Giving up or get on with it?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

These are extremely good points, I have witnessed much of this kind of thing over the years and it can be a very trying and sad experience for people who have a deep love and emotional connection with their music, but unrealistic or inappropriate expectations especially when they relate to fashion mismatches :-(

And in some ways this too is an engineer/producer's nightmare as they are definitely open to becoming acclimatised to the stuff they are doing for long periods and get to believe that is great too - when it may not be so great in reality :-(

I have suffered this early on in one very humbling occasion when at the mastering suite the sound of the mixes we had finished the day before were horrific. It seemed incredible that we had actually done this stuff - or even been able to listen to it for long periods, the balance was ok but the whole thing was bathed in ear screaming top end.... Of course I remembered the producer and band asking constantly to spice up and accentuate this and that in the mix, but between us we had added more and more top so slowly that we had become accustomed to it (or even deafened by it)....

Luckily on this occasion we were able to rescue it in the mastering, but this was a stark warning to me and a lesson I never forgot! I became much more careful and resistant to the demands of the clients after that and gently imposed much more control on what was happening in future...

But interestingly top end content remained an issue all the time I was engineering in France, people were obsessed with it somewhat. We had many instances of producers taking away 7.5ips copies to assess at home who complained of a 'lack of top end'. Some of these people had badly aligned machines (especially azimuth), others had speakers with roasted tweeters (presumably from winding up the top end too loud) etc.. And almost everyone if left to their own devices would simply keep on winding up top end until it was unlistenable and add blasted Aphex until the whole thing ended up sounding like an ear-splitting pressure hose - and still feel worried that there was not enough! It was a night mare. It was a battle against the top end mania and I was very often at the sharp end receiving pressure and criticism as I tried (diplomatically) to prevent it :-(

Sounds like the dreaded colombian 'lack of top end' illusion....lol

[Mr.HOLMES]

Thanks for the replies.

I don´t expect that A list clients call me I am not naive I am 35 years old and not a kid anymore.

Oh and yes I tried to take the lead 1000 times.
Sorry guys ...the truth is most bedroom producers think they know it better than you.

I could tell you stories while drinking a beer that would shrink your balls to the size of raisons . Any way as I said it I do not have the reputation I never produced or mixed someone famous and that leads the most customer to disrespect my advises.

Anyway I think my way back to use my studio for music I compose and arrange is the best for me and if someone asks me for mixing I will may do it but the arrangement has to be good.

Thanks to all....


Andreas

[5down1up]

heads up Andreas, i know exactly what your talking about, most important, keep on smiling on your way

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

I don´t expect that A list clients call me I am not naive I am 35 years old and not a kid anymore......(snip) and if someone asks me for mixing I will may do it but the arrangement has to be good.

Yo Andreas, this isn' about age or about: "they don' think i am experienced enough" or "I am not worthy"......u just gotta stand ur ground and if n' when u feel like it, just do the last thing u said...

Take care Bro, and good luck to ya!

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by 5down1up

heads up Andreas, i know exactly what your talking about, most important, keep on smiling on your way

Thanks...Grüße vom Nachbarn PW.

But it is like it is.
And may I can see it more in a positve way like my mentor always told me.

Do your own music make the arrangement working and lay it down for four weeks make the mixdown give to me for mastering and go ahed with the next song.

I feel it is better for me to use the studio I build for what I thought it was made for for my own music ..... may I just ran into a corner in the past 4 years and thought I also have to be great in mixing other peoples stuff.

I do not have to be great in every part of making music.

If I have control over the arrangement I can start mixing during the arranging phase and this will turn out much better.
I can ask friends which are musicians as well and ask them for trumpet or a great rhodes solo....
Yes it is overdubbing but this is better as having nothing in hands.

This feels more right for me instead of mixing C or D level musicians... it just feels wrong for me.

It does not make me a happy man.... it makes me a sad-stressed-person...
And by the way it killed one nice relationship.

Mixing those stuff makes me just nervous.......

So last but not least.

We solved this thorough the internet very anonymous with not knowing each other.
I am very surprised that I met some great humans at GS..... People which understand how I feel....

I hope we will have some more interesting discussions more far away from gear one day?

THANKS TO ALL ....
If I could hug some of you now I would do it but SORRY this is the INTERNET.

THANKS

AO

[RainbowStorm]

Andreas, doing it your own way is a good choice and being true to yourself is important. I think this choice will take you to new inspiring grounds.

I wish you the best!

[johnlink]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

I could tell you stories while drinking a beer that would shrink your balls to the size of raisons .

WARNING: Drinking this beer might shrink your balls.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by johnlink

WARNING: Drinking this beer might shrink your balls.

You know what I just right walk out and go to the late shop and pick up another one....great decision needs to be celebrated.

[bass man]

Great thread and some really deep statements .

Mr. Holmes or Andreas

If i may say something .

First of all big respect for bringing out your fears,problems and feelings out in the public forum like this

Quitting is a good thing to do .That`s a good way to look inside and have a serious conversation with yourself . This is the only ( or one of the best) ways to find out what you really want to do in and with your life and to find out who you really are.
Sometimes we think we can change things or make decisions which are going to change something ,but like my grandpa used to say : " People are making plans but God is making the decisions " . What i want to say is -you cant quit dude ,and the only way to find out that is to quit - to let it go and to find out that quitting is not an option - it never was.
Once you find out this by yourself, you are going to became a hard worker and a brave fighter and that's all you need to accomplish your goal my friend .
Quit now , go away ,take some time off and come back to show us some new great mixes you did .

Cheers

[lucey]

Follow your bliss

The rest dismiss!



(TM)

[Igotsoul4u]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I think a big part of tuning your ears is being around good ears and watching what they do. I assisted many big dog engineers and the close proximity and the fact I can hear it happen from the beginning made a huge difference. I might suggest trying to find someone great to work under for a year or so. Intern 2 days a week or something.

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

Thanks...Grüße vom Nachbarn PW.

Do your own music make the arrangement working and lay it down for four weeks make the mixdown give to me for mastering and go ahed with the next song.

I feel it is better for me to use the studio I build for what I thought it was made for for my own music ..... may I just ran into a corner in the past 4 years and thought I also have to be great in mixing other peoples stuff.

I do not have to be great in every part of making music.

If I have control over the arrangement I can start mixing during the arranging phase and this will turn out much better.
I can ask friends which are musicians as well and ask them for trumpet or a great rhodes solo....
Yes it is overdubbing but this is better as having nothing in hands.

This feels more right for me instead of mixing C or D level musicians... it just feels wrong for me.

It does not make me a happy man.... it makes me a sad-stressed-person...

THANKS

AO

There is also an important side effect of working with musicians of this kind, lack of humbleness will always be an issue when working with them, so instead of being a simple working process it becomes a struggle with their pride and that's simply not fun nor worth anything. In a music production the main vocals are most important, note - more important than the arrangement. When the vocals are not right it will be difficult to succeed with the rest. The producer and the mixer should work closely with the lead vocalist to secure that part, so a lot of focus is necessary there. The mixing engineer can use copy techniques to maximize the quality of the end result, but when a lot of phrases are not good anywhere in the song it needs to be re-recorded instead and that message needs to be successfully communicated to the musicians. What happens when working with musicians of the kind you describe is that it will easily make it difficult for you to focus on the right things, you will easily get off the track, and as a result you will fail with your mixing job and in turn that will be thrown against you by the musicians. It will also be very time consuming, so even when you find your ways of focusing on the right things you will have less chances of being able to succeed.

[imixrecords]

Mixing is like shooting pool... If you keep doing it you probably won't get worse at it!

Listening to other peoples mixes is a double-edge sword. And most likely we are listening to a mastered version of another engineer's mix.

There may be several mixes that work for the record. The hi hat may sound good at an infinite number of places. It's all subjective, and the bottom line is if the clients like it, and show you they like it by returning, then your doing your job!

Regardless of wether one "likes" the mixes of the "big-timers", it cannot be denied that some of these records become hits! Which leads one to ask, what makes a hit record (as related to mixing). The answer to this can be found by listening to hit records with a critical ear rather then a comparative ear.

Much can be learned from mixes one may "hate". I personally can only truly enjoy listening to records that are like 5 years older or more. Anything current i dissect and listen to with a "what's these other guys doin?" attitude. Heck even the old stuff i try to hear the recording and production as much as possible. When the producer says to the keys player "gimmie that Lonnie Liston Smith sound" it's good if the engineer has that sonic reference in his musical memory and is able to apply it.

The situation must be engineered as much as the record. We must be careful not create excuses for losing. A negative attitude will produce a negative result.


At the end of the day if it makes ya happy... do it!

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by imixrecords

Mixing is like shooting pool... If you keep doing it you probably won't get worse at it!

Listening to other peoples mixes is a double-edge sword. And most likely we are listening to a mastered version of another engineer's mix.

I would love to listen to mixes of others but you know I guess people who mixed Clapton or Sting or any other artists which I love wont invite me to their environment to listen to a mix of some album.

Originally Posted by imixrecords

There may be several mixes that work for the record. The hi hat may sound good at an infinite number of places. It's all subjective, and the bottom line is if the clients like it, and show you they like it by returning, then your doing your job!

I ask my self if the experienced people with A level clients also have sometimes trouble during mixing I read somewhere (cant remember who it was) he had to do 13 Versions of the same song for the client until he was satisfied.

Originally Posted by imixrecords

Regardless of wether one "likes" the mixes of the "big-timers", it cannot be denied that some of these records become hits! Which leads one to ask, what makes a hit record (as related to mixing). The answer to this can be found by listening to hit records with a critical ear rather then a comparative ear.

I can answer this question for myself most modern productions I do not like for my ear over-arranged and over-processed in mixing and mastering. Guitar Walls often sound like one frequency mash..... and on top you miss the orchestra where is it? But the famous mixing engineer said in the interview there is an orchestra on top....(you know which mix I mean?)

Originally Posted by imixrecords

At the end of the day if it makes ya happy... do it!

Thats the point I am not happy in the end of the day with C and D level clients. All my energy is soaked out of my body from stupid discussions. And thats the reason why I cant do it anymore.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

If music and mixing are your passion and you cannot think of doing anything else then simply do it and the fame and fortune (metaphorically) will come your way. If you are at all good at what you do then people will seek you out and you will get better and better musicians as your "fame" grows. It is a long road, strewn with many forks, many potholes and many setbacks but if you are passionate in what you are seeking then things will eventually turn out for the best in the end.

Self doubt is always something that is both good and bad. Good because it makes you strive for perfection where there may not be any way to achieve it and bad because it causes you to question your skill set and your path in life.

There are going to be a lot of ups and downs and you will get projects that will have you pulling our your hair and there will be projects that are magical and will go so smoothly you will think you are in heaven. You learn a lot from the hair pulling ones and the GREAT ones are your reward for having to do all the bad ones.

When I started into this business I had 26 years as a classical recording engineer and concert sound engineer at the local college. I got tired of all the politics at the college and started my own business. It was NOT something that was easy to do an I struggled to make ends meet. Some of my clients were GREAT some not so GREAT and I learned a lot that first year. I was passionate about music and mastering and the more clients I did the better I got and the quality of the incoming material went up as I got better. Things were going well and I was able to keep my head above water. The company grew and I was more and more pleased with what I was able to do for clients. Things seemed really good but then the day of the home recording studio hit big time and mixes that were well done were now suddenly in the the minority and many mixes coming in needed a lot of sonic surgery, so I learned how to polish a turd. The next big thing was the loudness race and everyone wanted everything louder than loud so I learned how to do insane levels while still making the material sound good. Then the day of the online mastering studio hit and at the same time every studio in this area started offering mastering as a way to generate more income since the home studio business had taken so much of their recording income. Revenues fell and it was NOT a good time for me.

Now people seemed more concerned with how much something would cost than how good it would sound after mastering. My company has had to diversify and we are now doing on location audio and video recording, voice over work, small run CD and DVD duplication and video production along with the mastering. I am still passionate about the mastering but if I had to depend only on that aspect of my business I would be out of business. You too may have to change directions many times in your life but if you keep your goals clearly in mind then things will work for the better.

I wish the OP only the best and hope that by reading all the really great replies you will reenergize yourself and continue to grow your business and use your self doubt in a positive way.

BEST OF LUCK and keep your chin up....

[Mr.HOLMES]

Thanks Thomas.

it is not only my business there are more things in my live I want to change.

It is not that I would not love to mix musicians and I will do it form time to time but I will hand pick quality over quantity.... in the past I thought I just have to mix everything which comes in. No good idea.

At the time I spoke to some musicians which make a great sound in Funk.
I offered them to do a rough mix of their material and if they are into what they hear we can go further.

But i feel deep inside that mixing is not my main field.
Arranging and Composing or helping Bands to arrange stuff better is the real deal for me.

And to be honest and true it is not a good time for the music industry.
I said it and you said it everybody now thinks he can do it he can make it happen.
But I say to the musicians every hour you try to get the mix sound right in a bad acoustic environment with bad monitors is a wasted and lost hour behind your instrument.

My impression is today musicians are so fascinated by DAWs that they truly believe they can do everything by their self no need for collaboration anymore.

And collaboration is another part I miss since DAWs came available do everyone.
Now we sit behind the DAW alone and isolated from outside creative input. In the old times I where sitting in a studio with other musicians had my Stratocaster with me and when the moment came we just did it and one idea ran the next.

So for me DAWs destroyed creativity when it comes to hand make music.
I can have a complete production out of the box today and the consumer wont hear the difference anyway.

So you see more things have to change I have to go back and collaborate with people...may I collaborate with a real studio doing stuff together and keeping the fun part of production more up.

Talking to humans is better as talking to a flat screen with logic on it.

And yes online mixing and mastering is also separating humans form each other it is something very different someone to meet over the internet or someone to meet in person.

I have some ideas in mind but I have to sort out things but one thing is for sure I regret working with hobbyist musicians from today on....and that decision feels great.

[RainbowStorm]

Andreas, I don't have all the answers. My gut feeling is that you need a more supportive environment where your opinions and knowledge is valued. You need to be with people that love and care, so just dump the crap you have been forced to go through and look for ways of establishing a context where people love and care, where you do things together not only for the sake of the business, but mostly for sharing your gifts in the way God planned. I'm sure this has been a learning experience for you, just take it to the next level now though, trust me, you're worth it!

Your thoughts about going back to "what rocks" is great. In my opinion that's exactly what you need to do, go back to something authentic. Humans are not robots that adapt to artificial sounds/effects the way they adapt to natural sound/effects. You can be a solo artist that do the whole process, but you can also collaborate. I don't want to blame DAWs, because they are great in many ways, but I agree about what you said, when DAWs replace collaboration it sucks a lot, I think it's up to us to just not let that happen.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by RainbowStorm

Andreas, I don't have all the answers. My gut feeling is that you need a more supportive environment where your opinions and knowledge is valued. You need to be with people that love and care, so just dump the crap you have been forced to go through and look for ways of establishing a context where people love and care, where you do things together not only for the sake of the business, but mostly for sharing your gifts in the way God planned. I'm sure this has been a learning experience for you, just take it to the next level now though, trust me, you're worth it!

Your thoughts about going back to "what rocks" is great. In my opinion that's exactly what you need to do, go back to something authentic. Humans are not robots that adapt to artificial sounds/effects the way they adapt to natural sound/effects. You can be a solo artist that do the whole process, but you can also collaborate. I don't want to blame DAWs, because they are great in many ways, but I agree about what you said, when DAWs replace collaboration it sucks a lot, I think it's up to us to just not let that happen.

Your words in Gods ear.
I would love to collaborate with a Berlin based Studio.

But you know what they are all live backed out behind their desks or DAWs.
I asked my mentor if it possible may to do little assistant jobs in a bigger production and his answer was clear.

No Studio needs someone more they get offers like this every day.

Anyway it would be great to collaborate with a more experienced engineer like I am.
I guess we could both learn from each other.

But SHY.

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

Thanks Thomas.
But I say to the musicians every hour you try to get the mix sound right in a bad acoustic environment with bad monitors is a wasted and lost hour behind your instrument.

When it comes to this aspect overall I've made some research, I've been in contact with one of the field's top references (I won't mention details for privacy concerns), but I can guarantee this comes from a pro that really knows his stuff:

- Musicians and their performance.

Even though a bad acoustic environment with bad monitors can seem like a total waste in a recording context, it does not necessarily need to be like that. Actually, much more important for the overall result is the musicians and their performance. I have actually taken this a bit further to conclude that "In a music production the main vocals are most important". From a mixing point of view this becomes interesting, because if the main vocals is most important the mixer needs to apply his stuff aligned with that, as a mixer you could mix in the most perfect acoustic environment with perfect monitors and remove everything that was good about the main vocals. That would not be a very good mix.

[RainbowStorm]

Andreas, I think finding a collaboration partner would be good for you. BTW, you've mentioned your mentor a couple of times, I visited your homepage and it seems like your mentor has meant a lot so far, I also visited your mentor's page. Have you ever thought about finding another mentor, I mean where is this mentor now when you need him the most? In my opinion a mentor is also someone that has solutions to stuff, just telling you there's no point in trying to find collaboration opportunities through assistance engineering proves this guy uses a probability approach, that's not good enough coming from a mentor guiding someone with your experience. Your mentor could very well be the big underlying problem here. Still treat him with love and care, but I think you are ready to get influenced by another mentor now or to take the lead, that's what you need.

[Bubbagump]

All good suggestions... the top two I would focus on is A. a mentor and B. you don't have to mix for every dilbert client that walks through the door. If you are really desparately broke and HAVE to take anyone and anything, thems is the lumps. If you can be selective, do be selective. I persoanlly will listen to source tracks before agreeing to anything. Then if it is a turd polishing expedition, decide if you even want to bother. If yes, tell the client that (with kouth of course) to be sure expectations are set. Setting expectations is 90% of the game many times.