Loud kick drum in hip hop-reality or illusion?

[dreambeats]

Hallo!
I am searching for the answer to this question for years,so..
Can You-mastering engineers explain me please-which is the better way to mix,if I want my kick drum to "jump" out a litle bit of whole mix...?
1) just turn up kick fader or ewerything else down..
or:
2) make kick drum loud by itself with effects (comression,limiting,clipping...)
or:
3) emphasize only attack of the kick
...?

Thanks.

[mobius.media]

you can use side chain compression - might help.

[dreambeats]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

you can use side chain compression - might help.

Thanks. I will try this again. I have used this techniqe,but not wery successful...

[Tabnetic]

Originally Posted by dreambeats

Hallo!
I am searching for the answer to this question for years,so..
Can You-mastering engineers explain me please-which is the better way to mix,if I want my kick drum to "jump" out a litle bit of whole mix...?
1) just turn up kick fader or ewerything else down..
or:
2) make kick drum loud by itself with effects (comression,limiting,clipping...)
or:
3) emphasize only attack of the kick
...?

Thanks.

4) proper eq to ensure the kick isn't fighting with other instruments

5) compress the bass w/ a sidechain keyed to the kick. make sure attack and release settings correspond to the tempo of the song. or you can compress the whole mix and sidechain this way, but it's a bit more tricky not to make sound bad.

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by dreambeats

Hallo!
I am searching for the answer to this question for years,so..
Can You-mastering engineers explain me please-which is the better way to mix,if I want my kick drum to "jump" out a litle bit of whole mix...?
1) just turn up kick fader or ewerything else down..
or:
2) make kick drum loud by itself with effects (comression,limiting,clipping...)
or:
3) emphasize only attack of the kick
...?

Thanks.

It's more complex....u may wanna read this lil' article right here

[Franco]

Word to respecting everything else in the mix that lives in the low frequency range (and nearby frequencies for that matter).

[glissando]

I think a lot of the time we percieve something as loud in the mix when it is actually just well "spaced"...this is counter intuitive but try copying your kik, not assigning your second kik, but just using it to trigger an ambience...now take the first kik track and cut a bunch of low sub out of it (yes that's right) so that it generally sounds snappy and flappy...now dial in a verb ,triggered from the second track, that feels nice with the track, eq the shit out of it, low pass, boost 40 50 Hz...in other words find the boom from ambience as opposed to the direct signal and fade it in to taste. When done appropriately this can free up a lot of space down below and even seem more powerful than before...also in mastering, ambience, doesn't seem to get sacrificed as soon as a beefed up direct signal.

also delaying the ambience can create some additional power

[glissando]

Originally Posted by It'sJoeAgain

It's more complex....u may wanna read this lil' article right here

seems the guy is already past that don't you think?

[dreambeats]

Originally Posted by glissando

seems the guy is already past that don't you think?

Thanks for all the answers so far!
I put a lot of work on my kicks-sometimes i spend a week just on kick drum.
And at the end i can make them sound the way i like.

My problem is-how to set the right level for kick in the mix...!?
Maybe-check mix with limiter on? But how much limiting?
Once I had a luck (or maybe not:-)) to hear an unmastered track from one wery famous hip hop producer,and it sounded almost like mastered version,with one exception-kick and snare peaks were limited by 10db!!! And it sounded not bad-punchy and dinamic...
I puted a limiter plugin on that unmastered track-and got the result-wery close to original master...

[Delta Heavy]

Originally Posted by dreambeats

My problem is-how to set the right level for kick in the mix...!?

use your ears....and if something is clipping, just turn everything down

[glissando]

Originally Posted by dreambeats

Thanks for all the answers so far!
I put a lot of work on my kicks-sometimes i spend a week just on kick drum.
And at the end i can make them sound the way i like.

My problem is-how to set the right level for kick in the mix...!?
Maybe-check mix with limiter on? But how much limiting?
Once I had a luck (or maybe not:-)) to hear an unmastered track from one wery famous hip hop producer,and it sounded almost like mastered version,with one exception-kick and snare peaks were limited by 10db!!! And it sounded not bad-punchy and dinamic...
I puted a limiter plugin on that unmastered track-and got the result-wery close to original master...

Maybe he's not past it...I take it back.

[dreambeats]

I just think that,if master limiter pumps mix on every kick -that gives some ''ducking'' effect-sometimes it sound interesting with hip hop tracks-its different result than You turn the kick drum level down,and limit only some occassional peaks ...

[Bubbagump]

Are you compressing the kick? It sounds to me you are cranking the kick to hear more meat which brings up the transient too much in relation to the rest of the mix. Sounds like a job for good old parallel compression. This way instead of making the transient super loud, you can dial in as much "meat" as you want.

The Rocket | Stillwell Audio - It's About The Sound

A good plug to experiment with as it has a built in dry/wet blend knob and some reasonable presets to get started with.

[bob katz]

The fact is that the higher the RMS level of the mix and/or master, the more of an ILLUSION the loudness of the kick drum becomes relative to the rest of the music or beats. And this is because kick drum consists of both (RMS) intensity and peak information (the sound of the beater). When the peak information has been squashed or reduced significantly relative to the intensity, then the impact of the drum and its loudness goes DOWN instead of UP.

In other words, there is an optimum amount of compression that creates a drum with impact, punch, clarity, and loudness, and above a certain amount of compression, that quality goes downhill and becomes a game of illusion, where the sound of the kick becomes more and more compromised. This is especially true in mastering, which in today's game of super hot levels, above a certain RMS level has become a game of compromise rather than a true audiophile art. I mean "audiophile" in the true sense of the word, "the love of good sound." In many many cases with the hip hop masters that I produce today, I find that REDUCING or eliminating compression in the bass region improves the sound of the kick drum, considering how little peak information came in on the mix side to begin with! This is one of the reasons why people are seeking high pass filtering for their compressors (see the recent OCL-2 thread) or why band split or multi-band compression can sometimes help in the art of producing a good master. Even when you are against the idea of using multiband compression as a "normal" mastering tool (which is my feeling), the ability to REDUCE compression in the bass region is one justification for having a multiband unit around!

In other words, I may keep a multiband compressor around just so I can have LESS compression in the bass region in order to produce that LOUD kick drum! Illusion or reality? These questions are ultimately traceable to the current loudness race!

[dreambeats]

Originally Posted by bubbagump

Are you compressing the kick? It sounds to me you are cranking the kick to hear more meat which brings up the transient too much in relation to the rest of the mix. Sounds like a job for good old parallel compression. This way instead of making the transient super loud, you can dial in as much "meat" as you want.

The Rocket | Stillwell Audio - It's About The Sound

A good plug to experiment with as it has a built in dry/wet blend knob and some reasonable presets to get started with.

Thank You for help. I downloaded a demo of this plug-must say that this is one of the best what I have tried for parallel compression.Really good one.

[dreambeats]

Originally Posted by bob katz

The fact is that the higher the RMS level of the mix and/or master, the more of an ILLUSION the loudness of the kick drum becomes relative to the rest of the music or beats. And this is because kick drum consists of both (RMS) intensity and peak information (the sound of the beater). When the peak information has been squashed or reduced significantly relative to the intensity, then the impact of the drum and its loudness goes DOWN instead of UP.

In other words, there is an optimum amount of compression that creates a drum with impact, punch, clarity, and loudness, and above a certain amount of compression, that quality goes downhill and becomes a game of illusion, where the sound of the kick becomes more and more compromised. This is especially true in mastering, which in today's game of super hot levels, above a certain RMS level has become a game of compromise rather than a true audiophile art. I mean "audiophile" in the true sense of the word, "the love of good sound." In many many cases with the hip hop masters that I produce today, I find that REDUCING or eliminating compression in the bass region improves the sound of the kick drum, considering how little peak information came in on the mix side to begin with! This is one of the reasons why people are seeking high pass filtering for their compressors (see the recent OCL-2 thread) or why band split or multi-band compression can sometimes help in the art of producing a good master. Even when you are against the idea of using multiband compression as a "normal" mastering tool (which is my feeling), the ability to REDUCE compression in the bass region is one justification for having a multiband unit around!

In other words, I may keep a multiband compressor around just so I can have LESS compression in the bass region in order to produce that LOUD kick drum! Illusion or reality? These questions are ultimately traceable to the current loudness race!

Thank You a lot for this answer-I highly appreciate!
We-hip hop producers-we want to make a mixes that are loud but still dinamic and punchy-thats the problem:-).So-I am searching the best way to do that!
Your answer proved me that sometimes i was on some rigth way-In my experiments with mix buss compression i found a technique what gives the result-close to what i am serching for: using a split band compressor and compressing (or even limiting) only upper band with crossower between 150-300hz.Then rise up gain of this band.For me it gives a sense that kick is still dinamic in contrast with other elements-say-it jumps out a litle bit of whole mix...
I also experimented with high pass filtering a side chain-but this is a litle different-and there is no make up gain for only high frequencies.Maybe eq after side chain comp?
Any way-thanks for bringing a light to these questions!
(and excuse me for my bad english..)

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by dreambeats

Thank You a lot for this answer-I highly appreciate!

[snip]


i found a technique what gives the result-close to what i am serching for: using a split band compressor and compressing (or even limiting) only upper band with crossower between 150-300hz.Then rise up gain of this band.For me it gives a sense that kick is still dinamic in contrast with other elements-say-it jumps out a litle bit of whole mix...

Good one, dreambeats. By using your ears you've discovered how reducing compression in the bass range helps the bass drum to sound more natural and restore its definition. That's the essence of the so-called "thrust" control on the API 2500 compressor, it allows you to selectively reduce compresion in the bass range. Since the ear is extremely insensitive to bass (Fletcher Munson), bass requires the most power and intensity to be heard in a mix, and this eats up a lot of the headroom, especially in an already compressed environment. So every dB LESS compression you can get away with in the vulnerable bass region will likely improve your bass drum sound if your mix or master is already very hot.

[Mr. Z]

I wonder about the idea of mixing for loudness, which I have seen mentioned in some forums. I get my hip hop mixes sounding the way I like them, with layered drums and the right touch of compression and eq (not much), but the final mixes tend to have more dynamic information in the meters than other mixes I've seen. When I insert my hardware L2 (for client reference CDs only), I have to struggle to get the loudness I want without having to over-limit, which is caused by kick and snare peaks. I wonder if I could tame the peaks in the mix stage, without losing the dynamic feel and sound. Not by just compressing, but in other ways.

I assume the solution is in the arrangement first, then maybe eq relationships between the kicks (and bass too). Maybe I should be more surgical with eq on the various kicks, by giving each one its own specific range and no overlapping, although too much of that tends to make them sound over-mixed. Anyway, just my thoughts on this...

[XAXAU]

If you are still in the mix my best tip is to set up a sidechain equalizer, although there is no such thing available today (******** software developers).

Just set up two buses, one with your kickdrum and the other with the rest of the track. Put a smooth hp filter on the "everything but the kickdrum" bus and draw in the automation, then copy this all over the track.
What happens is that whenever the kickdrum hits, you filter out the low frequencies of the rest of the track giving you a solid kick that cuts thru the track like butter. The frequencies you cut out are representated by the kick so you won´t hear that they´re gone. Experiment with the automation curves to get the best results. I use around a 16th of a note and up to around 250-300Hz on the filter.

Cheers...

[SurveillanceP]

Suggestion One-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you could think of it like the electro guys do when they are building a kick sound from scratch.

3 elements-

1. Kick (low meat)

2. Click (the high sound, traditionally the beater on the drum)

3. decay tone and length.

Perhaps you don't have control over all these individual elements, but if you do, are they all tuned appropriately? You don't have to tune them scientifically to the key to make them work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suggestion Two

Make some space for the kick, like the pro's said. When you are making space, remember those three elements, some of them might be fine, but one maybe not so good.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My two cents about parallel compression for a kick, I don't normally like it. Rather use a tidy eq setting.

My two cents about compressing a kick on its own, I don't normally like that either. But thats cause I'm tired of hearing fail kick transients in music. I spose if you get your attack right its sweet, I just rarely feel the need. only time I feel like using a comp on a kick is to control the decay, but there's usually a better way of doing that anyway with other mics.

[danika]

Like the Black Eyed Peas song says, "Pump It". It's a fairly common dance mix technique. Set up a bus with everything but the kick and the vocals, and put a compressor on it with the kick as a sidechain input. So the pumping won't sound so obvious, layer the output of the bus with an uncompressed version. This video shows how: YouTube - Sidechaining: Dance Mix Kick Drum Pumping

[cemski]

Good thought mr.z!
i think to have the peaks of kick and snare a little too loud in the mix is good for mastering, as you loose some of it in the process to get a certain densitiy and punch (if wanted!!). and then it can result in a perfect balance. just my experience...

[Jesse Graffam]

Originally Posted by glissando

Maybe he's not past it...I take it back.

I'm 90% sure who he's talking about, and actually that is THEE way to get a kick & snare to really SLAM on the final master. Lots of headroom, so the final limiting/clipping is mostly just on kick & snare. This causes the limiter/clipper to "push" everything else down for a split second, and that is what's causing them to be "spaced" while they peak, while still allowing for a nice full sounding mix.

This is like Rap 101, and you're saying he's not past that article (which I didn't read, lol). Ok.

The key to making this work is really good limiting and/or clipping. The producer you're probably talking about happens to rock a pair of Distressors too, which are part of his in-studio finalization process. So his mix levels before that saturation/distortion are even hotter than +10dB above mastered levels.

So possibly try some hard edged saturation that only is triggered by the kick/snare peaks by carefully setting the threshold (but with the full mix also running through or it won't distort the mix too), then try limiting it. Or if you have a good way of clipping without audible distortion products, try that too, possibly in combination with limiting. (and never limit after clipping)

Originally Posted by bob katz

When the peak information has been squashed or reduced significantly relative to the intensity, then the impact of the drum and its loudness goes DOWN instead of UP.

Word.

[dreambeats]

Originally Posted by XAXAU

If you are still in the mix my best tip is to set up a sidechain equalizer, although there is no such thing available today (******** software developers).

Just set up two buses, one with your kickdrum and the other with the rest of the track. Put a smooth hp filter on the "everything but the kickdrum" bus and draw in the automation, then copy this all over the track.
What happens is that whenever the kickdrum hits, you filter out the low frequencies of the rest of the track giving you a solid kick that cuts thru the track like butter. The frequencies you cut out are representated by the kick so you won´t hear that they´re gone. Experiment with the automation curves to get the best results. I use around a 16th of a note and up to around 250-300Hz on the filter.

Cheers...

...thanks, good idea-I will try this!

[dreambeats]

Originally Posted by uncajesse

Lots of headroom, so the final limiting/clipping is mostly just on kick & snare.

Exactly-that's what i was talking about.

[XAXAU]

Originally Posted by dreambeats

...thanks, good idea-I will try this!

I also use a little bit of fast sidechain compression too.

And you could also automate a notch at 3kHz and for a 1/32 note cut that out from everything but the kick and vocals (plus vocal space fx).

If you mangle the kickdrum too much in the mix it´ll break apart when sent to mastering, thus it´s better to go easy on the processing and have it a little louder in the mix instead IMHO.

Cheers...

[Bang]

its all about the relationship with the bass... if you want the kick to jump, make sure the bass isn't all over the kick frequencies.. a sidechain will work but so will a standard mix buss comp or even just a mult of the kick and bass..

[XAXAU]

Another way to go is to have three buses, kick, bass and everything else.

Kickbus: Cut the subs, boost at 100Hz (where the punch is) and boost a little at 3kHz. UAD Pultec is perfect for this.

Bass: Boost where you cut the kick, and automate an eq at 100Hz whenever the kick hits. Useful when you have those deep things going on.

Everythingelsebus: HP and notch out 3kHz whenever the kick hits.


If doing four to the floor you can draw out the automation all of the track and save a template. Done.


Cheers...

[proinstrumentals]

, I have recently purchased a avalon 737 and a manley vu compressor, now, Now what I have found, that sonnox make a plug in called a trans mod, which actually works by grabbing and I have no idea how or technicality, but give the top of the drum more punch,, given to get nice, dre sounding bass, solid state, or other high end compressors, create that sound, you can actually compress a muddy bass line, just right, and it will fit in the mix, the key is, to get a consistent vu reading, for you visual heads, listen to the track, get a transparent(a compressor that compresses, but only a keen ear can hear it... compressor like the api 2500 or manleys line, or tube tech,, these pieces of gear, work... 5 k is sharpness or snap of a kick...., but honestly it starts with the lo end,, great samples, and frequency choices, will get you alot further,, how the kick was m I ceed,, and so on... 55hz is a great lo rumble, 80 hz is roundness\\thuddness, 120hz is tight punch round,,)but you can't have them all cut unwanted bass in the bass,, sounds stupid but trust me 320, to 400, in a nice lo end, really can hurt a kick,,,,, roll off lower lo lo freqs, in the kick and maybe empahsize 30hz, this may all sound like jibberish, but as for me being a engineer for about 10 years using all software, I found that some things are worth the money, Good ad convertors, good channel strips, good samples, good sounds exspecially for hip hop, search for, pro kick drums, and mix around this... I have done it, and made some serious albums.... your music will go to the next level.. check sonnox out for now!!!! OH BIG TIP, good monitors, mix the bass at a lo level, the lo levels, tend to capture the whole spectrum of the lo end and wants its right lo, get it at medium, go to another space, or step away from the speakers, see if the bass is overpowering, or to little, I always compress at this stage, and if you want turn it up loud, to see if the bass is sitting to big! if so pull out some dynamic adjustments, COMPRESSOR, LIMITER, MANLEY VU IS A MONSTER, AVALON IS A MONSTER IN MY EYES.. I boost major bass, then compress lo subs to the wall, letting the attack of a drum do what it does, attack...,,, Now a speaker such as the yamaha ns-10 if you can get the bass right on this, it will absolutely slam on other systems, or transfer well. In engineering talk... GOOD luck God Bless, and don't give up,,, find your own nitch, you never know... the other bad part about bass, is people tend to focus on the bass, when really they should be focusing on the track as a whole,, learn to do this, get eqs compressors, and every other tool to become second nature, then you will know what to do when kick drums come in.. AND TO BE HONEST, I END UP SWAPPING 70 percent of KICK DRUMS OUT of recordings I am mixing.... or adding another kick to give it that hip hop thud and snap find samples that were recorded with big gear,, and great engineers, and you will get great hip hop kicks, and bass tones.... Diz

Apple - iTunes - Everything you need to be entertained. Diz+ dis da shit

[fourvector]

Originally Posted by proinstrumentals

, I have recently purchased a avalon 737 and a manley vu compressor, now, Now what I have found, that sonnox make a plug in called a trans mod, which actually works by grabbing and I have no idea how or technicality, but give the top of the drum more punch,, given to get nice, dre sounding bass, solid state, or other high end compressors, create that sound, you can actually compress a muddy bass line, just right, and it will fit in the mix, the key is, to get a consistent vu reading, for you visual heads, listen to the track, get a transparent(a compressor that compresses, but only a keen ear can hear it... compressor like the api 2500 or manleys line, or tube tech,, these pieces of gear, work... 5 k is sharpness or snap of a kick...., but honestly it starts with the lo end,, great samples, and frequency choices, will get you alot further,, how the kick was m I ceed,, and so on... 55hz is a great lo rumble, 80 hz is roundness\\thuddness, 120hz is tight punch round,,)but you can't have them all cut unwanted bass in the bass,, sounds stupid but trust me 320, to 400, in a nice lo end, really can hurt a kick,,,,, roll off lower lo lo freqs, in the kick and maybe empahsize 30hz, this may all sound like jibberish, but as for me being a engineer for about 10 years using all software, I found that some things are worth the money, Good ad convertors, good channel strips, good samples, good sounds exspecially for hip hop, search for, pro kick drums, and mix around this... I have done it, and made some serious albums.... your music will go to the next level.. check sonnox out for now!!!! OH BIG TIP, good monitors, mix the bass at a lo level, the lo levels, tend to capture the whole spectrum of the lo end and wants its right lo, get it at medium, go to another space, or step away from the speakers, see if the bass is overpowering, or to little, I always compress at this stage, and if you want turn it up loud, to see if the bass is sitting to big! if so pull out some dynamic adjustments, COMPRESSOR, LIMITER, MANLEY VU IS A MONSTER, AVALON IS A MONSTER IN MY EYES.. I boost major bass, then compress lo subs to the wall, letting the attack of a drum do what it does, attack...,,, Now a speaker such as the yamaha ns-10 if you can get the bass right on this, it will absolutely slam on other systems, or transfer well. In engineering talk... GOOD luck God Bless, and don't give up,,, find your own nitch, you never know... the other bad part about bass, is people tend to focus on the bass, when really they should be focusing on the track as a whole,, learn to do this, get eqs compressors, and every other tool to become second nature, then you will know what to do when kick drums come in.. AND TO BE HONEST, I END UP SWAPPING 70 percent of KICK DRUMS OUT of recordings I am mixing.... or adding another kick to give it that hip hop thud and snap find samples that were recorded with big gear,, and great engineers, and you will get great hip hop kicks, and bass tones.... Diz

Apple - iTunes - Everything you need to be entertained. Diz+ dis da shit

God, my eyes.