converting vinyl to digital: compression on the master?

samtastic · 11th July 2009, 07:59 AM

hi all,
I've got a bunch of old 12" house/techno singles that can't be bought on CD or digitally. I've tried recording these into Ableton Live using the line-in on my Macbook and have found that my recordings lack punch.

When I mix (as in DJing) the recorded tracks into other bought digital tracks (Beatport fodder usually), they have much less presence than anything else I play. Which is a bummer, cause some of these old tunes are where it is at!

Was wondering if anyone had any advice for converting vinyl to digital? I know that tracks are often engineered differently depending on whether or not they are going to be on vinyl or CD, so what changes should I make to to prepare a vinyl recording for digital audio?

thanks all, i hope im not being too vague : )

mercurydime · 11th July 2009, 01:12 PM

are you using a preamp in to your daw? phono output on its own is relatively weak, and needs to have a signal boost via a preamp. it's helpful if the preamp has the RIAA filter conversion set in it...in other words, a dedicated phono preamp. if your results lack punch or are anemic in some way, it would seem to indicate a lack of low end. you are probably already aware that low end must be tightly controlled when mastering initially for vinyl. the 'RIAA curve' in a dedicated preamp restores that tamed low end upon playback. and there are software programs that can restore the proper eq, too. first, though, you'd want to have a healthy signal from your turntable's output in to your computer...

tell us a bit more about your equipment set-up...

best,

samtastic · 11th July 2009, 02:27 PM

Right, of course.

Ok. the signal is coming out of a (grounded) Sansui turntable, into the phono input of a Marantz amplifier, then coming from the amp's headphone socket into my computer's line-in.

So I am playing the vinyl through a dedicated phono amplifier, and then taking it from here directly into my computer's line-in.

cheers

IIIrd · 11th July 2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samtastic

hi all,
I've got a bunch of old 12" house/techno singles that can't be bought on CD or digitally. I've tried recording these into Ableton Live using the line-in on my Macbook and have found that my recordings lack punch.

When I mix (as in DJing) the recorded tracks into other bought digital tracks (Beatport fodder usually), they have much less presence than anything else I play. Which is a bummer, cause some of these old tunes are where it is at!

Was wondering if anyone had any advice for converting vinyl to digital? I know that tracks are often engineered differently depending on whether or not they are going to be on vinyl or CD, so what changes should I make to to prepare a vinyl recording for digital audio?

thanks all, i hope im not being too vague : )

are you sure is not that the tranfers you've done are alot quieter than cd dance releases. they do tend to be silly loud in my experience. a vinyl wont be anywhere near that sort of level, and your a - d will on ly allow you so much level when you transfer.

Lupo · 11th July 2009, 04:43 PM

Try the other way - play vinyl records at their usual level and mix in some CD tracks at loudness matched level. Chances are high that the CD masters will sound wimpy compared to the vinyl!

Additionally, you may want to look into getting a better converter. Don't think the bog standard line inputs on the mac does much good to the sound, but I haven't tried. ;)

ncoak · 11th July 2009, 05:27 PM

vinyl recordings will rms a good 6db lower than digital electronic recordings, easy. if you need them to be as loud, hit the brickwall.

Adam Dempsey · 12th July 2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lupo

Try the other way - play vinyl records at their usual level and mix in some CD tracks at loudness matched level. Chances are high that the CD masters will sound wimpy compared to the vinyl!

kjg · 12th July 2009, 01:20 PM

just reduce the level of the cd tracks to match the digitized vinyl. it is that simple. no compression needed.

dobyblue · 14th July 2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samtastic

Ok. the signal is coming out of a (grounded) Sansui turntable, into the phono input of a Marantz amplifier, then coming from the amp's headphone socket into my computer's line-in.

I'm not sure what level the Sansui turntable is at, or what type of cartridge, tonearm, etc., modifications you might have made...but I do know that unless your Marantz is decades old that these days a dedicated phono pre-amp, even ones in the $150 range, will do a much better job with your signal than a built-in phono input on a receiver.

I have a Goldring GR-2 turntable and originally had it going into the phono input of an Onkyo TX-SR805 and when I upgraded to the $150 Parasound Zphono preamp it made a night and day difference in the level, clarity and frequency response/punch of every record I put on.

loujudson · 14th July 2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samtastic

Right, of course.

Ok. the signal is coming out of a (grounded) Sansui turntable, into the phono input of a Marantz amplifier, then coming from the amp's headphone socket into my computer's line-in.

So I am playing the vinyl through a dedicated phono amplifier, and then taking it from here directly into my computer's line-in.

cheers

2 things - you should be comning out of the tape out, not the headphone jack, and you might want to use an outboard A/D sound card, not the computer's internal convertors.

And just to quibble, that is the phono input of a combo amp, not a "dedicated" phono preamp. Dedicated means it does only one thing...

Best luck!
L

samtastic · 15th July 2009, 01:12 PM

well i tried dropping the volume in my taken-from-CD tracks when mixing, and then blending in the taken-from-vinyl tracks at a volume that sounds right. And this definitely helped. So i'll be doing this from now on.

However, I've only tried it with a track of a particular EP, and i found that it now lacked a lot of definitive top-end. There was plenty of upper vocal top end (say around 5KHz) - perhaps even too much, but not enough definition of the higher percussion (around 10KHz).

But i cant be sure if this is due to my soundcard/record player/stylus or simply the way the record is produced. I'll have to try it with another soon.

thanks for the suggestions so far

loujudson · 15th July 2009, 03:12 PM

Here's another thought - if you have a bunch of rumble from your low-end turntable, the low frequency energy will rob the rest of the sound of its dynamic liveness.

I have a cheap Pioneer TT and I need to put a steep low cut at 20Hz to get rid of the record rumble. I alos use a spectrum analyser to see what is there that cannot be heard - those lows will take all your power away from the music!

Check it out and let us know. SpectraFoo is a good way to look at the sounds.

Lou

Franco · 15th July 2009, 07:55 PM

I ended up purchasing a Stanton T.90 for digitizing my wax, I'm using the SPDIF connection (the quality of the converters is decent, although for the life of me, I don't understand why they didn't put a ground screw on this thing because it has a degree of hum when I play records through my receiver, not an issue however using the digital connection, haven't used the USB connector though).

Recording the wax @ 16/44.1 using direct monitoring in SoundForge (can't do this in my preferred editing app, Audition 3).

In audition 3, create markers for each track and then batch process them to create individual files. It's a breeze.

Created a script in Audition 3 to:

1. Normalize to -3.0dbfs
2. Load UAD Pultec Pro preset I called "Vinyl Salt & Pepper" (gentle boost of the low/mids).
3. Load UAD Precision Maximizer preset (*lightly* boosts RMS levels, set it up to bring out just a tad bit of punch, limiter deactivated).
4. Normalize to -0.3dbfs.

So far, I'm real happy with the results. The T.90 doesn't sound as good as my Technics 1200 that I had to sell a few years back thru my HiFi, but for digitizing to CD or MP3, this thing's not bad at all.

Sounds Great · 15th July 2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncoak

vinyl recordings will rms a good 6db lower than digital electronic recordings, easy. if you need them to be as loud, hit the brickwall.

What is wrong with using a volume control?

I finally replaced my cassette collection with CD's. I made 90% of the CD's myself (on my Masterlink) from the vinyl records and a few SACD's. This is for my car.

Funny thing, the CD's I made from the records sound 10 times better than any of the commercial CD's. Difference is huge. But I do tend to turn the volume up more on them.

Jesse Graffam · 16th July 2009, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

What is wrong with using a volume control?

No kidding. This is the second topic in a week where the OP said the application was DJing, and someone suggested to use brick wall limiting to increase the volume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Funny thing, the CD's I made from the records sound 10 times better than any of the commercial CD's. Difference is huge. But I do tend to turn the volume up more on them.

It's the recording, not the medium.

Franco · 16th July 2009, 08:16 PM

The key is to be able to increase average levels without squashing the material; it doesn't have to be one extreme (absolutely no processing) or the other (brickwall limit the audio).

The volume knob thing can be a real drag if you're also transferring your digitized LPs to your iTunes library and listening to it in shuffle mode.

If anyone's curious, here's a "gently-boosted" track off my Guitar Forms album by Kenny Burrell (audio drop-outs done on purpose):

01 Downstairs.mp3

11th July 2009, 07:59 AM	#1
samtastic Gear interested Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3	converting vinyl to digital: compression on the master? hi all, I've got a bunch of old 12" house/techno singles that can't be bought on CD or digitally. I've tried recording these into Ableton Live using the line-in on my Macbook and have found that my recordings lack punch. When I mix (as in DJing) the recorded tracks into other bought digital tracks (Beatport fodder usually), they have much less presence than anything else I play. Which is a bummer, cause some of these old tunes are where it is at! Was wondering if anyone had any advice for converting vinyl to digital? I know that tracks are often engineered differently depending on whether or not they are going to be on vinyl or CD, so what changes should I make to to prepare a vinyl recording for digital audio? thanks all, i hope im not being too vague : )

11th July 2009, 01:12 PM	#2
mercurydime Gear nut Join Date: May 2008 Location: Eastern escarpment of the Blue Ridge Mountains Posts: 117	are you using a preamp in to your daw? phono output on its own is relatively weak, and needs to have a signal boost via a preamp. it's helpful if the preamp has the RIAA filter conversion set in it...in other words, a dedicated phono preamp. if your results lack punch or are anemic in some way, it would seem to indicate a lack of low end. you are probably already aware that low end must be tightly controlled when mastering initially for vinyl. the 'RIAA curve' in a dedicated preamp restores that tamed low end upon playback. and there are software programs that can restore the proper eq, too. first, though, you'd want to have a healthy signal from your turntable's output in to your computer... tell us a bit more about your equipment set-up... best, __________________ ------------------------------------------------ Stephen Blanton www.blantonemusic.com www.vinylrecordstocd.com www.wncw.org

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11th July 2009, 02:27 PM	#3
samtastic Gear interested Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3	Right, of course. Ok. the signal is coming out of a (grounded) Sansui turntable, into the phono input of a Marantz amplifier, then coming from the amp's headphone socket into my computer's line-in. So I am playing the vinyl through a dedicated phono amplifier, and then taking it from here directly into my computer's line-in. cheers

11th July 2009, 04:43 PM	#5
Lupo Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 1,170	Try the other way - play vinyl records at their usual level and mix in some CD tracks at loudness matched level. Chances are high that the CD masters will sound wimpy compared to the vinyl! Additionally, you may want to look into getting a better converter. Don't think the bog standard line inputs on the mac does much good to the sound, but I haven't tried. ;)

11th July 2009, 05:27 PM	#6
ncoak Gear addict Join Date: May 2009 Location: oakland ca Posts: 429	vinyl recordings will rms a good 6db lower than digital electronic recordings, easy. if you need them to be as loud, hit the brickwall.

12th July 2009, 01:20 PM	#8
kjg Lives for gear Join Date: May 2008 Location: Amsterdam, NL Posts: 856	just reduce the level of the cd tracks to match the digitized vinyl. it is that simple. no compression needed.

15th July 2009, 01:12 PM	#11
samtastic Gear interested Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3	well i tried dropping the volume in my taken-from-CD tracks when mixing, and then blending in the taken-from-vinyl tracks at a volume that sounds right. And this definitely helped. So i'll be doing this from now on. However, I've only tried it with a track of a particular EP, and i found that it now lacked a lot of definitive top-end. There was plenty of upper vocal top end (say around 5KHz) - perhaps even too much, but not enough definition of the higher percussion (around 10KHz). But i cant be sure if this is due to my soundcard/record player/stylus or simply the way the record is produced. I'll have to try it with another soon. thanks for the suggestions so far

15th July 2009, 03:12 PM	#12
loujudson Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,834	Here's another thought - if you have a bunch of rumble from your low-end turntable, the low frequency energy will rob the rest of the sound of its dynamic liveness. I have a cheap Pioneer TT and I need to put a steep low cut at 20Hz to get rid of the record rumble. I alos use a spectrum analyser to see what is there that cannot be heard - those lows will take all your power away from the music! Check it out and let us know. SpectraFoo is a good way to look at the sounds. Lou

15th July 2009, 07:55 PM	#13
Franco Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Not working on music, which is were I SHOULD be. Posts: 787	I ended up purchasing a Stanton T.90 for digitizing my wax, I'm using the SPDIF connection (the quality of the converters is decent, although for the life of me, I don't understand why they didn't put a ground screw on this thing because it has a degree of hum when I play records through my receiver, not an issue however using the digital connection, haven't used the USB connector though). Recording the wax @ 16/44.1 using direct monitoring in SoundForge (can't do this in my preferred editing app, Audition 3). In audition 3, create markers for each track and then batch process them to create individual files. It's a breeze. Created a script in Audition 3 to: 1. Normalize to -3.0dbfs 2. Load UAD Pultec Pro preset I called "Vinyl Salt & Pepper" (gentle boost of the low/mids). 3. Load UAD Precision Maximizer preset (lightly boosts RMS levels, set it up to bring out just a tad bit of punch, limiter deactivated). 4. Normalize to -0.3dbfs. So far, I'm real happy with the results. The T.90 doesn't sound as good as my Technics 1200 that I had to sell a few years back thru my HiFi, but for digitizing to CD or MP3, this thing's not bad at all.

16th July 2009, 08:16 PM	#16
Franco Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Not working on music, which is were I SHOULD be. Posts: 787	The key is to be able to increase average levels without squashing the material; it doesn't have to be one extreme (absolutely no processing) or the other (brickwall limit the audio). The volume knob thing can be a real drag if you're also transferring your digitized LPs to your iTunes library and listening to it in shuffle mode. If anyone's curious, here's a "gently-boosted" track off my Guitar Forms album by Kenny Burrell (audio drop-outs done on purpose): 01 Downstairs.mp3