Giving up or get on with it?

[Waltz Mastering]

I think the day you start taking things for granted is the day your screwed.

6 years is nothing...if your serious, get on with it....good luck.

Great Post PF.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

I respectfully disagree. On the contrary, although outwardly confidence can be very useful, I would say that self-doubt and the ability to self-critique is the first step in achieving greatness!

No need to defend yourself, or change the subject. We're not talking inner and outer, we're talking self-directing confidence.

Of course all greatness is full of self-criticism, but the confidence prevails ... so when you go asking strangers what to do with your life, then you're probably a long way from being on track. And if he's truly on track, then he'd bristle at my suggestion ... a back-door confidence builder. As it turned out, I was more right than wrong.

And on that note ... what eq for $2500?

[Bob Olhsson]

I once had an amazing conversation with a very famous musician who I don't feel at liberty to identify. I asked about the band he first became famous in where he had created some utterly amazing musical innovations. His response was "We all actually hated that music and just made up stuff to keep from getting bored. It was really the singer's band and he paid us extremely well."

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by lucey

No need to defend yourself, or change the subject. We're not talking inner and outer, we're talking self-directing confidence.

Of course all greatness is full of self-criticism, but the confidence prevails ... so when you go asking strangers what to do with your life, then you're probably a long way from being on track. And if he's truly on track, then he'd bristle at my suggestion ... a back-door confidence builder. As it turned out, I was more right than wrong.

And on that note ... what eq for $2500?

This is a pretty deep discussion and it's very interesting, as we are reaching the heart of the matter for highly creative people IMVLE.

During the 1970's and 1980's I was in very close proximity to many of the greatest people in our industry (even legends) of those years, both performers, producers and engineers, often living in the same house for months on end. And what I can say absolutely categorically is that all and every one of them suffered from deep and almost permanent confidence crises, very often right on the surface and without any feasible way to hide it from anyone around.

The overwhelming conclusion was that all greatness brings with it a desire for perfection which transcends everything else, money or otherwise - and with that desire for perfection and a strong personal vision one is trying to achieve, also comes the certain knowledge that one can never actually quite achieve it, or at the limit even understand why it's been so successful and so important to them. So they live a life of self doubt, soul searching and dread of spontaneous failure. The more creative the people the worse the fight with confidence and strain they put themselves under, sometimes leading to almost manic superstition when they would start to doubt that success even had anything to do with them at all and search around for random trivia and rituals so as not to 'disturb their seemingly magical run of luck'!! And I have absolutely no doubt what so ever that without all of the above mental and emotional wrangles and an obsession to try and try again, none of these people would have been great.....

One of the biggest mistakes we make is to confuse confidence with pure resolve - and it seems that all too often one even precludes the other!! And the other mistake we make is to assume that great artists are somehow logically aware of what makes them great, when for the most part the whole thing comes from part of the mind that is not controlled by logical perceptions at all - which is of course why is seems so devastatingly fragile to those that posses it....

The fact that someone is prepared to admit this does not invalidate their efforts in the least - IMHO quite the contrary.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

This is a pretty deep discussion and it's very interesting, as we are reaching the heart of the matter for highly creative people IMVLE.

During the 1970's and 1980's I was in very close proximity to many of the greatest people in our industry (even legends) of those years, both performers, producers and engineers, often living in the same house for months on end. And what I can say absolutely categorically is that all and every one of them suffered from deep and almost permanent confidence crises, very often right on the surface and without any feasible way to hide it from anyone around.

The overwhelming conclusion was that all greatness brings with it a desire for perfection which transcends everything else, money or otherwise - and with that desire for perfection and a strong personal vision one is trying to achieve, also comes the certain knowledge that one can never actually quite achieve it, or at the limit even understand why it's been so successful and so important to them. So they live a life of self doubt, soul searching and dread of spontaneous failure. The more creative the people the worse the fight with confidence and strain they put themselves under, sometimes leading to almost manic superstition when they would start to doubt that success even had anything to do with them at all and search around for random trivia and rituals so as not to 'disturb their seemingly magical run of luck'!! And I have absolutely no doubt what so ever that without all of the above mental and emotional wrangles and an obsession to try and try again, none of these people would have been great.....

One of the biggest mistakes we make is to confuse confidence with pure resolve - and it seems that all too often one even precludes the other!! And the other mistake we make is to assume that great artists are somehow logically aware of what makes them great, when for the most part the whole thing comes from part of the mind that is not controlled by logical perceptions at all - which is of course why is seems so devastatingly fragile to those that posses it....

The fact that someone is prepared to admit this does not invalidate their efforts in the least - IMHO quite the contrary.

It is always a pleasure to read your posts Paul. They always demonstrate deep technical knowledge and understanding, an unusually good understanding of human nature and a healthy dose of humanity and sensitivity.

Alistair

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

So this is another one that goes to the mastering department because I have the feeling you are more objective when it comes to questions.

After mixing songs my own as well as for other musicians for six years by now I know I am getting better and better but sometimes when I hear what a nice balance some old dogs in the business are mixing I want to capitulate.

So I am honest to myself at the moment I have the feeling I just overestimate my skills as well as my physical abilities (stress).

I mean I get a good balance and a good mix lets say fair and I know that all is depending on taste.

Myself I do not like some mixes by so called "Big time mixers".

Sometimes I listen to masters and I think WTF comes this subtle but nice impact from....give up man give up man....six wasted years.

So I tried many tacks to create some impact.
Using tube saturation in parallel taking all tracks over to GP9 before mixing (helps both a little)...

But I do not get this impact which I can hear in some mixes done on consoles. (Confession to the mixing with desk lovers?)

At the time I am saving money for a D2B but I have the feeling it is not the gear it is me. I get the feeling gear is an excuse for my skills.

Conclusion:

1. I blame my skills?
2. I blame my gear because it is true you cant get it with 90% ITB?
3. None of this?
You are an idiot the reason is:


Don´t get me wrong I have happy customers but I guess they don´t know the difference what I am talking about here. And you mastering engineers are hearing tons of mixes every day.... so you sure have a opinion to my questions....

If you have good arguments I swear I will give up and sell all the gear.

Andreas

Sell everything you have and buy a ticket to NYC or LA. Knock the doors of the best studios/producers and plead and beg that they let you in to be an assistant. Dedicate the next few years to just learning your craft, at the feet of the very best and absorb everything you can from the professionals in this business who in the end decisions really matter. The professional engineering business has been setup almost from the beginning as an apprenticeship craft, basically its passed down from one professional to the other in the trenches. Also being in on the top sessions helps you have an appreciation and a heads up on how the music business really works and how things get done. Also if you are good it helps you get your name around and in the future build a base for a clientel. Believe me if you have talent as an engineer these people remember and ask for you every time. Just look at all of the top engineers in the business now, they all started under someone else working in the best studios. There are just some things you can't really learn on your own and learn by reading on the internet/magazines.

Lastly working with the best musicians/performers/producers/song writers in the world will help you to see first hand where things really begin. It will help you build a mental catalog which you will carry with you the rest of your engineering life. I recently saw a show that explained why we like certain kinds of sounds and music. Its not just about what you hear, but also about memories and feelings that are triggered with the sounds themselves. The first time you hear a philharmonic in the studio or seeing your favorite singer nailing a song in 2 takes or seeing the dedication of the top producers to get the best performances, burns into your memory for a long time.

I know it takes really big ones to do this in this time in the music business, but trust me its has always been this way. At a point you have to put it all on the line if this is really your passion and you won't settle for anything else. Again engineering, especially mixing as a career is not for everyone. Heck if you took a poll from all of the ME's on this forumn on how much work from engineers they get in that they really admire/like i bet it be a small number. It really is a service industry and if you can't handle the critiques than maybe sitting in a different chair will be better for your sanity in the long run.

[RussMaGuss]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

Good point but great musicians with a great recording session wont come to little Andreas mixing room.....sad but true....

I haven't been around the recording business long, but I'd go out and advertise myself if I had tons of great gear just waiting to be used. Talk to people! Get yourself out there! If you love it, you won't give up.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by RainbowStorm

Creating beautiful music might sometimes be a bit confusing and nerve wracking. Music is a lot about being emotionally attached, focusing on giving the listener a beautiful listening experience. For this to be possible, the infrastructure and context must be properly managed, you need to find good passionate people to work with that care, want to grow in your presence and who do this with the right purpose. Music is a lot about giving, about loving, about caring, about expressing the need of God's forgiveness. Beautiful music takes place when there is truth within the context, when the musicians and technicians are good and caring to each other. Try to look at your situation from this point of view and then ask yourself how you can get there, what do you need to do in order to improve the purpose and business justification. You might be too business driven, you might be in the wrong context, you might work with the wrong people and companies etc... Take this as a learning experience and now focus on something completely different. Go for the real thing in everything, think about how to give the listener a better total experience, so not only mix/master music, mix/master good music that makes good. Be involved in projects that create great experiences. Do what others are afraid to do, do your own thing. I think this will totally change your whole perspective on things. Take the lead.

WOW ......
Great post great thoughts.

Yes you are right may I am working with the wrong bands musicians.
Mixing arrangements which are so la la but far away from great is frustrating too and is not inspiring me.

Thinking about how I can sell myself to better bands musicians film composers etc. is the right question.

And what Paul wrote is may true too.

I know it takes really big ones to do this in this time in the music business, but trust me its has always been this way. At a point you have to put it all on the line if this is really your passion and you won't settle for anything else. Again engineering, especially mixing as a career is not for everyone. Heck if you took a poll from all of the ME's on this forumn on how much work from engineers they get in that they really admire/like i bet it be a small number. It really is a service industry and if you can't handle the critiques than maybe sitting in a different chair will be better for your sanity in the long run.

I can handle critique thats not the point but it gets stressing when clients turn the opinion form "WOW great we love it" into "oh sorry we talked to the producer can you do it again"

Also I believe it does not need NYC studios to get it what I want.
We have here in Berlin big studios as well and the last thing they need is another one who is asking for working for 3,50€ / h. They get tons of people knocking on thier doors all telling them they are the next great engineer they should miss.

It is not my stile to do self-praising in front of someone who is longer than my birth date in it.

I hate people which are telling me things like:

"and believe me I am the greatest you can get doing it"

[It'sJoeAgain]

Paul i am sorry, just so u know i am not in disagreement with anythin u've said old boy...but i think u've taken waht i said a bit outta context, no??....i responded to some of ur lamenting comments... but especially this one:

"But I was only the engineer, not the musicians or the producer, so I could never realise these things in real live sessionsm, only in mixes I sometimes did for fun after everyone else had finished and gone home.."

I kno wah ur talkin about...but those days are long gone though,,,i was givin my two centavos on waht being an engineer was, is (still in some studios) and should be...nowadays with technology and stuff u can switch hats instantly from audio engineer to producer/editor...This isn't about money and fame, i do kno...but many years ago the engineers were really expected to be just good audio engineers, nothing more. Only those who have already won their *wings* could say somethin or interrupt a recording session like a producer could to change or suggest something to the artist/band....but that was expected of these high caliber audio engineers and sometimes that was the reason they were so sought after.....

Also, if we wur talkin about doin pre-production work at some $25/hr studio back in the 80's...i'll have to smile wide, cause i've been there...in fact i could tell the artists anything i wanted, anything...Sooo, i was talkin about some serious recordin sessions where there were 2 engineer assistants, a chief engineer, the producer, the label ppl and the artists...in other words, a whole lot of friggin' ppl...can u imagine this??:

You: Wait! Stop, stop! ..
Producer: What is it, what is IT??
You: I really think the artist should prolong the bridge another 16 bars!
Producer: Hmm....interesting...hmmm...Ok, let's take 15 minute break now so I can think about that enlightening idea and i'll be right back...(he goes to the main office)
A&R Rep: But, if we do so, John Doe who wrote the arrangement for the artist will probably give me a hard time about tha.
Artist: I don' think I can do the melody in staccato another 16 though
Audio Engineer assist. 2: I think We are at the end of the tape and don't have extra left for that section. we'd need to transfer to a new reel.....
Chief Engineer (looking at You): lower threshold another dB for more vocal compression....rewind tape to top of the song.....

(at the main office)

Producer: Who is that f***ing a$$hole u put as assistant tonite?? didn't i ask u to book [resident assist. engineer] for this session??
Studio Manager: Oh so sorry, he is sick this week.....
Producer: Great! I have already wasted one hour with ur replacement engineer because he thinks he can arrange and produce the record better than me...i am already over-budgeted so u f***ing owe me an hour ($350).....

(At the session)

You: Well, I guess we can add it up after we mix and at the editing session! no biggie, i'll do it myself ()...
Drummer: I hate this song man, i don't want to hear the drum parts even for another 4 beats..
You: But maybe I can also edit out you drums intro which i think is about 8 bars too long anyways....
Producer (back in the studio room clapping): Alright people lets get back to the recording, chief engineer can u handle the rest of the session with one assistant? Because our creative audio engineer is bein called from the main office...
Chief Engineer: Yeah..no sweat at all....where is the coffee boy?
You: Oh maybe the studio manager didn't log me in the book for the entire session?? Hmmm....
Producer: Yeah, that's probably it. Bye, bye now and on your way out, tell the coffee boy to get one for me also, black no sugar...."
Guitar Player: Hey man..any beer that i can get??

If u think my story is a bit too fantastic, it is but i wouldn' be surprised if it ever happened before....

My point is and i guess is OT, in the old professional studio sessions, being a creative engineer was somethin only famous engineers could do...if u were startin ur career in a *real* production studio u couldn' be pullin off that kinda sh*t..i mean, some newbs got in doin engineering after serving coffee and being starstruck by major recording stars for a long time, then went on assistin for years. No one would risk being fired for not knowin their place in a recording session, especially after, as i said, bein the one serving the coffee for months..trust me u get conditioned to be the studio's b*tch (). So it has nothing to do with money and fame but knowin the *old* natural order of things which if u ask me about it today, I think there is been such a tremendous change in the industry, not just technologically but mentally that even a jack off inside a bedroom studio (with smelly socks under the bed and all) can now dream or aspire to match the same sound quality and production skills of all the ppl involved in the silly story I conjured up above and what's worse, believes that he actually can (compete).....

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

...Thinking about how I can sell myself to better bands musicians film composers etc. is the right question...

The answer to this is a great word of mouth reputation about what it's like to work with you. This requires exposure and the way you'll get the most exposure is by working as an assistant to the best people.

There's always room for somebody who is a joy to work with. The rise of private studios is going to expand the number of jobs available in the long run but it also makes getting the exposure that will lead to those jobs more difficult.

[inlinenl]

well it's already said enough I guess, but it's great having you on this board Bob Olhsson, your answers and tone are always a treat/joy to read ...

thanks Wim

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

The fact that someone is prepared to admit this (insecurity) does not invalidate their efforts in the least - IMHO quite the contrary.

Oh I agree with you Paul, exposing weakness can be a great sign of strength. I have much experience treating creative people in therapy, and I am one of those people too ... I do get it. My point was that at the end of the day, we decide what to do. And we decide best not from doubt or even by exposing weakness (which is the basis of all great art), but from empowerment ... stemming from our core needs. To honor our own necessity, requires a clear vision that victimization impedes.

So If someone says "should I ____ ? " they're superficially looking for self-knowledge, sympathy, or permission. He got plenty of B, I offered C and some ideas on A that were appreciated. And yet when we are told we should do something we really deep down don't want to do and CAN'T do, like quit something we need on a spiritual level, then we find that our burning need has no master, and we say fuk you ... we do what we need to do anyway. It's like a guy on the ledge considering the jump ... most people go with the sympathy angle, but it's not going to move him. OTOH "would you like help? ... I could push you if you tell me to?" makes an impact.

It sounds crazy, but that discussion is the most empowering one, as it removes the victimization element that is plaguing the person on the ledge, and puts choice and free will back on the table for them, all in a supportive and respectful spirit of human camaraderie, and that's all anyone really wants. This feeling of victimization and lack of connection with our spiritual needs and each other is the main issue, always. The other stuff is practical and timely and variable.

So as you say, all creative people are insecure, and the more creative the more so ... is often true, and in music particularly due to the pop culture environment. I made that point when I posted that Bowie and U2 going uber loud and producing less than timeless masters was perhaps "insecurity" of being too old and out of touch ... and it was met with rousing naysayers! But to free someone from the feeling of victimization is the first and best step to unlocking them to their own answers.

Thus there is never anything wrong with supporting the seemingly 'negative', if done with the right intention. And trust me, it works (for them) every time, unless the person is seriously mentally ill. Which this guy was/is clearly not.

[RTR]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

Good point but great musicians with a great recording session wont come to little Andreas mixing room.....sad but true....

I've been doing this 23 years, started with tape when I wa 12 years old...Im a musician/songwriter first..and here I sit...and every day I think about what Im going to do to live when I get old..Talk about wasted time/life..you ahve a lot of time to still put in, so do it...Me,? I no nothing else but music because I put my life into it..so I am screwed!!! If you love it..keep going!!!

[Waltz Mastering]

From reading the original post and subsequent post by Holmes, it seems a large part of the frustration lies in that you are mixing, a lot of times with out the client present, and when you present the mix to the client the tendency for them is to want to change many elements and the direction of the mixes you've given them. (remix)

What you are trying to do (mixing online) is very hard to do. If you are not seasoned and at the top of your game, you will probably be putting in many hours for not much mula if you are charging by the song instead of by the hour.

Mixing is an art that takes some shedding to get to the point were you can command good income. It been said many times but your room and monitors are more important than any other gear you have when it comes to translating what you are hearing. Translating and interpreting the mix is what you are getting paid to do and that is very important to your success as is your track record. Building a track record takes time and patience, If you are prepared to make the commitment and prepared to devoting hours to learning the craft then you could do well. If you are prepared for the commitment?

[Mr.HOLMES]

Once again thanks to all here for the great input this made me to do some more soul searching over the weekend and I am just writing you back just before I go to sleep.

I think I have talent for a lot of things which are related to music.

But we all know that humans tend to overestimate their self a lot.

That does not mean my mixes translate bad or they sound bad.
In my soul searching phase I just picked up some music and hold some mixes against this. They are good and they can stand up against commercial stuff as long there is no "you have to fix it in the mix" trap. But most files I get, as I wrote you, are fixing it. This makes me nervous and is destroying all the fun of mixing for me. I have heard the song during fixing the failed recording session so many times that the fun part is away.

But what came to my mind that I tend to say:

No longer this drama with clients who think they are STING but they are just poor Joe with limited skills in writing and arranging.

I came to the conclusion that it is false sense to believe that you can make money from other people with two china-mics and PT LE. The modern DAW technique makes many people believe they can do music without any skills.

I am a trained guitar player years of ear training and playing.
Going to workshops of famous players and taking the next challenge.

I can fast separate the wheat from the chaff.
But 95% what I get on the table is just musicians which overestimate their skills.

This brought me to the point that I myself maybe because of modern DAW technique....even if I have a famous mentor... overestimate my skills in mixing as well and I see everything thorough rose collared glasses like my customers.

A lot of customers I have believe a mixing session is doing wonders on the music.
But a S H I T arranged song will stay S H I T even if you put all the nice tools on it.

I even remember a customer who deeply believed the reason was I have no console.

So staying in this business is not a good thing for me because I would have to mix everything what comes to the table even if I hate the music I have to listen to many many times.

For me mixing is just more pure fun if the music is jumping on me and makes my bud shake without that I have done anything done to it.

I do not want to mix anything because of lust for new gear because I have pressure to keep an DAW based mixing room up to date. Maybe this disqualifies me for the job description of an mixing enginner?

I told myself: Ok the most time you made money you just have taken a big part of it an invested this money back into gear. Does this make sense to live for gear to stress yourself with customers which cant separate a major-triad from a perfect-fifth.

Another point comes to my mind.
So many musicians think they can do all alone because of DAWs and the plug industry makes them believe this. I mean I was a long time also into this game gear.... gear is the matter...but no it is not.

Have look into the "So much gear so little time" forum.

So it gets harder and harder to make money from this.
I remember a client who got a good mix from me and he preferred in the end his own mix he had done with Cubase on HIFI speakers in a bad room. His mix was sounding horrible mono no separation between the instruments. No low end that fitted the mix harsh sounding guitars and tons of reverb on the vox.

He wrote me an mail that his mix is so much better.

If such stories are not a reason to think:

WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH TODAY YOUNG PEOPLE MAKING MUSIC?


My decision to quit the studio is not yet in his final curve but things come together in my mind and it is time that I put the rose collared glasses into the trash.

Or to say it as a real Gearslut:

The DAW industry and the improvement in digital audio processing killed good recorded music! Because now everyone believes they are great composers producers mixing and mastering engineers in one person.

And that is exactly what some companies say in their advertises.

Any more questions why I am suffering?


Andreas Oberholz

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by It'sJoeAgain

Paul i am sorry, just so u know i am not in disagreement with anythin u've said old boy...

snipped for brevity...

Also, if we wur talkin about doin pre-production work at some $25/hr studio back in the 80's...i'll have to smile wide, cause i've been there...in fact i could tell the artists anything i wanted, anything...Sooo, i was talkin about some serious recordin sessions where there were 2 engineer assistants, a chief engineer, the producer, the label ppl and the artists...in other words, a whole lot of friggin' ppl...can u imagine this??:

You: Wait! Stop, stop! ..
Producer: What is it, what is IT??
You: I really think the artist should prolong the bridge another 16 bars!
Producer: Hmm....interesting...hmmm...Ok, let's take 15 minute break now so I can think about that enlightening idea and i'll be right back...(he goes to the main office)
A&R Rep: But, if we do so, John Doe who wrote the arrangement for the artist will probably give me a hard time about tha.
Artist: I don' think I can do the melody in staccato another 16 though
Audio Engineer assist. 2: I think We are at the end of the tape and don't have extra left for that section. we'd need to transfer to a new reel.....
Chief Engineer (looking at You): lower threshold another dB for more vocal compression....rewind tape to top of the song.....

(at the main office)

Producer: Who is that f***ing a$$hole u put as assistant tonite?? didn't i ask u to book [resident assist. engineer] for this session??
Studio Manager: Oh so sorry, he is sick this week.....
Producer: Great! I have already wasted one hour with ur replacement engineer because he thinks he can arrange and produce the record better than me...i am already over-budgeted so u f***ing owe me an hour ($350).....

(At the session)

You: Well, I guess we can add it up after we mix and at the editing session! no biggie, i'll do it myself ()...
Drummer: I hate this song man, i don't want to hear the drum parts even for another 4 beats..
You: But maybe I can also edit out you drums intro which i think is about 8 bars too long anyways....
Producer (back in the studio room clapping): Alright people lets get back to the recording, chief engineer can u handle the rest of the session with one assistant? Because our creative audio engineer is bein called from the main office...
Chief Engineer: Yeah..no sweat at all....where is the coffee boy?
You: Oh maybe the studio manager didn't log me in the book for the entire session?? Hmmm....
Producer: Yeah, that's probably it. Bye, bye now and on your way out, tell the coffee boy to get one for me also, black no sugar...."
Guitar Player: Hey man..any beer that i can get??

If u think my story is a bit too fantastic, it is but i wouldn' be surprised if it ever happened before....

LOL @ this story. I have been involved in much much worse than that, some unimaginable scenes, too many to even recount here. Perhaps this is why I was the only one killing myself laughing when 'This is Spinal Tap' came on the local cinema?!! That film was actually a tame and sanitised version of much worse that happens in real life...

The point was being humble and 'knowing your place'. Trouble is that your place was a completely dynamic thing that changed at a whim depending on what happened from hour to hour. You could go from being a mere coffee provider to a trusted savant in a flash - hell you could even end up playing producer and engineer because the chief engineer had buggered off to save himself in the wee small hours and the producer had messed off in despair after an argument with the band management. In one such episode I was dragged out of bed to engineer all night long because having driven the engineer away by awful abuse, the drug crazed Band threatened to wreck the studio unless a replacement was dragged in!! Utter chaos is a good way to describe what went on much of the time. But whatever happened you had to have the skill and presence of mind to respond appropriately - because however macabre and unsettling things had become, they were still the artists and your job was to somehow cut through the madness in a total unnoticeable and level headed way so that things actually got done - one way or another :-)

I probably managed the vast majority of the time, but the strain could be immense. I too did the unthinkable and left a remote session in London without warning. I just went up the road to get some cigarettes and for some reason I just kept walking and walking in a daze until I reached the train station - got on the train back to head office in Oxfordshire - walked in and offered to quit, because I just couldn't stand it any more. And the ironic thing was that a year later another engineer working with the same band phoned me at 10pm in desperation saying he simply couldn't stand it anymore and was going home right then regardless - not caring if he lost his job. And to save the situation I had to take his place and cover for him! Amazing how life comes around....

However in the middle of what seems like chaos and histrionics great things can and indeed do occur. I was there when a whole new era of pop music and recording/mixing technique was created (quite spontaneously) by an assistant engineer working with the clients when their chief engineer had to drop out due to illness - they were relegated to an unfinished studio, using a console that was still the subject of major controversy and unresolved and bitter splits in the organisation...

Who was in this thread who said 'follow your heart and don't be afraid to attempt the unthinkable and do what no one else would ever think of'?

These words from rainbowstorm's post is probably the best advice you will ever get:

"Do what others are afraid to do, do your own thing. I think this will totally change your whole perspective on things. Take the lead."

[Mr.HOLMES]

If only 50% of the above story is true than I am the wrong guy for it.

I just had a client here a few minutes ago interested in mixing down some electronically stuff.

He told me he thinks it needs tape saturation and I offered him to do it.

Than he showed me some horrible rough mixes.
The discussion was mainly in his head about tape and not about how the mix has to sound in general....my impression was he believed that tape is doing wonders on the music.

In the end he told me he needs a console and all the expensive outboard gear to make his music vibe and asking me if I know such a place in Berlin....

I showed him the website of the LOW SWING STUDIO.

He can clearly read on my website that I do not use a console that I love mixing ITB.

OK in the end of the conversation he asked me if I think he can afford a fully equipped analogue studio. I told him my guessed price range and he told me he cant afford it.

I offered him to do a mix with me here together and we can see if that is what he wants. I told him that he is expecting too much from tape and that it needs to be mixed good in the first run.

So sometimes I get the impression that the audio equipment is an excuse for the musicians for hard work on a well arranged tune. He had 8 tracks with him 6 tracks where just stupid electronically horrible sounds clustered together without any musically progression in it.

Vocals which are not singing but shouting all the time.

I am still amused a little bit about that 23 year old british guy.
It verifies my impression of easy-life-musicians which lost their self critique in every way and are not willed to bring a thing to an end.

Sorry guys I think I am out of this game ... I feel too old for this with 34 years.... it`s more Kindergarden as serious musicians.

I start hating this kind of musicians thinking they are the middle point of the earth and their music deserves Peter Gabriel s Real World Studio....for free for sure because they are the next upcoming STAR!!!

[inlinenl]

are you the black guy or the white one ...
your website is submitting a very confusing message ...
if you dont get the work .. don't blame the others .... change/adapt/try/suffer/fail and move on .... but never blame the others ... it's all your game ...
now if you want to mix ... build/get a mix room ....
maybe focus on what your good at ... guitar music ?????

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Almost everyday I get people coming to me to master their material. Some of what they bring is very good - some not so good. A lot of people have not really learned how to critically listen. They tend to think that their material is better than it really is. In some cases they have worked on their material for weeks. months or even years and to them it sounds perfect. They don't let anyone else hear it, they don't collaborate with other musicians and they live in a musical vacuum with their material being their sole musical benchmark. or they may play their music for friends and loved ones who are telling them that it sounds great because that is what the performer wants to hear.

I am sometimes amazed when a person brings in their material and some reference material. Their material sounds nothing like what the reference maaterial but they have a vision that some how it will, after it is mastered, sound just like it.

Recently I got in 24 songs from an artist. They were good meaningful songs that were not well played, were not well recorded and were not well mixed. The drummer could not hold a steady beat if his life depended on it. The vocals all had flanging and phasing applied to them. the guitar overdubs had been done in such a way that they were a blurry mess and the whole mix had been way over eq'd and over processed. Besides the guitars and the percussion there were a lot of synths that had been added over the mix. It was a mess.

The material he brought in that he wants it to sound like was from the band Nickelback. I listened to my clients material and then to the Nickelback CD and there is absolutely NO SIMILARITIES between them other than they are both music.

My client says that what he wants is his material to sound EXACTLY LIKE Nickelback which, even if I was a magician, I could not do. They were so far apart it was like the difference between a National Geographic color photograph and something that was done with a pin hole camera made out of a shoe box in B&W. There was NO WAY that I was ever going to pull this off. I talked to my client and told him the problems.

In his mind he could not comprehend that his material did not sound like Nickelback and even when I played them in succession he could not hear the difference. He had convinced himself that his material sounded just like Nickelback and could not understand my reluctance to work on it.

After doing some preliminary mastering I gave him the CDs to listen to and he was not pleased. It did not sound like what he thought it should sound like and was about to pull the plug on the whole process. I sat down with him and explained the facts of life and told him that instead of me trying to make him sound like Nickelback how about if I just made his material sound the best that it could be. At first he did not want to go down that road but finally decided to let me try. I did what I could, I made his stuff sound 100% better and in the end he was pleased.

It was not Nickelback but it was his own material and it sounded much better. I made some suggestions about the mix and told him that if he wanted to make it sound the best that he should SERIOUSLY think about redoing the recording and mixing from the ground up. The songs were really good it was the presentation that sucked.

Sometimes when you do mixing or mastering you have to understand that the person you are working with it not hearing what is really there and is hearing THEIR material with a built in filter in their head which is telling them that the stuff sounds GREAT when it reality it sounds really bad. This is often strengthened by loved ones and friends who tell the person that their material sounds GREAT because they know that is what the musician wants to hear.

Best of luck and don't give up....

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Almost everyday I get people coming to me to master their material.

snipped for brevity....

Sometimes when you do mixing or mastering you have to understand that the person you are working with it not hearing what is really there and is hearing THEIR material with a built in filter in their head which is telling them that the stuff sounds GREAT when it reality it sounds really bad. This is often strengthened by loved ones and friends who tell the person that their material sounds GREAT because they know that is what the musician wants to hear.

Best of luck and don't give up....

These are extremely good points, I have witnessed much of this kind of thing over the years and it can be a very trying and sad experience for people who have a deep love and emotional connection with their music, but unrealistic or inappropriate expectations especially when they relate to fashion mismatches :-(

And in some ways this too is an engineer/producer's nightmare as they are definitely open to becoming acclimatised to the stuff they are doing for long periods and get to believe that is great too - when it may not be so great in reality :-(

I have suffered this early on in one very humbling occasion when at the mastering suite the sound of the mixes we had finished the day before were horrific. It seemed incredible that we had actually done this stuff - or even been able to listen to it for long periods, the balance was ok but the whole thing was bathed in ear screaming top end.... Of course I remembered the producer and band asking constantly to spice up and accentuate this and that in the mix, but between us we had added more and more top so slowly that we had become accustomed to it (or even deafened by it)....

Luckily on this occasion we were able to rescue it in the mastering, but this was a stark warning to me and a lesson I never forgot! I became much more careful and resistant to the demands of the clients after that and gently imposed much more control on what was happening in future...

But interestingly top end content remained an issue all the time I was engineering in France, people were obsessed with it somewhat. We had many instances of producers taking away 7.5ips copies to assess at home who complained of a 'lack of top end'. Some of these people had badly aligned machines (especially azimuth), others had speakers with roasted tweeters (presumably from winding up the top end too loud) etc.. And almost everyone if left to their own devices would simply keep on winding up top end until it was unlistenable and add blasted Aphex until the whole thing ended up sounding like an ear-splitting pressure hose - and still feel worried that there was not enough! It was a night mare. It was a battle against the top end mania and I was very often at the sharp end receiving pressure and criticism as I tried (diplomatically) to prevent it :-(

[Table Of Tone]

I think you need to be happy!
If it's getting to ya, be more selective over what you will work on and what you won't!

You may have to go part time to do this but you're not gonna get anywhere either in the way of enjoying it or moving onto better stuff, if you agree to mix s**t recordings all the time.
Sometimes you need to distance yourself from something in order to get properly fresh and on the ball again.

I love mastering and I wanna continue to do so!
Thats why I'm only part time these days.

I hate having to cut rubbish recordings or even worse, bad performances.
It's good practice and I've done a lot of it but it's NOT the way forward and it's not gonna put me on any map!

I design tube guitar amps as my main job.
It gives me the income to be able to say "I don't wanna cut your record because it's not very good!"
When I get a great tune in though, it gives me a lot of pleasure mastering it!

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

These are extremely good points, I have witnessed much of this kind of thing over the years and it can be a very trying and sad experience for people who have a deep love and emotional connection with their music, but unrealistic or inappropriate expectations especially when they relate to fashion mismatches :-((

When u say that... i believe u, cause u are someone whose posts can be both truly anecdotal as well as truly scientific....anyone really has something to learn from u, no doubt about that......

[Peakly]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

The overwhelming conclusion was that all greatness brings with it a desire for perfection which transcends everything else, money or otherwise - and with that desire for perfection and a strong personal vision one is trying to achieve, also comes the certain knowledge that one can never actually quite achieve it, or at the limit even understand why it's been so successful and so important to them. So they live a life of self doubt, soul searching and dread of spontaneous failure. The more creative the people the worse the fight with confidence and strain they put themselves under, sometimes leading to almost manic superstition when they would start to doubt that success even had anything to do with them at all and search around for random trivia and rituals so as not to 'disturb their seemingly magical run of luck'!! And I have absolutely no doubt what so ever that without all of the above mental and emotional wrangles and an obsession to try and try again, none of these people would have been great.....

Great posts Paul. Very insightful looks inside the mind of an artist.

Mychal

[recall]

Andreas, I feel for you, but I also think you need to help your clients more. Perhaps you could factor this into a new structure. You could assess your clients recordings BEFORE you mix them, give them your input on how they could improve the songs+recordings. In other words make it easier for them to get better.

This is the best way to get your feet higher up the ladder as word will spread that you are helping musicians improve.

Perhaps devote more time to your guitar playing. Balance out the turd polishing with creating your own music, this in turn will make you enjoy music more and become more enthused by it.

You don't have to stick with your current production model, perhaps try and diversify - teach guitar, write music for TV+Film (you said you have a contact in this field)

It sounds to me like you've had one too many "resuce jobs" through the door, and you need more balance to your projects. Try finding music you DO like in your region and offer to record/mix a song for them for free and see what comes from that.

[heathen]

I find there is always a certain drudgery about recording and mixing for lame artists, they can leave you questioning your own skills because you don't like what you're hearing. Thennnn every once in a while an absolute gem of a production comes in the door and it makes it all worthwhile again, especially when you sit back and love what you hear.

I think I've had 1 project like this in the last 5 years, seriously, was just about to chuck it all in myself, then that production came through the door and got me hungrier than ever, because it sounds great and left me satisfied as well as the artist.

Now go and buy a nice set of Telefunken or Neumann eq's and cheer up!

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

WOW ......
Great post great thoughts.

Yes you are right may I am working with the wrong bands musicians.
Mixing arrangements which are so la la but far away from great is frustrating too and is not inspiring me.

Kind of you to give me that feedback, thanks! I think we all want to have great experiences in life. Personally I'm currently striving to get past and beoynd quality in traditional terms, towards something truly meeningful and loving, past and beoynd music and traditional experiences of music.

I strongly feel music is a very powerful tool in growing as a person, creating and sharing love, so I want to approach music from that perspective, I want that God touches and I want that a lot, making an impact through that experience, because it's a blessing to be able to make that change, to feel that life is lived the way it was meant and feel the presence of God, which creates the ultimate experiences.

In order to get there I think one needs to re-think, re-evaluate, pray and live life passionately, in the best possible way. Most important is to evaluate the current focus and what needs to be done about that to make change in daily decisions. As loving and caring becomes your innermost focus and instinct in dealing with decisions, you start to do things you otherwise would not do based on these priority changes, which in turns creates other kinds of eyes, other kinds of experiences, other kinds of actions, changes and results, which are now aligned with God's path for you and others in life towards heaven. For instance, you might not be in a position that lets you take actions based on that focus, maybe you are stuck with producing music for artists that do not make music that is good to others. That would make you step out of that context, into a position that is supportive in your way of choosing your actions based on your priorities. You might also approach things like quality a lot different. In the past you didn't care about a lot of things, but as you automatically become a more caring person you now approach things differently. For instance, you start looking at companies you buy equipment from, what are your relationships with these, how are these contributing to high quality equipment and service at a fair price? All of a sudden you might discover that you have chosen to work with people that don't love and care, so you will never get your full potential out of using that equipment or using that channel as your primary source of premium quality products and services. So you replace that with somebody that is not like that. Also, on a personal level you naturally start replacing things that satisfies you, with things that satisfies others. For instance, being overweight by not caring about your health satisfies you in the short term by allowing yourself to eat bad food that you "love", but it does not satisfy others when dying pre-maturely from a heart attack, so all of a sudden this change of focus start impacting your whole life. This is creating effects of positive synergy, which will be supportive as you encounter serious challenges.

These kinds of actions require a kind of personal leadership, a lot of courage and dealing with fears by heading this way alone. But being alone like this is actually good, because you turn to God for help and I believe with that comes a stronger spiritual bond that takes you and others forward towards your mission, towards heaven. At some point you will be "picked", by love, from earth, because you failed with or reached your mission on earth. When you fail you will be reborn out of love, because God is forgiving. Reaching your mission will be the ultimate experience, that's why I decided to change approach and direction in this life, especially with music that has always been very close to my heart.

I hope you will find your way to a good solution, have hope and take the lead. Please PM me for additional advice etc.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Wohhhhha some more great posts here!!

So I see this topic is touching many engineers.

And yes I had also clients which wanted to sound like: XYZ.

I always try to explain them that this is not possible.
I had a client with a Blues band he wanted to sound like Stevie Ray Vaughan.

I tried to explain him that Stevie is a different person with a different history in his live and that he is unique like my client and that his stile of playing is very different from Stevie´s stile and that is the main reason why it after a mix down would not sound like SRV and Double Trouble.

So my pain is that when I explain the clients that the mixing or the mastering does not do wonders and that the SONG the ARRANGEMENT is the hardest part which have to be done right..
I see in 98% of the cases a blank stare.

Yes I offer my clients to help them with the arrangement but most clients think they have done it right already and saying them it is not well arranged is for them some kind of affront.
I ask myself WHY the hell do they think they are the greatest arrangers in the world. Why don`t they collaborate with people arranging for over two decades.

Myself I am doing music for over 18 years now and I still today ask friends what do they think about my arrangements and take some critics until it feels all-right for me and other listeners.

So I ask myself why do people not understand that a DAWs with all the nice software-instruments is not a guarantee for great music.
Great music still has to be great composed and arranged.

Letting all the recording stuff aside
I could live with bad recorded stuff and make it sound better in the mixing but I cant live with people chiming in my room with music which just is NOISE....

And I mean NOISE some synths and some base drums no order no parts no nothing....BUT:

"YOU KNOW WE ARE ELECTRONIC MUSICIANS WE WANT TO SOUND LIKE THE PRODIGY CAN YOU DO THIS?"

Sorry guys DAWs are for many people an excuse not to learn the skills properly.
And I am not kidding you this Quote above I heard 3 years ago from a customer.

So I think I found my way I will go more in the advert part with my studio and not doing this as a mixing geek anymore.
It is time to use my studio to create music coming back to my roots.... this is much more fun and I earn more money with one single branding as with mixing one album.

Andreas

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

Wohhhhha some more great posts here!!

I always try to explain them that this is not possible.
I had a client with a Blues band he wanted to sound like Stevie Ray Vaughan.

So my pain is that when I explain the clients that the mixing or the mastering does not do wonders and that the SONG the ARRANGEMENT is the hardest part which have to be done right..
I see in 98% of the cases a blank stare.

Yes I offer my clients to help them with the arrangement but most clients think they have done it right already and saying them it is not well arranged is for them some kind of affront.
I ask myself WHY the hell do they think they are the greatest arrangers in the world. Why don`t they collaborate with people arranging for over two decades.

Letting all the recording stuff aside
I could live with bad recorded stuff and make it sound better in the mixing but I cant live with people chiming in my room with music which just is NOISE....

And I mean NOISE some synths and some base drums no order no parts no nothing....BUT:

So I think I found my way I will go more in the advert part with my studio and not doing this as a mixing geek anymore.
It is time to use my studio to create music coming back to my roots.... this is much more fun and I earn more money with one single branding as with mixing one album.

Andreas

Excuse me if I might sound a bit harsh in some of the sentences in this reply. One thing that would help in your case is that you take control of these kinds of situations. I've mentioned it a couple of times, how important it is to take the lead. How you do that and what it exactly means can be very difficult to pin-point with a randomly chosen situation, but some general guidelines come to my mind. Instead of looking at the problem like it is the customer who doesn't get it, please understand that at this point you own this problem, whoever is the cause, you own it, because you've decided to go this specific route and things got messed up and now it messes up your situation. Within your context, with this customer, you have done a number of things that were not consistent against yourself and the customer, through your actions you have not teached the customer how you think, what you expect from the customer, what he should expect and so on. You have probably at some point lost control and in return the customer has started to become sceptic about your abilities. You mentioned several times that it is the customer who asks questions. This is a typical sign that at this point it is the customer who is in charge of this situation. What you should do about that is in my point of view very straight forward: Take the lead. You do that by doing like this:

1. Customer asks hard-to-answer questions and you get frustrated, for instance he asks why it doesn't sound like Stevie Ray Vaughan when you apply your job, even though the customer wants that.
2. You don't answer that question, because since the customer doesn't understand why he asks that question in the first place he will never understand what the answer/explanation means either, instead you ask an even more difficult question back: "Why is sounding not like Stevie Ray Vaughan your biggest problem?"
3. The customer answers something that is false, for instance: "Our band wants to sound a lot like Stevie Ray Vaughan, we feel that it is critical to the band's success".
4. At this point you are in charge of the situation and to prove that you now really own a much bigger problem than the customer could ever understand at this point but have control over the situation, you say: "No".
5. That will feel surprising to the customer, because he is used to have control, not anymore, because now you said something that he never expected, it is against the nature of having control to feel that way, now the customer is not really sure.
6. So you say no and look into their eyes shortly, maybe you touch his shoulder at the same time to prove that you are not hostile at this point. You then continue:
"It does not work like that, becase [you explain true answer]".
7. At this point some customers get it, while others don't get it yet. When the customer still doesn't get it you ask why questions repeatedly until the customer cannot answer your question. When that happens it's often a definitive turning point.
8. Let's say at some point you still find yourself in a difficult argumentation situation that you are stuck with. At that point you must offer the customer two options to act on, both resulting in a solution to this situation. 9 times out of 10 the customer will choose one of these and the situation is solved. When that still doesn't work you are slowly approaching a long term trap by owning this problem, so now you need to get rid of it. At that point you must tell the customer: "At this point I realise I'm not ready to collaborate with you, maybe in the future, but at this present moment it does not feel like it's the right thing to do for me". And when it has gone this far, there is no mercy to that, this is the final proof that you were always in charge of the situation, you took the lead and it worked. You take this action because this is not a customer that contributes with love, humbleness and caring even though you offer your most sincere abilities of managing this situation and meeting the customer's expectations, you must get rid of those clients. I bet that the lyrics this band in that case were trying to express was not very good at all, there were probably a lot of unnecessary and confusing messages everywhere that would have never worked anyway. Please try to look at it from this point of view, if you act on the wrong top priority everyone will suffer, you, the band and the audience. So it's not a good thing. Taking the lead also means being the teacher. When somebody does something that is wrong you respond immediately to that. And when someone or something forces you to act in the wrong way, you don't let that happen. Taking the lead also means taking the costs of that, calculate that you will encounter resistance, but this is who you are and what you believe in, you have the right to be loving and caring and to take actions based on that. Another tip is to not only be reactive throughout the process, rather, do things that nothing forced you to do, for instance check the lyrics before you approve the clients. If the core message is wrong it could mess up your reputation, the situations you describe typically occur when clients are really not ready to do something professional at that point. It's important to understand the implications of choosing to not see that reality. Readiness is extremely important.

Always maintain a loving approach to the customer, even when you don't offer what the customer wants you should offer optional things that might guide the customer towards a future team work or a nice solution on their own. Make sure that the customer understands that you want to help everyone, especially the customer and that you care. It should not be a very bad experience for anyone, rather, tell the customer that this was a critical step and that it's very common that you choose this route during these kinds of circumstances, you can also tell a story about an example of a client (without mentioning the client's name) you dealt with in this way and that it turned out to be the most important action taken to the success of that band. Maintain a professional attitude.

[It'sJoeAgain]

i think soundin' like so n' so is the least of Holmes' problems! when u do get involved with a lunatic that wants to match sound n' loudness of certain group or artist, u need to explain that all u can guarantee is that you'll make him sound better than the poo he submitted as his original mix...that u will do ur best to give him a more balanced mix n' closer to what his main goal is/was.....more often than not when doin mixin online, ur gonna find that the client/guy at the other end is listening with these piece of sh*t speakers and wants u to move a bass fader or the strings sound levels up or down while in ur expensive monitors all sounds perfectly balanced...

or when there is some kinda a group decision...some of those musician members want n' ask their parts louder regardless of any mix balance consideration or how it sounds on ur professional expensive monitors.....

U should always ask: "what do you use to hear the mix i sent u?".. if they go :"my headphones are Sony XXX" ..then u go; "really? well i use $4,000 monitors so i know u are wrong about changing the level of (fill with track part)!".....or if they say: "I use NS-10s which are professional".... U can say: "well i use *XX-XX* which are more than 10 times the cost and accuracy of ur piece a crap, plus i have a real monitoring environment" ...Naturally u wouldn' want to be as brutally honest like me..

If they still givin u bullsh*t for ur work, charge them extra for the time u put into their mixes....a good disclaimer on your site is a good idea if not a necessity when doing mixes for bedroom producers or small budget labels. Expect more ego crap from this level of clientele than even the most real *serious* musician/bands out there....

My good friend engineer (name i am not at liberty to mention) who works regularly with big names in the industry always tells me that A-list clientele is the most down to earth type of clientele u'll ever get and want to wok with ever (there a few nut jobs out there too though, but not so much mixing and mastering techncal issues to deal wit, more like too many takes on the same track to choose from, they're late for sessions, too stone, etc) ....just don' expect to have A-List artists to find u on the web or callin you anytime soon Holmes....my2C

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I hate everything I do for about five years.

LOL