please reccomend Colour EQ for Bass in mastering

[Joe_caithness]

Hey, I am currently without a colour EQ / Vintage modelled EQ that I am happy applying as a Low shelf/peak boost below 150hz.

I have a piece of work currently working on where it lacks any real bottom end, and whats down there is really flat, and when boosted is letting the overall tone down.

Can you recommend and EQ or a couple to check out

One I demoed before and quite liked was the Max Warm by Nomad Factory, I quite enjoyed the top end on it too...

thanks

Joe

[Cellotron]

API 5500 might be worth demoing for your purpose. Filtek Mk3's can be had for cheap and their bottom end is definitely capable of making things "big" as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[macc]

Plugs I assume Joe?

Time you got into UAD really! Neve 1073 (perhaps the SE for mastering) smashes it for exactly that job. Some people like the 1973 by Stillwell, but I felt it was nowhere near as nice as the UAD in direct comparison. Still, worth a look.

Loads of options really, that one just sprung to mind.

[lerone]

Hi mate,

For plugs i'd also check out Tritone digitals' Angeltone (selectable algorithms for each band, eg sontec, maselec, millenia, avalon) which has a nice variation of colour, also hydratone and waves V-series eqs, which i definitely prefer over the UAD neve stuff. Slightly unconventional, but the Nomad factory retrology motown eqs sound awesome.


(ps checked out paris eq, thats a pretty nice eq, good shout.)

[Joe_caithness]

Hi, thanks for the info

yes Plugs for now but also interested in hardware as ever.

1973 I have, found it pretty undetailed really, plus it would be nice to have some control over the Q really as that area is really easy to go with boosts!

You might be right about the UAD Macc, I think they do a laptop version now, but if I remember it's dead expensive!

Might see if I can demo a UAD!

[4damind]

Colouring a bass at mastering is a bad idea. The only thing which can work is using some enhancer like Waves MaxxBass. This is also working at mastering.

The UAD Pultec or Neve 1073 works nice but they are adding not very much color because no nonlinearities (harmonic distortion) is emulated by UA. To have more color you can try T-Racks3 Pultec or also Nebula FX Sampler with the 1073 programs (both also adding harmonics).

[lerone]

Originally Posted by 4damind

Colouring a bass at mastering is a bad idea. The only thing which can work is using some enhancer like Waves MaxxBass. This is also working at mastering.

The UAD Pultec or Neve 1073 works nice but they are adding not very much color because no nonlinearities (harmonic distortion) is emulated by UA. To have more color you can try T-Racks3 Pultec or also Nebula FX Sampler with the 1073 programs (both also adding harmonics).

+1 on the t-racks 3, very nice, infact, nicest pultec emulation out there (in software anyway), But, while I would agree the colouring of the bass at mastering can be very unnecessary and counterproductive, it can be just the ticket with some nice gooey eq, maxbass is not the only option (which is amazing also)

Also, be sure to check out voxengos harmoni q too,

[macc]

Crikey, I'm genuinely astounded that anyone would use MaxxBass on a master. Revolting plugin, to me anyway. And I have spent time with it, btw.

[lerone]

Originally Posted by macc

Crikey, I'm genuinely astounded that anyone would use MaxxBass on a master. Revolting plugin, to me anyway. And I have spent time with it, btw.

Its has its uses, but id prefer not to use it if at all possible (which is 99%of the time)

[4damind]

Originally Posted by macc

Crikey, I'm genuinely astounded that anyone would use MaxxBass on a master. Revolting plugin, to me anyway. And I have spent time with it, btw.

If you spend more time, you will see that MaxxBass can often do the trick. Remember that it was designed for mixing and mastering to enhance the bass response. Sometimes it can work better then pushing the lows with a eq. But: there are no rules! Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
But the best thing is: fix it in the mix

[macc]

Originally Posted by 4damind

If you spend more time, you will see that MaxxBass can often do the trick. Remember that it was designed for mixing and mastering to enhance the bass response.

I know what it is and how it does it - distorting and lowpassing to add mud isn't my idea of 'enhancing bass response'. It just sounds like mud whatever you do with it, unless maybe you run it in parallel or something and eq the result so it doesn't sound awful.

Anyway, to each their own

[Lackatee]

MaxxBass isnt distorting or hipassing your signal champ. Its changing the PERCIEVED bass repsonse by adding fundamental harmonics of your original signal. Its all psycho acoustics dude.. Just your brain playing tricks on ya.

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by Joe_caithness

Hey, I am currently without a colour EQ / Vintage modelled EQ that I am happy applying as a Low shelf/peak boost below 150hz.

I have a piece of work currently working on where it lacks any real bottom end, and whats down there is really flat, and when boosted is letting the overall tone down.

Can you recommend and EQ or a couple to check out

for hardware, at least, and in terms of super clean but with a nicely musical "sound" to it, I love the low band of the NSEQ-f.

Originally Posted by macc

It just sounds like mud whatever you do with it, unless maybe you run it in parallel or something and eq the result so it doesn't sound awful.

Regarding MaxxBass, doesn't the process internally add in parallel with the input (as with the HEDD dsp) rather than replace it? Never reached for it, but surely a very small dose can go a long way?

[4damind]

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

Regarding MaxxBass, doesn't the process internally add in parallel with the input (as with the HEDD dsp) rather than replace it? Never reached for it, but surely a very small dose can go a long way?

Thats right.
Here some points from the manual:


The input signal is split into two parts; the crossover Frequency determines the split point.
High frequencies are merely passed to the output (to be added back to the bass). The bass signal is analyzed
by the MaxxBass processor, which creates a specific series of harmonics of these low frequencies. Since the
dynamics and the loudness of the original bass are duplicated in these harmonics, the result is the most natural-
sounding enhancement of the original bass.

The MaxxBass Harmonics and the Original Bass can be mixed in any proportion at the output.

[macc]

Originally Posted by Lackatee

MaxxBass isnt distorting or hipassing your signal champ. Its changing the PERCIEVED bass repsonse by adding fundamental harmonics of your original signal. Its all psycho acoustics dude.. Just your brain playing tricks on ya.

Sorry sir, but obviously you didn't read what I said. I did say lowpassing, if you read it again. Regarding 'psychoacoustic brain tricks', MaxxBass is not magic. It's just saturation/distortion. Let's look at this bit;

Originally Posted by 4damind

The bass signal is analyzed
by the MaxxBass processor, which creates a specific series of harmonics of these low frequencies. Since the
dynamics and the loudness of the original bass are duplicated in these harmonics

What does that sound like to you? It's a saturator - albeit one with a specific curve to generate specific harmonics, and a lowpass filter/eq. Run a sine wave through it - have a listen. It's not magic, it's just harmonic generation. And how do you generate harmonics?

'Analysed by the maxxbass processor' my hoop...

Universal Audio That might help explain it. Or if you don't have so much time, Universal Audio The big bit in the middle of the page there.

EDIT - and while they're from the UA site, they just happen to be the articles that explain it best. Oh, and with the parallel thing, obviously it is added back to the original, but I'd like much more control over the returned signal as it just sounds muddy IMO.

[Lackatee]

MaxxBass® uses psycho-acoustics to calculate precise harmonics that are related to the fundamental tones of sound. When these harmonics are combined, it creates the effect of lower, deeper frequencies.

Extends perceived bass response by up to 1.5 octaves
Preserves the dynamic range and character off the original bass

[macc]

[lerone]

Originally Posted by macc

indeed.

[macc]

Don’t get me wrong, I think that the whole missing fundamental thing is a useful mix tool, but all this absolute guff from Waves really gets on my wick. You can see it in this thread, people get taken in by what is pure marketing guff.

If you told some relative noob you’re going to put ‘maxxbass’ on their track, their eyes will light up. If you tell them you’re going to set up a parallel channel, run a lowpass on it, distort the signal and eq/filter it and then mix it back into the original, they will probably have a very worried look on their face. The power of marketing.

I would much rather do it myself and be able to tailor the sound (that is, the harmonic distribution) for each given case using a combination of tools than use Maxx bass. Way more flexible and pretty much guaranteed to sound better.

Just my 2p of course, as rabid as I am about it

[4damind]

MaxxBass is primary a tool to get the bass/low end bigger sounding also on small speakersystems.
"MaxxBass creates harmonics that you can add to the signal. These harmonics trick the ear into perceiving low bass frequencies that may not actually be present in the output."

So it can do the trick for the starter of the thread. But I would not use it as a tool to make bass thick or deep, its more a tool that a bass also sound good on smaller speakers.

To get a deep bass you can use a Moogerfooger LP filter (or the UAD Moogfilter), a distortion unit or some similar plugins like Quadrafuzz from Cubase and of course a good EQ There are also other tools like Voxengo LF-Punch or tools to add more subbass/harmonics. But that was not the question and of course not for mastering (this must be done in the mix).

Engineers will sometimes recommend MaxxBass. Its also recommend in the "Mixing Engineers Handbook".
But I will not praise MaxxBass, its only a hint that such tools can sometimes help.
You will also see that people like Bruce Swedien using tools like Waves Renaissance where others say "this tools are crap". If you can create good results with such a tool this doesn't mean that all other people will get the same results.

[macc]

Originally Posted by 4damind

MaxxBass is primary a tool to get the bass/low end bigger sounding also on small speakersystems.
"MaxxBass creates harmonics that you can add to the signal. These harmonics trick the ear into perceiving low bass frequencies that may not actually be present in the output."

So it can do the trick for the starter of the thread. But I would not use it as a tool to make bass thick or deep, its more a tool that a bass also sound good on smaller speakers.

Often at the cost of it sounding good on big systems. So it’s useful if you know that a master is only/mostly going to be played back on laptop speakers – but it inevitably costs in other places.

But that was not the question and of course not for mastering (this must be done in the mix).

Absolutely 100% agreed!

Engineers will sometimes recommend MaxxBass. Its also recommend in the "Mixing Engineers Handbook".
But I will not praise MaxxBass, its only a hint that such tools can sometimes help.
You will also see that people like Bruce Swedien using tools like Waves Renaissance where others say "this tools are crap". If you can create good results with such a tool this doesn't mean that all other people will get the same results.

It’s a useful mix tool for getting that result fast, I agree there. I just wouldn’t put it anywhere near a master. Again, I’d be more inclined to implement the same principle myself, using a combination of plugs/tools in order to tailor the sound better than the ‘preset’ harmonic distribution you get from Maxx bass etc. In fact, I’d do it that way in all cases, mix, master, whatever.

I think we’re agreeing that the principle is useful. My main gripes are that maxxbass isn’t anything like as special as it is made out to be. It’s a distortion/saturator and a lowpass, that’s it. Much better to DIY it if you absolutely need that effect, as the Maxxbass implementation is inflexible and in every case I have ever tried it, muddy sounding.