Thriller mastering

[AntManBee]

I realise that this has been discussed before but, following the passing of Michael Jackson, I've been listening to Thriller again & just obtained the original 1982 CD pressing. Comparing it with the 2001 remastering is shocking!

The 2001 CD is clipped, distorted, compressed and EQ'd in a way that makes it deeply unpleasant to listen to, whereas the 1982 CD has dynamic range, the lyrics are audible, the drums sound great (Billie Jean's drums are ruined by the 2001 mastering), there's generally less bottom end lending clarity to the whole record - and there's audible tape hiss (yes!).

It's a real shame that such a well recorded record should be generally available now only in such a terrible edition.

Matt

[Spartacus]

+10 !

[JPeters86]

[KyleDiSanto]

Its unfortunate that Labels go back to Re-Master things so that the records of the past can "compete" and be "up to par" with the loudness and sound of records today.

I feel that at this point...Commercial music is becoming less and less about the music and more about the "product" and its placement...

[Sunim Koria]

I definitely second the comment about the opening to Billie Jean. The defining characteristic of that ridiculously simple 8-beat drum intro is all about Ndugu's feel and groove, and the remaster just killed it. Without it that very famous intro means absolutely nothing. Damn shame.

SK

[wado1942]

Ah man, I always LOVED the sound of Billie Jean. That laid back drum beat is incredible. You can hear he's not playing very hard and that leaves this vibe you don't hear anywhere.
It's a shame they'd ruin it with a bunch of limiting.

[OMNIFEX]

Originally Posted by wado1942

Ah man, I always LOVED the sound of Billie Jean. That laid back drum beat is incredible. You can hear he's not playing very hard and that leaves this vibe you don't hear anywhere.
It's a shame they'd ruin it with a bunch of limiting.

It's funny you mentioned Billie Jean considering I am listening to it right now.

I am estimating - 15 dB on average and - 3 dB on peaks. Dynamics is the forgotten art that many tend to overlook.


Cheers!

[chironomidae]

I think there is a post like this for every remaster ever released.

[Adam Dempsey]

I've not compared them but it's possible the first ('82) CD edition was from a second generation, EQ'd-for-vinyl, tape. Anyone here know? Apparently its credits state 'DDD' which is clearly wrong given that Billie Jean's rhythm tracks were recorded to 16 track analogue.

There's a big diff between the Thriller special edition version (2001) and its tracks on the HIStory compilation. That was revealed to us in a blind test when we were assessing the Lavry Gold DA 924. (The latter sounded comparatively further smeared, distortion more prevalent, more background noise).

Some great background on the recording & mixing of Billie Jean is here.

Also this from the recording/mixing engineer, Bruce Swedien:

When we did the re-issues of "Off-The-Wall" and "Thriller" I was present at the mastering sessions with my old pal Bernie Grundman. The re-issue masters were made with my original mixes from the origiinal 1/2" master tapes. I think they sound rather good...

I do think the re-issue CD's reflect what I had in mind originally with my mixes better than the original releases on 12 inch vinyl....

I love the way the strings seem to reach out beyond the stereo field. This track is also an epic example of the strength of a great arrangement.

It seems the dynamic range of the orig issue on CD may override any benefits of the more recent transfers...

[bcgood]

I bought the #1's CD and it sounds pretty bad considering the originals are esteemed as gr8 pillars of sonic engineering achievement. The drums on BJ sound kind of weak and lifeless, especially the kick. Sounds pretty wimpy. The highs are irritating and I honestly can't listen to more than a minute of any of the songs on that loud re-master.

On the other hand my original CD of Off the Wall sounds amazing.

[Darius van H]

I also don't like the new Thriller. Too pushy.

A bit like a drunk Angelina Jolie trying to chat me up at a bus-stop......it just doesn't make any sense.

[thethrillfactor]

Would have loved to listen to the surround version that Mick G did of Thriller:

NY Metro Report: Will We Ever Hear Thriller in Surround?

Someone that heard it said it was totally bananas!!!

[AntManBee]

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

I've not compared them but it's possible the first ('82) CD edition was from a second generation, EQ'd-for-vinyl, tape. Anyone here know? Apparently its credits state 'DDD' which is clearly wrong given that Billie Jean's rhythm tracks were recorded to 16 track analogue.

There's a big diff between the Thriller special edition version (2001) and it tracks on the History compilation. That was revealed to us in a blind test when we were assessing the Lavry Gold DA 924.

Some great background on the recording & mixing of Billie Jean is here.

Also this from the recording/mixing engineer, Bruce Swedien:

"When we did the re-issues of "Off-The-Wall" and "Thriller" I was present at the mastering sessions with my old pal Bernie Grundman. The re-issue masters were made with my original mixes from the origiinal 1/2" master tapes. I think they sound rather good...

I do think the re-issue CD's reflect what I had in mind originally with my mixes better than the original releases on 12 inch vinyl...."

I love the way the strings seem to reach out beyond the stereo field. This track is also an epic example of the strength of a great arrangement.

But Bruce Swedien doesn't say which remaster he was present for & he can't mean the 2001 special edition, as it's so bad. Does anyone know & has anyone compared it to the original '82 version?

The 2001 edition is particularly ruinous to the drums - even the Linn sounds over-compressed, and Billie Jean has completely lost it's bounce & lightness of touch.

[fondone]

just a question....

did bernie grundmann or that marino guy doth both the original mastering and the remaster?

[JPeters86]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

I also don't like the new Thriller. Too pushy.

A bit like a drunk Angelina Jolie trying to chat me up at a bus-stop......it just doesn't make any sense.

Now that's a metaphor

[rskjr]

on Billie Jean there's a blip at 3:45-3:46 on my MP3 copies of the 1982, 2001, and 2008 releases... it almost seems like it could be a very strange vocal "uh", but it sounds like an artifact. is that on the record? what is it?

[lerone]

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

Its unfortunate that Labels go back to Re-Master things so that the records of the past can "compete" and be "up to par" with the loudness and sound of records today.

I feel that at this point...Commercial music is becoming less and less about the music and more about the "product" and its placement...

Couldn't agree more mate.. Its a f*cking ridiculous practice, what really is the need eh? When a client wants a ridiculously loud record, I try and play really heavily clipped / shredded mix alongside a well recorded dynamic master at the same apparent loudness. Usually results in a few extra dbs of dynamic range. More engineers need to start doing this, giving a practical demonstration of the harsh side effects of the loudness war is the only way to get a good result that will stand the test of time.

[narcoman]

The early CD version sounds terrible too. I prefer the re-issue.

the vinyl version from "back in da day" works for me......

[wado1942]

on Billie Jean there's a blip at 3:45-3:46 on my MP3 copies of the 1982, 2001, and 2008 releases... it almost seems like it could be a very strange vocal "uh", but it sounds like an artifact. is that on the record? what is it?

That squeek in the left channel? It sounds like an MP3 decoder error but it's on the CD. There's actually a few of them, perhaps a vocal lick?

Commercial music is becoming less and less about the music and more about the "product" and its placement.

The key word is "commercial". The only reason art exists in the corporate world is to get people's attention to sell something. The product being sold maybe art itself but that art is secondary. Art is a commodity no different from potatoes or Brittany Spears.

I bought the #1's CD and it sounds pretty bad considering the originals are esteemed as gr8 pillars of sonic engineering achievement

My wife has that comp. The first time I heard it was in her car and I could hear the distortion there. I analyzed it at home. BJ is -7.5 RMS and each snare drum hit has about 20-150 overloads.


Does ANYBODY here have the original master? I really want to hear it now because the copy I have sound no where near as good as I remember it.

[OMNIFEX]

I performed a quick analysis of Billie Jean, which stems from the Thriller CD. The drums offer peaks ranging from 466 – 400 Hz whereas the bass rhythm section is 122 – 110 Hz. Those two frequencies are the dominant peaks in the track. The above was evaluated using Elemental Audio IXL Spectrum Analyser.

SPL offers a continuous average level ranging around –17.5 dB (peaks -14.5 dB) and, peaks @ 0 dB using the Sonoris Demonstration Meter. Bear in mind, within the first bars of the track before the rhythm section begins, the Sonoris meter states the signal clipped 1 time on the left channel and, 6 times on the right.

The Off The Wall track I have kept clipping excessively on peaks, and offer a continuous average of –8.6 dB on the left and, -8.4 dB on the right channel. The figures reflect the first 30 seconds of the track and get worse as you approach the end of the track.

The picture below reflects the readout on the Sonoris Meter to wards the end of the track entitled “Off The Wall.”




Cheers!

[OMNIFEX]

Id might add the track entitled "Off The Wall" clips 111 times on the left channel and 81 times on the right channel using the Sonoris Meter as reference from start to finish of the track.







Here is Billie Jean from start to finish





Cheers!

[Alécio Costa]

deff MEs???

[OMNIFEX]

Originally Posted by Alécio Costa

deff MEs???

Originally Posted by OMNIFEX

Bear in mind, within the first bars of the track before the rhythm section begins, the Sonoris meter states the signal clipped 1 time on the left channel and, 6 times on the right.

That’s the only time the track entitled “Billie Jean” clips throughout the whole set. I have no idea what happened to “Off The Wall.” What I can confirm with the track entitled “Off The Wall” compression is evident playing through large loudspeakers. As I was monitoring the Sonoris meters, it looks as if the dynamics were too strong to control while maintaining the continuous average output at a respectable level (RMS to Peak Ratio).

Cheers!

[bcgood]

My copy of Off the Wall doesn't clip and is definitely not over limited.

[Stiff]

I have MP3's of Dangerous and Bad ripped from CD. I also have them both on vinyl. The vinyl version kills them, and not (only) because they're MP3, the dynamics are something completely different.

[OMNIFEX]

Originally Posted by bcgood

My copy of Off the Wall doesn't clip and is definitely not over limited.

Where does yours stand from a continuous average/peak in terms of dB?

What did the measurements state?


Cheers!

[bcgood]

Michael Jackson - Off the Wall

RMS Power

Average -20.51 dB Left -20.13 dB Right

Maximum -12.96 dB Left -12.78 dB Right

[AntManBee]

Originally Posted by narcoman

The early CD version sounds terrible too. I prefer the re-issue.

the vinyl version from "back in da day" works for me......

Which re-issue do you prefer & have you had your hearing tested recently?

The vinyl from Back In The Day sounds terrible - it's from a second generation master & is badly EQ'd - the 8 track cassette works best for me ;-)

[OMNIFEX]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Michael Jackson - Off the Wall

RMS Power

Average -20.51 dB Left -20.13 dB Right

Maximum -12.96 dB Left -12.78 dB Right

I'll need to search for that album. Hearing the compressor reacting in the track on mine sounds like utter rubbish on a large system.

Cheers!

[Spartacus]

Originally Posted by bcgood

My copy of Off the Wall doesn't clip and is definitely not over limited.

I guess OMNIFEX is talking about a best of version, not the original "off the Wall" album