Stepped Attenuators

[Unsound]

I'll soon be purchasing a Manley Vari Mu and an Ibis, both of these units have the mastering version with stepped attenuators. I understand the reasoning for stepped attenuators on stereo mastering pieces.

One question I have though is if you really want to be precise with the controls and the "sweet spot" is in between the two indents isn't that more of a hindrancet? Has anyone found that to be an issue ever?

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Unsound

I'll soon be purchasing a Manley Vari Mu and an Ibis, both of these units have the mastering version with stepped attenuators. I understand the reasoning for stepped attenuators on stereo mastering pieces.

One question I have though is if you really want to be precise with the controls and the "sweet spot" is in between the two indents isn't that more of a hindrancet? Has anyone found that to be an issue ever?

For eq's as long as the steps are in 1/2dB increments I never find the way better and easier side matching and recall to be a hinderance at all. The fact you can't go "in between" actually makes for quicker decisions than some digital eq's that let you sit there for a minute thinking "hmmm... does this sound better at +0.5 or +0.6" or other such option anxiety driven nonsense.

With compressors 1dB steps work fine for me as well.

The 2dB steps you find on many older European mastering eq modules (such as the BFE/Filtek MK3, Neumann W495, etc.) are generally too steep for being able to use these in most current mastering tasks though.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[psykostx]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

"hmmm... does this sound better at +0.5 or +0.6" or other such option anxiety driven nonsense.

Lol so true. If someone else was turning the knob you wouldn't hear a difference! You should have enough headroom going back into your converter anyway where this doesn't matter. Unless you're going to chrome, then thats a very valid concern I guess, then again, I think a good deck should have attenuators on it, no?

Also, I didn't know attenuators had sweetspots, I thought that was just when you raise the gain, not lower it? Yes, no? Or did you mean the sweetspot of whatever your destination?

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by psykostx

Also, I didn't know attenuators had sweetspots, I thought that was just when you raise the gain, not lower it? Yes, no?

No.

Besides, back when Everything Sounded Great™ the increments were 2dB.


DC

[jamescater]

When mixing yes 0.1db steps can make the difference between a kick and bass gelling perfectly.

When mastering it's more about broad brush decisions and so 0.5db steps are fine.

Sometimes I might get frustrated with my MLA-2 compressor that only has 1db threshold steps, but I can always change the gain of the input to adjust that.

The cranesong STC-8 has 0.25 db steps which is the best of both worlds if you crave accuracy, however if you're focusing too much on tiny adjustments during mastering you may miss the bigger picture completely. (especially if it's your own mix that you did in the same room)

[chrisD]

Originally Posted by dcollins

No.

Besides, back when Everything Sounded Great™ the increments were 2dB.


DC

How right you are!

p.s. Do you own that trademark? You should.

[Tapwatr]

Are these mastering versions really worth the money? I mean the Ibis mastering version is around $4000 Cdn more than the regular version. I'd rather spend that money or more gear then stepped controls. Am I missing something here?

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by dcollins

...back when Everything Sounded Great™ the increments were 2dB.

When waves API 550 plug came out I took one of my hobby productions and did a mix using nothing but the 2dB per step eq. on every channel. It was amazing how this changed the decision making process. If 2 dB. didn't sound better, you left it flat. If 4 didn't sound better than 2, you left it at 2.

A year later I was going over my mixes and discoverd that by far the best sounding mix I had done was my API experiment. How much of this game is managing one's mind?

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Tapwatr

Are these mastering versions really worth the money? I mean the Ibis mastering version is around $4000 Cdn more than the regular version. I'd rather spend that money or more gear then stepped controls. Am I missing something here?

If you're doing mastering every day for clients where you both need to make sure you are maintaining L/R channel balance and where they might want to recall or revise tracks then having stepped controls is absolutely worth the extra cash if you can afford it.

If you are just using your processors for tracking/mixing and or occasional "home mastering" then it's better to save the cash.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Tapwatr

Are these mastering versions really worth the money? I mean the Ibis mastering version is around $4000 Cdn more than the regular version. I'd rather spend that money or more gear then stepped controls. Am I missing something here?

Recall-ability.... and a more aligned stereo image.

[Virtalahde]

Originally Posted by Tapwatr

Are these mastering versions really worth the money?

In daily work, detended, precise controls are absolutely priceless. No stress in balancing the left and right perfectly, no 10 minutes of comparing when a track comes back you with the notes "everything else was perfect, but could we have just a tad more highs".

When I have to choose, I'll take 1,4kHz + 0,5dB vs 1,32dB-ish + 0,6dB-ish any day.

[wado1942]

You know, not often, but I occasionally like being able to go in as fine as .25dB increments. It sounds nuts but if the right channel is a little bright and the left channel is JUST a little dull, I may boost the high end on the left channel by .25dB and cut it on the right by maybe .5dB and together, they sound more ballanced even though the overall change is unnoticable.
But for the most part, anything finer than .5dB is overkill.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by wado1942

You know, not often, but I occasionally like being able to go in as fine as .25dB increments. It sounds nuts but if the right channel is a little bright and the left channel is JUST a little dull, I may boost the high end on the left channel by .25dB and cut it on the right by maybe .5dB and together, they sound more ballanced even though the overall change is unnoticable.
But for the most part, anything finer than .5dB is overkill.

With digital eq's I do in fact find 1/4dB steps are really nice to have - in fact these are the amounts I most use with the Sonoris EQ2. But for analog - having an either/or decision just makes a lot more sense to me.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[psykostx]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

How much of this game is managing one's mind?

All of it. How can you manage gear if you can't manage yourself? Thats why I try to just sit back and relax... just let the problems present themselves instead of seeking them out. I mean, after all, If you have to squint your ears to hear a problem, is it really a problem?

[Unsound]

This is my first foray into these types of high end boxes. I've used them in mastering sessions where I was the client not the engineer. Is it really hard to get both sides to be equal?

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

... How much of this game is managing one's mind?

Exactly... and the more “suggestions” the mind receives the more confused it is....

Larry

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Unsound

This is my first foray into these types of high end boxes. I've used them in mastering sessions where I was the client not the engineer. Is it really hard to get both sides to be equal?

It's easy enough to hear what kind of variance you are getting in a stereo eq by running pink noise through and phase inverting one of the channels. If you still hear noise you can adjust the bands until it is minimized as much possible. My Amek Medici (all gains are on center detented but other wise continuously variable pots) has this functionality built in.

Anyway - a lot of times it's not that big of an issue if there's slight variance from the original L/R balance after mastering. But anything over a .25dB can occasionally change the carefully planned instrument balances by a degree noticeable to some picky engineers and artists.

I use a few eq's and one comp that don't have all controls stepped. There's ways of working around the problems they bring up that aren't hard to do. BUT - if I had the cash to change it I'd get everything stepped in a heartbeat.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Unsound]

I am just building my first room and investing in $30,000 worth of gear. At this point more un-stepped boxes seems like a better way to go then less stepped ones, know what I'm saying! I don't even know if this business is going to fly so....

Would stepped API 550m's be a better call than the non-stepped Ibis? I like the sound of both....

[glassmaster]

Originally Posted by Unsound

I am just building my first room and investing in $30,000 worth of gear. At this point more un-stepped boxes seems like a better way to go then less stepped ones, know what I'm saying!

if you can't do good work with a few well-chosen, high-quality processors, then having more "boxes" isn't going to help. Start with a well- designed infrastructure; adding more EQs & compressors is easily done as budgets and needs evolve.

[Unsound]

if you can't do good work with a few well-chosen, high-quality processors, then having more "boxes" isn't going to help. Start with a well- designed infrastructure; adding more EQs & compressors is easily done as budgets and needs evolve.

I agree, I'm going to start with one hardware eq, one hardware compressor. The mastering versions will take too much of my budget so I think I will opt for the non-mastering versions, a Manley Back Bone, Lavry Blue converters and some monitors like Barefoot or K&H 0410. Seems like a good start to me.

[StephenMarsh]

to confuse the issue a smidge more.......In addition to L/R correlation and 're-setability' I think most purists would also argue that the garden variety pots in most gear are 'dirtier' than the switches found in the mastering versions.

[Ben F]

On an EQ stepped gains are pretty essential, but on some passive EQs that run a parallel design (such as the Massive Passive) the increments would never be accurate anyway.

For the hardware compressors I just run a 1kHz tone, flip the phase, and check it cancels. Takes 10 seconds before a session. The OP gain is generally left at 0, and all that is adjusted is the threshold, attack and release. Many outboard compressors have switched attack/release as well making this even simpler.

[Virtalahde]

Originally Posted by Ben F

On an EQ stepped gains are pretty essential, but on some passive EQs that run a parallel design (such as the Massive Passive) the increments would never be accurate anyway.

If it comes with an adjustable Q (=series resistance), then yes - the dB increments will not be accurate.

However, they can and will be accurate between the left and right channel if switches are used and the coils & caps are matched well enough. My home-cooked passive EQ (filters in parallel) is very accurate L to R. But that design couldn't be done with pots anyway..