Mastering made the mix quieter

[imixrecords]

Hello,

What would cause an ME to make a mix quieter then the original main passes? The perceived volume is lower as well as the level on a variety of meters. The Un-mastered passes were not clipping or squared off in any way and there was nice dynamics. The album is about to be out so there is nothing I can do.

I am not entirely mad at it, but I must say the mastered version doesn't have the punch or excitement of the original.

Any Thoughts?

[MASSIVE Master]

A) Who had the responsibility of signing off on the final production master?

B) Why did they sign off on it if there was something substandard?

Volume aside - If it didn't sound right, who OK'd it?

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by imixrecords

I must say the mastered version doesn't have the punch or excitement of the original.

Any Thoughts?

That is a bit strange. You say the mastered version lacks the excitement of the mixes, which would be cause for concern and refund. In my experience mastering should be equal to or an improvement on the sonic quality of mixes and continuity unless it's "opposite day".

[imixrecords]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

A) Who had the responsibility of signing off on the final production master?

B) Why did they sign off on it if there was something substandard?

Volume aside - If it didn't sound right, who OK'd it?

The A&R. I didn't hear it until i bought it.

[imixrecords]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

That is a bit strange. You say the mastered version lacks the excitement of the mixes, which would be cause for concern and refund. In my experience mastering should be equal to or an improvement on the sonic quality of mixes and continuity unless it's "opposite day".

Thank you for your response. I agree! Mastering is usually the "butter" and I am generally not "surprised" when i hear the mastering 99% of the time.

I didn't mix the entire album. Could it have been done to match the levels of the other guys mixes? Maybe it was easier to make mine quieter then make his louder? I have only heard the single, which is out on itunes, so i don't know what the other guys mixes sound like yet.

[William Bowden]

It wasn't a case then of some tracks louder, some quieter?

The King

[imixrecords]

Originally Posted by William Bowden

It wasn't a case then of some tracks louder, some quieter?

The King

Possibly. all my mixes played back (pre mastering) at or around the same level. The other gentleman's mixes are of unknown quality to me as i haven't heard them.

[Virtalahde]

Originally Posted by imixrecords

Could it have been done to match the levels of the other guys mixes? Maybe it was easier to make mine quieter then make his louder?

If there are other people's mixes on the album, it's possible that yours was made lower in volume to match with the others. Maybe the others would've been just bad turned up. Impossible to tell without hearing.

It shouldn't have come back sounding worse though.

[Bob Olhsson]

Some mixes shatter and fall apart if you limit them very much. The result is that the rest of the album needs to be reduced in order for it to make any sense when played all at once. This is not uncommon with compilations. Just make sure that the master stands up to what your mix sounds like when turned down to the same volume.

[imixrecords]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Some mixes shatter and fall apart if you limit them very much. The result is that the rest of the album needs to be reduced in order for it to make any sense when played all at once. This is not uncommon with compilations. Just make sure that the master stands up to what your mix sounds like when turned down to the same volume.

Makes sense. At the same volume, the master lacks a bit of the punch, clarity and excitement of the mix pass. Even the wifey can hear it, although the difference is slight.

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by imixrecords

Makes sense. At the same volume, the master lacks a bit of the punch, clarity and excitement of the mix pass. Even the wifey can hear it, although the difference is slight.

if thas the case then the ME suckz some serious a$$ n' should be demoted!! (to a rank of *teaboy*)..theres no excuse in the book to mess up o change a mix to taht friggin' extent Ya...wat are we mixers?? chopped liver??

[heisleyamor]

Put up a clip of the old mix and new mix.

[ipagel]

i more concerned that you had to buy an album you worked on

[imixrecords]

Originally Posted by heisleyamor

Put up a clip of the old mix and new mix.

I don't think my client would like that very much.

[glissando]

There is one other possibility. Although I like to bitch about mastering, it could be that your songs had to be matched eq wise as well to the other guys mixes. Also maybe your mixes were a little too hyped up top in ME's ears...most likely a matching thing although I find it difficult to believe that the mastered mixes are quiter than your (non limited) mixes. There's something up there...so you pulled both files from their original source put them into PT or Logic or whatever and looked at them and the mastered version isn't more dense looking and slammed to the roof? c'mon

[masterizer]

Originally Posted by imixrecords

Makes sense. At the same volume, the master lacks a bit of the punch, clarity and excitement of the mix pass. Even the wifey can hear it, although the difference is slight.

Who mastered the album? Reducing punch, clarity and excitement could result in a great song/mix being unsuccessful, could even mean the difference between winning a grammy or not. Mastering should enhance what is already there, not take away. When a great mix comes in, you want to give the client a greater master.

Has the artist and their label heard the masters?

[imixrecords]

Originally Posted by glissando

There's something up there...so you pulled both files from their original source put them into PT or Logic or whatever and looked at them and the mastered version isn't more dense looking and slammed to the roof? c'mon

Yes I compared the waveforms. The master is not more dense looking nor is it slammed to the roof. I put each mix on a separate track in Pro Tools to compare. When I level matched the two mixes, I had to pull the unmastered volume down about 7 DB to match the perceived volume of the master.

What is also odd is that the master, although not hitting the roof, has places in the record in which the waveform is flat topped (hedged off), however the waveform of the mix pass does not have any flat tops. The mix pass peaks at about-3 DBFS, everything rounded, no clips.

[imixrecords]

Originally Posted by ipagel

i more concerned that you had to buy an album you worked on

I always buy them! I try to support artists when I can.

[lerone]

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

It shouldn't have come back sounding worse though.

Quite. Unless of course the other mixes were completely and utterly tragic, in which case.........Someone should have had the decency to pick up phone and discuss any issues properly or even better, planned ahead. You should talk to that ME ASAP to find out why. I'd say thats completely "Bannng aaaaat ov owwwdaaa!"

[glissando]

Originally Posted by imixrecords

Yes I compared the waveforms. The master is not more dense looking nor is it slammed to the roof. I put each mix on a separate track in Pro Tools to compare. When I level matched the two mixes, I had to pull the unmastered volume down about 7 DB to match the perceived volume of the master.

What is also odd is that the master, although not hitting the roof, has places in the record in which the waveform is flat topped (hedged off), however the waveform of the mix pass does not have any flat tops. The mix pass peaks at about-3 DBFS, everything rounded, no clips.

I'm not understanding something..I'd have to see the waveforms, but I understand
that you can't do that. Good Luck.

[wado1942]

What is also odd is that the master, although not hitting the roof, has places in the record in which the waveform is flat topped (hedged off), however the waveform of the mix pass does not have any flat tops. The mix pass peaks at about-3 DBFS, everything rounded, no clips.

Sounds to me like somebody made a big mistake. Though I must state, the #1 job of a mastering engineer is helping multiple mixes fit together. If the other mixes were comparitively crappy and couldn't have their levels raised to the level of your mixes, he may have HAD to reduce the level on yours. However, there should never be any clipping on the master if your level is lower. Though you ARE talking about something you got through iTunes so there's no telling what happened between leaving the mastering engineer's hands and you downloading it.

[Waltz Mastering]

Do you have an idea who mastered the album and checked out any of their other work. Is it respectable?

Seriously, if you had to pull the original mix down a full 7 db to match the master level, yet the master is flat topped there is some very questionable work going on.

It might be worth trying to convince or recommend to a&r or whoever in the future to use a ME you trust.

[Ben F]

It sounds like a mistake. Perhaps the master fader was engaged when bouncing and it had pulled the volume down. Does the new master peak at 0dBFS of is the peak at around -7dBFS? It it doesn't peak close to 0dBFS but the wave forms are 'clipped' I would say it's a mistake...sometimes it can even be the record label if they 'rip' the master CD and send it for pressing. I've had that happen a few times.

[Jesse Graffam]

Originally Posted by Ben F

sometimes it can even be the record label if they 'rip' the master CD and send it for pressing. I've had that happen a few times.

Seriously? What a nightmare. And I'm sure they used EAC Secure. Riiiight. ehhee.

Wow tho... what an epic screw-up to rip a master only to burn it again and send it for pressing. If anything what they should do, if they can't bloody trust the mastering engineer (for god knows why they would have them mastering then) then at least.... get the WAV files on a CD or DVD, and send those to the plant. Almost any plant can properly burn WAV files to a CDR for duplication, if they even need to burn them to create the master. It depends on the plant.

[lerone]

So. to the poster, did you find out how this epic boo-boo happened? I'm actually dying to find out!

[Kayo]

Originally Posted by imixrecords

Makes sense. At the same volume, the master lacks a bit of the punch, clarity and excitement of the mix pass. Even the wifey can hear it, although the difference is slight.

Seriously!.. If that's the case.. then, somebody needs to convey that to the mastering house and ask for another pass with the required attributes clearly stated. Frankly, If the mastering engineer is experienced, then, I doubt his intention was to diminish the sound on the master. Ask, why was such a tangent chosen. It is a bit surprising, especially when mastering is supposed to enlarge in a positive and coherent manner.

Keep us posted.

Ciao,
KAyo

[wado1942]

I had a situation where my client gave me a production copy of an album I mastered and it didn't sound like what I did. It sounded like the plant played the CD through analogue lines and rerecorded it. I also had a plant lose a master before they could press copies..... 3 months after the client sends them the disk and hear nothing, they call the plant and get "oh, your disk had errors and couldn't be used". No, my masters do not have errors in them because I check for errors before they leave my studio..... THEY just lost it and wouldn't admit it.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by wado1942

I had a situation where my client gave me a production copy of an album I mastered and it didn't sound like what I did. It sounded like the plant played the CD through analogue lines and rerecorded it. I also had a plant lose a master before they could press copies..... 3 months after the client sends them the disk and hear nothing, they call the plant and get "oh, your disk had errors and couldn't be used". No, my masters do not have errors in them because I check for errors before they leave my studio..... THEY just lost it and wouldn't admit it.

This could definitely be true - but it's important to realize that the Eclipse testing software that most glass mastering facilities use checks for good number of issues (like subcode timings) that things like Plextools can't. Also it's possible that the disc went through structural damage between when it left your studio and when it was tested - or that the client sent in their own copy of the original master instead of your master (both of which were the reasons for the only plant rejections I have had in the past few years).

My suggestion if people get a disc rejected that you know left your studio confirmed via error test as being well in spec is to get the plant to first fax you a copy of the Eclipse test report, and second have them ship you back the disc so you can do your own checking. To me these things help nail down any issues you might possibly be having in your own system (i.e. burners that are starting to come to an end of their life span, media incompatibilities, software issues, etc.) - or just confirm that it was something like the client or plant scratching the disc by accident.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[imixrecords]

Well, The album in question was released today.

Seems like there were three different mixers, including myself, (i only did the single). The "ME" only has one mastering credit to his name according to Allmusic.com and the album in question is that lone credit.

All in all, the album sounds consistent from a mastering standpoint, although consistently mediocre maybe as good as it gets. All the high's seem pretty boosted in comparison to the one original mix pass that i have. Most of the mixes themselves sound a bit dated and unexciting. However there is a handful that are well done.

I suppose I am the only one who knows that there is a more sonically interesting version of the single, so screw it i suppose.

I mixed this artist entire last album and it ended up being his highest charting album to date. Went to #8 on the gospel charts AND the reggae charts for about six weeks. About a year after that, the artists changed management and label and things just didn't seem the same after that.

So as I said, not much that i can do now. Thanks everyone for the comments!

[yeloocproducer]

Ouch. Sorry to hear that!