A deep subwoofer and a deeper subwoofer

[EngineEars]

Has anyone ever heard or heard of a listening system that utilizes two separate subwoofers (a main one then a much deeper one) much like the Tannoy Super Tweeter except the other end of the spectrum?

I'm sure it would be hard to configure with accurate phase, but I could also imagine the benefits of such a system. Just curious?

[Jesse Graffam]

Although for a different application, my old TurboSound Floodlight setup had dual 18" bins for the normal mains, and single 24" bins fed by an AUX for routing a few things to like kick drum, bass guitar, and "tracks" (ala DAT or keyboard rack, etc)

[pmx]

Floodlight

brings back memories

how deep do you want to go? there are enough sub that go to 20/25 hz, so i would save the trouble and just go the easy way with one sub.

[OMNIFEX]

Originally Posted by EngineEars

Has anyone ever heard or heard of a listening system that utilizes two separate subwoofers (a main one then a much deeper one) much like the Tannoy Super Tweeter except the other end of the spectrum?

I'm sure it would be hard to configure with accurate phase, but I could also imagine the benefits of such a system. Just curious?

What you are inquiring about is common in many large Rave systems. The concept is the assumption of gaining a better fidelity by breaking down the two frequencies within the bass region in order to enhance a better bass response.

Unfortunately many tend to overlook the phase issues you mentioned in addition to the time delay. Although the time delay can be remedied, the phase tends to create problems too severe for two cabinets to work together within the bass region. This is quite common when one tries to mix horn-loaded cabinets with reflex enclosures.

I’ve had my experience pursuing such a quest until I started to perform tests and, realise it was a lack of low midrange leading me to-wards such a configuration.

The problem that many encounter is the lack of understanding what frequencies are needed and run about stating “warm” or “coloured.” None of those terms are helpful if you are dumbfounded observing frequency graph and, cannot determine what frequencies are needed in order to attain a “warm” or “coloured” tone.

A good subwoofer will have no issues amplifying 100 Hertz to wherever the music materials cut-off point lies. That cut-off point of the music material will be – 3 dB when observing a spectrum analyser.

Cheers!

[psykostx]

OMNI is 100% correct. Whether you need warmth or color is application specific though. If you're trying to do something truly psychotic yet original, try making a tesla style mechanically-coupled resonator... that should take you down to about 2hz. Hope you have an earthquake proof studio and let me know how it turns out!

PS: Most (don't start heckling me, bassists, ME's) people can only hear bass down to about 45hz, below that and you just feel it. If you live in the city or have every owned a pair of subs for your car, you might even be desensitized at 50hz. A lot of people can hear down past 20 I'd imagine, because I know a few people that can mix quite well in a pinch with just headphones. Most consumer speaker systems don't go below 20hz...even really "good" ones. You know a system is bass accurate (linear) when you can "see" the lower register instrements as clearly defined in space without leaking out toward/coming from all different directions. It costs at least $800 to experience this from consumer stuff...however, you can bet the mids won't be there for you when you need them.

Bottom Line: Going below 20hz for music is crazy and going below 10hz for anything is likely to throw a cone onto someones living room floor.

[Jesse Graffam]

http://www.harmony-central.com/Produ.../000036343.jpg
^ time aligned, single point source 3-way speaker... photographed with the rear cover off.

As far as blending two sets of subs together, it matters completely on the environment. Sometimes I ran my 24" bins right off master C and messed around with the placements and timings to actually fix bass problems in the venue. So it's not just a one way street.

I do agree with Omnifex about the difficulty of mixing horn loaded (box/surface/acoustic) cabinets together with other designs. Also... having a highly directional loudspeaker in a mastering environment is MUCH harder to get "right" by removing issues. Having a wider dispersion, shorter "throwing" & more transient accurate speaker design, and improving the acoustics of the room is where the effort needs to be spent for mastering. "Needing" to split into over 3 bands is against the grain, and ignores that nearly all of the best sounding small audio systems even lately are 2-3 bands. imo.

That is not to say that the trend can't be and is never bucked, it is. But are you trying to be a speaker design and acoustician or a mastering engineer.


Lastly @ throwing cones, you may or may not be surprised that most consumer audio systems have relatively small coupling capacitors far before the power amps, so they couldn't send 20hz to the drivers even if you input it. by design. There are actually subwoofers that'll hit 10hz, well defined, and throw it over 100dBs, over 250 meters... like the one this guy is standing in:

And the only thing left would BE the floor itself. Lol.

[psykostx]

When I was into car audio, those would have been 36" subs lol. Thanks for the tip man! Never got into building amps, just building enclosures. You should read in my other post where I talk about my experiences building sub enclosures. Let me go get a link....

[psykostx]

Don't ask how I got to talkin about building subs...even when I read it I can't figure it out ahaha

Can dynaudio's bm series be used for mastering?