manager equal the one of the dae of protools ? is-it the case ???

Anyway , I will upgrade the 192 I/O with another converter (don't selected one yet) , but the scenario remain the same , either I stay inside the mac or get out in another pc and the trouble of wordclock begin...

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by karyoky****

hi,

if you have pro tools hd, you cannot really get a "better" interface for it than the 192 i/o for tracking, because that is what digidesign has the "input / output" delay compensation coded for [maybe the aurora 16 will work].

most records are recorded using 192 i/o interfaces.

I thought that I could use another one like the apogee ad16 serie or prismsound or mytek ....????

you can buy a third party interface for mastering if you want to [a lot of people do that], but i would still use the 192 i/o for tracking and overdubbing.

But, the clock is different than the one use for tracking and mixing ,am I right ?
So what's happening when you record with one masterclock and mastering with another one ??

i am not sure i understand you, but i think you are asking if the core audio driver is as good as dae. maybe not for pro tools. but you still use your interface as the "master clock" [whatever interface you use].

I ask this for bias peak pro for example which use coreaudio ;
and yes ,the good point is that for tracking , mixing and mastering the clock is the same master clock .....

[masterizer]

Originally Posted by Loudyman

I thought that I could use another one like the apogee ad16 serie or prismsound or mytek ....????



But, the clock is different than the one use for tracking and mixing ,am I right ?
So what's happening when you record with one masterclock and mastering with another one ??



I ask this for bias peak pro for example which use coreaudio ;
and yes ,the good point is that for tracking , mixing and mastering the clock is the same master clock .....

You can use other converters with pro tools, but pro tools works best with digidesign hardware. If you are really serious about mastering then you're going to need a well designed room and lots of money. That being said, there is no reason you can't master using pro tools HD. A great mastering engineer can practically work with almost any professional setup.

I've used many HD setups for tracking and mixing and I have to say I can't find a better digital system. There is still something to be desired with analog tape and a vintage console, but if you use some nice pre's and mic's you can make great recordings that have some nice warmth.

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by karyoky****

hi,

other interfaces do not work as well with pro tools. you can use them, but the delay compensation will not be accurate for recording and overdubbing, and so forth.

there is a feature in the i/o setup windows called "compensate for input / output delays" [one for inputs and one for outputs]. you should leave those boxes checked. but they only work correctly with digidesign interfaces.

I'd like to used a 192 DIGITAL and connect another converter to it....
.....and for delay compensation either do the calculation as the protools guide state for hardware insert or manually move the tracks which are going out to the DA/AD converter .
But for primary ad conversion coming from the outside world (preamp) it will not have any compensation ? and such for the da conversion ? right?

Does the 192 I/O converter compensate just for insert delay or also for the incoming , outgoing world ?

thanks.

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by masterizer

You can use other converters with pro tools, but pro tools works best with digidesign hardware. If you are really serious about mastering then you're going to need a well designed room and lots of money. That being said, there is no reason you can't master using pro tools HD. A great mastering engineer can practically work with almost any professional setup.

I've used many HD setups for tracking and mixing and I have to say I can't find a better digital system. There is still something to be desired with analog tape and a vintage console, but if you use some nice pre's and mic's you can make great recordings that have some nice warmth.

I really hesitate to use a 192 I/O when I see the innumerable post of users who don't like its overall sound and who prefer X or Y converter , finally the only thing true is that I'm lost in the converter's jungle !!!
Is there someone who love his 192 I/O ?

[Tha Govna]

Black Lion Audio | Digidesign 96 io

[Tha Govna]

Originally Posted by karyoky****

hi,

people say they do some good work. i don't know. however, the ak5393 that is on the 96i/o is not the one you want.

you want the ak5394 that comes in the 192i/o. that's their flagship converter. its the same one that weiss uses in the adc2, o.k.?

i believe ed mietner designed [or at least partially designed] the 192i/o.

Yessir. Me bad. I don't know why, but I completely missed that. Geez.

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by karyoky****

hi,

are you using a console or are you working "in the box" and just using one stereo pair as your "mix bus". tell me and i can make a suggestion for you to be able to use your prisms, or whatever, for your mixing or mastering.

Hi,
I must add that I'm building my own studio step by step .....slowly.....and I have to consider the way I will work :I don't have all the gear needed yet ;

So,
I don't have any console and don't plan to use one .
I will use few , but good, preamps ,DI and maybe compressor for the recording stage, then in protools mainly work in the box ....

But , as my studio expand I want to be able to add some hardware reverb devices and sometimes go out for extra analog processing through DA/AD converter for some tracks.

And for mixing , indeed work with a stereo pair as my mix bus to begin and perhaps add a summing box later .

Anyway, many thanks for help!

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by karyoky****

... digidesign makes a version of pro tools that works on a pc. you probably won't get all the functionality, but you'll get inputs and outputs...

You absolutely do get all the functionality!

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

You absolutely do get all the functionality!

I own already one system on MAC (hd3 accel pcie) and don't want another one ....

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by karyoky****

hi,

o.k. here is a suggestion, based on what i think you are telling me.

you should do your tracking and overdubbing with your digiesign 192 i/o, because of the timing / delay compensation advantages we talked about. on top of that, digidesign pro tools notoriously works better with with digidesign hardware, and you don't want to screw with that for some kludge set-up for tracking.

you can very easily use your 192 i/o as the interface for mastering if you don't want to buy a different interface, or can't afford one right away.

you could also buy a super - duper "audiophile" 2 - channel ad-da [or just a da] and use it for your mixing [if you are going to mix your two tracks to some external device like a cd recorder, or dsd recorder, another workstation, or whatever you plan to use. if you have a fast computer, you can run logic right along with pro tools for you mix, and you can route your expensive interface to logic and mix through that.

you can even do the same thing while recording your mix back into pro tools, or bouncing to disk, but you will have to stay at whatever sample rate the session is at.

if you record to a different machine then you can record different versions at different sample rates for whatever purposes you like.

the main thing is, once you have all your tracks recorded, and your overdubs done, then you can switch to whatever audiophile interface you want to use to mix / master through.

use the clock on whatever interface you are actually recording through

In this instance , if I understand it well , the "superior" DA would be attached to the aes/ebu out of the 192 and serve my mix , for monitoring right?
But what about the insert of harware analog devices and protools group "sending" to external summing box and coming back to protools ? still with the 192 ?

As I said before, I would liked to use wavelab for mastering and import the "bounce" or the "mix back" of protools into it and use the same "superior" converter to master through.

Merci.

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by Loudyman

But what about the insert of harware analog devices and protools group "sending" to external summing box and coming back to protools ? still with the 192 ?

After reflection i realize that :

Insert hardware still with 192 for delay compensation etc...
and
Group sending to summing box can be through the "superior" DA/AD since delay compensation do not matter here ! right ?

But for monitoring 192 or another DA ?

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by karyoky****

hi,

are you talking about doing a bounce to disk in pro tools, and then importing that file into wavelab [and then using the "superior converter" for wavelab], or playing your pro tools session through analog outputs and then into the analog inputs of the "superior converter" to record into wavelab?

Importing with a usb key or cd-rom the bounce to disk or the stereo "mix back" files directly into wavelab then monitoring and mastering with the "superior" converter.

i don't think you need to use the digital i/o of the 192 to connect your "superior converter" unless you want to use the superior converter to monitor during your mixing, or to print back to disk [or to whatever].

That's the idea, unless that the 192 is really good for mixing process ?

if you are using hardware inserts and so forth during mixing you should use the digidesign 192 i/o for all that [with delay compensation on, the "compensate for input / output delays" boxes checked, and whatever offset you measure entered into the hardware inserts' dialogue fields for whichever channel pairs you are using for the hardware].

basically, use the 192 i/o for anything at all that has to be aligned phase / sample accurate during your mix. that includes any external audio sources.

leave delay compensation on, obviously.

once you have recorded and overdubbed everything, and you have your midi and hardware and so forth all connected and routed in and out of your session via your digidesign 192 i/o interface [with any necessary offsets entered wherever they need to be entered], then, if you want to listen to the stereo output of your mix [for mixing purposes, or whatever] through your "superior converters", just route your whole mix to 2 digital outputs of the 192 i/o and plug them into your "superior converters".

Yes! see my previous post

there are ton of different configurations, and i am not sure what you are trying to accomplish, so it is a little bit difficult trying to second guess at that.

if you want to use some sort of "summing box", you can come out of the summing box into the "superior converter" and then out of the "superior converter" to wherever you are routing it [back into pro tools via aes, whatever].

"summing boxes" can be a bit of a waste of time.

Alright!

[Loudyman]

So now I have to rebuild my mastering chain :
PC/wavelab > soundcard > ADDA .

Cheers!

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by karyoky****

hi,

alright then. but i should say that you can master just fine with just your pro tools rig, if you want to, or need to. don't that that be an issue for you.

understand that a lot of the guys that only do mastering would buy wavelab or soundblade or whatever rather than pro tools hd, because pro tools hd is much more expensive. they don't need all the stuff that pro tools will do just to do mastering.

you already have pro tools hd, and you could master on that just fine until you get whatever else you want going. logic audio will also work fine for mastering [and its cheap, with a whole bunch of "mastering plugins]. it will run on your apple computer, with your digi interface, until you get your other system built.

take care.

When I bought protools hd , it was just for recording and mixing purpose but I didn't know that third party's converter integration would be an issue with it ;
Anyway , I'm pleased to own it !!

But now concerning Logic audio ? , I don't know ....

I really want to go wavelab's way .....

Now the problem is to find a really good soundcard for my pc and associate it to a mastering converter .

For the converter I have some idea , but none for the soundcard !!!
If you could help ....

Thank you very much karyoky**** for your help !