Mix preferances for MEs

[strewnshank]

Hi Guys,
I'm a mix engineer, and generally have my stuff mastered by one of ya'll. I have a "guy" I work with most of the time, and that's great and all, but I'd like to get a more global perspective on a few issues:

Issue 1:
When a client is going to want to have their rock track competitively loud, do you prefer slightly more kick/snare in the mix? By "more," I mean more than I'd use to just make the mix sound good....I've noticed that sometimes the kick and snare sound perfect in my RMS -18dBfs mix, however, when I get the loud-ass master back, they are sometimes sorta hidden. Is my guy just doing a C- job, or is that just how it goes?

Issue 2:
How "loud" do you want it? I keep it down around -18dBfs....that seems to leave enough headroom, but I just want to make sure.

Thanks Team.
C

[jinksdingo]

If your clients want loud masters, then that's what they want.
I am interested in the answers to your questions too, but I thought I'd add a workaround that I got from this forum and that is to check your mix with a limiter or maximizer to hear what Mastering Loud will swallow in your mix and possible EQ imbalances. It has been good advice.
As for the level of a mix, I've heard some very quiet mixes at my ME's. I think your mark is about right, most MEs seem to like to have something to work with.

[Lagerfeldt]

1) It's hard to avoid some squashing of the transients, including the kick and (especially) snare if you want a really loud master. You could send a snare or kick+snare up mix to your ME and see if that helps a bit.

2) Peak at -6 dBFS in a 24 bit WAV file and I'm happy.

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by jinksdingo

If your clients want loud masters, then that's what they want.
I am interested in the answers to your questions too, but I thought I'd add a workaround that I got from this forum and that is to check your mix with a limiter or maximizer to hear what Mastering Loud will swallow in your mix and possible EQ imbalances. It has been good advice.
As for the level of a mix, I've heard some very quiet mixes at my ME's. I think your mark is about right, most MEs seem to like to have something to work with.

I should note that I mix into a Massey L2007 when I'm 90% finished (nice tip though), and I use it to send referance mixes to clients so that the first line of the email isn't "Hey, sounds great, but can you turn everything up?"

That said, my psuedomasters rarely sound like masters to me, even though they may be close in volume.

[IIIrd]

1.) that comes for free when you make it silly loud,

2.) i'm happy as long as your mix doesnt look like a brick...0dBfs is ok as i work analogue, just don't "loud" it before i get it.

[KyleDiSanto]

I find that Loudness potential does start with a proper mix.

A tonally balanced Mix will allow us to just make minor optimizations, rather than fix things.

If you are worried about the kick and snare...send 2 copies then and talk with your ME. Communication is KEY.


As for the mix, -6dbfs is what I like to get, however, as long as its not clipping...I can work with it.

[StephenMarsh]

extra snare can and has helped in the past, also going easy on the cymbals - they tend to live off on the sides and can really bite you when the level goes to 11. Favor vocals a bit more over guitars than you would usually think for the genre.

Extra kick not as much a problem - most stuff comes in with too much as it is and compressing the piss out of the very bottom end is part of the current 'rock/metal' sound.

Sounds like your levels are fine, be careful with the L7 - it's artifacts can be hard to delineate without a really flat full-range system - same goes with the Inflator - I'm guessing they work in a similar fashion, but that's only guess.

[chironomidae]

I think you should talk to your ME about this. He should be able to tell you what he needs from you to solve the problem. If he can't offer any solutions, then maybe you need a new guy.

[strewnshank]

Thanks for the input, folks!

[kundevelop]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

2) Peak at -6 dBFS in a 24 bit WAV file and I'm happy.

when I finish my mix it sound about at -16 db average rms power with few hot peaks that could reach -1db probably a couple of time in 1 minute of music ( sometimes I use a limiter on master to prevent this occasionally peaks ). am I wrong? should i keep those peaks at -6 dBFS? so the average rms power will go down at around -22db?

I produce electronic music using only cubase, NI reaktor, battery ( only single shot sample, no loops ) and plugs FX ( mainly only SSL EQ and Comp ), so I have no noise problem, no AD conversion at all, pure IBT synthesis. I usually export track at 24bit 44.1khz, but I can export to 96khz too or even 32bit...what do you think, which format should I chose to export it?

thanks in advance.

faust

[masterizer]

Originally Posted by strewnshank

Hi Guys,
I'm a mix engineer, and generally have my stuff mastered by one of ya'll. I have a "guy" I work with most of the time, and that's great and all, but I'd like to get a more global perspective on a few issues:

Issue 1:
When a client is going to want to have their rock track competitively loud, do you prefer slightly more kick/snare in the mix? By "more," I mean more than I'd use to just make the mix sound good....I've noticed that sometimes the kick and snare sound perfect in my RMS -18dBfs mix, however, when I get the loud-ass master back, they are sometimes sorta hidden. Is my guy just doing a C- job, or is that just how it goes?

Issue 2:
How "loud" do you want it? I keep it down around -18dBfs....that seems to leave enough headroom, but I just want to make sure.

Thanks Team.
C

Usually if they want their music "loud" they will ask for it. Ask them what their favorite releases are, if they are listening to the loudest albums out there, they will most likely want their own music to be competitive.

If the mix sounds good before mastering, it should sound at least the same, never worse! There is a point when a mix comes in that sounds amazing and might only need some more level (if desired). You should never never never get back a worse sounding master than your mix! Sounds like he is overlimiting causing the snare and kick to dissappear. More than a db or 2 and great sounding drums are lost.

If you keep the peaks to max -6db then we'll have sufficient headroom. Problems arrise when mixes come in limited, overcompressed, clipped, badly converted ect. We can't undo any of those problems in mastering so thats why we request that you leave us headroom and give us as close to a first generation copy as possible.

As for the kick and snare being louder, just turning them up so that they peak much higher than the rest of the mix won't do it. If you can eq a mix so that the peaks of the snare and kick aren't too much higher than the mix that is a good thing. All the elements are well defined in a good mix!

[Table Of Tone]

I don't know what your ME is using to cut your stuff but with regards to mixing rock so the drums don't suffer if heavy limiting is applied, I think the key is careful use of sidechain compression to make space for them!

This will make the drums not actually as loud as they sound like they are and your ME will be able to get more perceived volume from the mix without flattening things.

You would maybe compress the bass, sidechained to the kick and maybe the toms as well.
Also a little compression on the guitars, sidechained to the kick, snare and toms.
We're not talking about a great deal of compression here.
Just a little!
You'll also be able to push the guitars and bass a little more in the mix and if you get it right, the drums will still be punchy as hell.
The overall mix will have more action and balls.

[strewnshank]

Awesome, thanks folks.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by strewnshank

Hi Guys,
I'm a mix engineer, and generally have my stuff mastered by one of ya'll. I have a "guy" I work with most of the time, and that's great and all, but I'd like to get a more global perspective on a few issues:

Issue 1:
When a client is going to want to have their rock track competitively loud, do you prefer slightly more kick/snare in the mix? By "more," I mean more than I'd use to just make the mix sound good....I've noticed that sometimes the kick and snare sound perfect in my RMS -18dBfs mix, however, when I get the loud-ass master back, they are sometimes sorta hidden. Is my guy just doing a C- job, or is that just how it goes?

Issue 2:
How "loud" do you want it? I keep it down around -18dBfs....that seems to leave enough headroom, but I just want to make sure.

Thanks Team.
C

Dear Strewshank: Thanks for coming to one of the "guys". Anyway, there is no FORMULA on kick/snare or anything else, but for certain if the master comes back sounding worse than the mix (which is exactly what you indicated) then you've gone to the wrong guy, OR he was asked to push the record beyond its "loudness potential" to quote one of us "guys" around here.

As for how "loud" do I want it? I think we both want your mix to sound as good as it can and if you are pushing too far so that the sound is affected in a negative way, then then by definition you've pushed it too far. If you are not using any bus processing (which is my preference) then how far you push the mix on the meters has no influence on its peak to average ratio, but instead it's the individual track processes you use and within your mix the relation you choose between the rhythm elements and the melody elements. I would say the most successful mixes in any genre that I have received have an RMS level somewhere between -20 dBFS and -14 to -12 dBFS and whose peak level is NEVER clipping.

[reggiesears]

Can't Answer Issue 1...But As For Issue 2...Just About Every Mastering Engineer that I know, likes plenty of headroom to work with.

[Cellotron]

If we're talking 24bit files then peak level for received mixes is fairly irrelevant to me (as long as it is even a tiny bit below 0dBFs so there's no clipping, and as long as the level isn't really incredibly low - i.e. peaking below -30dBFs) as l'll just attenuate any received mixes as needed prior to sending them to the process chain.

What is much more important to me is making sure that no digital gain stages (i.e. channel faders, output faders, plugins) if you are mixing in the box are getting clipped by going in the "red" - and making sure that no brickwall peak limiters are used on the 2-bus. I've received mixes in the past that were peaking at -6dBFs to allow some "headroom" that were in fact totally clipped and crushed due to these issues!

If you're looking more "maximum loudness potential" I find dryer mixes, spare arrangements, lots of punch and snap, and with kick, snare and vox slightly forward, can sometimes help to increase this. However I generally think people should mix to what sounds good to them and not try and second guess what additional mastering processing will do.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Dear Strewshank: Thanks for coming to one of the "guys". Anyway, there is no FORMULA on kick/snare or anything else, but for certain if the master comes back sounding worse than the mix (which is exactly what you indicated) then you've gone to the wrong guy, OR he was asked to push the record beyond its "loudness potential" to quote one of us "guys" around here.

As for how "loud" do I want it? I think we both want your mix to sound as good as it can and if you are pushing too far so that the sound is affected in a negative way, then then by definition you've pushed it too far. If you are not using any bus processing (which is my preference) then how far you push the mix on the meters has no influence on its peak to average ratio, but instead it's the individual track processes you use and within your mix the relation you choose between the rhythm elements and the melody elements. I would say the most successful mixes in any genre that I have received have an RMS level somewhere between -20 dBFS and -14 to -12 dBFS and whose peak level is NEVER clipping.

Thanks Bob, it sounds like I'm in the right domain level-wise (-18 dBfs and never clipping)

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

If we're talking 24bit files then peak level for received mixes is fairly irrelevant to me (as long as it is even a tiny bit below 0dBFs so there's no clipping, and as long as the level isn't really incredibly low - i.e. peaking below -30dBFs) as l'll just attenuate any received mixes as needed prior to sending them to the process chain.

What is much more important to me is making sure that no digital gain stages (i.e. channel faders, output faders, plugins) if you are mixing in the box are getting clipped by going in the "red" - and making sure that no brickwall peak limiters are used on the 2-bus. I've received mixes in the past that were peaking at -6dBFs to allow some "headroom" that were in fact totally clipped and crushed due to these issues!

If you're looking more "maximum loudness potential" I find dryer mixes, spare arrangements, lots of punch and snap, and with kick, snare and vox slightly forward, can sometimes help to increase this. However I generally think people should mix to what sounds good to them and not try and second guess what additional mastering processing will do.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

+1...

[Bob Olhsson]

I'd say making sure that the balance between the different elements of the mix does not depend on signal processing in order to make it "work."

Signal processing can easily hype a mix into "sort-of" working when played on one speaker system in one room at one volume level at the expense of actually "working" anywhere else.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by strewnshank

Issue 1:
When a client is going to want to have their rock track competitively loud, do you prefer slightly more kick/snare in the mix? By "more," I mean more than I'd use to just make the mix sound good....I've noticed that sometimes the kick and snare sound perfect in my RMS -18dBfs mix, however, when I get the loud-ass master back, they are sometimes sorta hidden. Is my guy just doing a C- job, or is that just how it goes?

I would rather you make it as you want it, and I not mess it up. Loudness is not a problem if the mix is good.

[Table Of Tone]

Many of the great rock mix engineers do use a slight but present amount of ducking to make space for the drums.

Of course there are many other factors that go to make a great mix and this is just a tiny one!
As we all know, it's really all down to what's happening in front of the microphones that ultimately dictates the end result.

If it's a great, well recorded mix and I notice a little sidechain activity has been used, it does seem to work this end in the way that I never have any trouble if the client is wanting it loud and still keeping all of the good elements.