RMG SM 911 new batch, serious sticky shed

[bob katz]

I was just about to transfer a beautiful new 1/2" set of master tapes when I discovered some serious problems with the tones and I thought maybe my heads or electronics had gone bad. But it turned out, upon visual inspection, to be a serious case of sticky shed.

It doesn't take more than a minute of play for a 1/8 to 1/4" wide brown layer of oxide to land on the gap. That's serious. I also detect a little squeak when rocking it, indicating this could be a lubricant issue. The tapes came from Seattle, and humidity could be the problem, but of course they also got shipped through Florida on their way to me. They are now in air-conditioned conditions, but nevertheless....

I would advise that anyone considering using this tape, before using it or recording on it, to play some sections of it for 5 to 10 minutes and make sure it does not have the sticky shed phenomenon.

This is not a denigration of this new brand and the brave folks making it, or the type of tape. Many tape types have had sticky shed issues in their early generations. Although I understand this model of tape has been around for a year or more, and this is from this year's batch to the best of my knowledge. I can give you the batch number if anyone is interested.

Sorry for the bad news.

[jdg]

it hasn't had a serious rain or any dampness here in months.

all the RMG stuff i've ever used was shedy. others have had some better luck, i have not

[bass man]

I use daily RMG Sm 468 and Per 528 without any problems .

[turtlerock]

yeah Bob , i wont let an RMG tape in the building again , i just cannot bare turning a simple mastering job into a two day witch hunt again. it not OUR fault brand new tape is falling to bits..! but gee it feels like it every time a roll of shedding RMG shows up .

the client is not happy we are not happy .. i would have thought RMG were not happy

i used to try to help them with numbers , batches locations , but the mess keeps coming

nowadays we ask the client what kind of tape they have .. if its RMG we pass or look for alternatives.

i know some guys have had no RMG problems , but the problem Bob is describing is our multiply experience as well we have only ever HAD problems , its cost us days and days
i wont do it again

[dodgeaspen]

Oh yes. I know this situation all too well. I bought 1 reel to have my 38 calibrated and the tech put on the work order the tape is junk. After making a call to Phill Paske from RMG he wanted me to take picks of my heads and guides. WHAT?? I just had this thing serviced from a Tascam authorized dealer and repair shop! I would have thought if I had a problem they would have told me about it. Short story long, he sent me another reel and wanted me to send back the first reel. At first I agreed, but when I got the second one I found NO return label for the first reel. You mean to tell me that due to your company's fault I have to pay to send this piece of junk back to you at my cost?!?! I don't think so. I wound up buying ATR Magnetics tape and love it. Yes it is more expensive, but in this case you get what you pay for. The site is ATR Magnetics, LLC The people are very nice. They will go out of their way to help you. Some love RMG, I do NOT.

[wado1942]

You know, I got a case of 1/4" GP9 pancakes right before they discontinued it. All the tapes are perfect except one! One tape and one alone sheds a little, not like you're describing but it leaves a bit of residue at the end of play and the others don't. Supposedly they solved this problem by crossexamining their binder with a gas spectrometer. Strange stuff!

Originally Posted by dodgeaspen

making a call to Phill Paske from RMG he wanted me to take picks of my heads and guides. WHAT??

Part of their research in solving the problem is finding out what decks are being used with the stuff and their condition. They say that Studers don't generally have shedding problems but then, everything the tape touches except the heads are rollers. But if there's ridges in the tape guides etc, they'll peg your deck as at fault.

The site is ATR Magnetics, LLC The people are very nice. They will go out of their way to help you. Some love RMG, I do NOT

Seems like they change their domain every time I go there. I've heard nothing but good stuff about this tape and even MRL uses it.

[turtlerock]

my problem was the idea that somehow i need to wear the RMG problem when i dont even own or buy the tape .

example 1 client comes in with tape no backup that turns out to be faulty , i lose a days pay ..

example 2 client comes in with faulty tape and digital backup but doesn't like the sound of the back up he did , i lose a days pay....

example 3 client comes in from overseas with faulty tape , no backup and begs me to "transfer" his masters , which i do using a "freon" based lubricant.. yeah i know its banned but i still have some from the good old days ...

client spends half the day freaking out , i cannot settle him , he has spent a lot of money to come and see me and really had a downer of a day ..

me i end up with nicely polished heads as the tape is also abrasive as it sheds .

i didn't lose a days pay (i am learning...) but i dont want to spend the day Riding a tape machine just to get the music off it .

but i get a dozen emails from the client after the fact questioning my machine .. which is a pristine ATR 102 with ext response flux magnetics heads, perfect guides and rollers etc
our machine plays ampex ,basf , ATR and any number of vintage tapes perfectly
( we also have an in house laboratory oven for baking historic tapes )
actually we have a lot of machines and i know a lot about them , but why should i have to go through this again and again with RMG as if its the first time it has happened?

admittedly the local distributer was fantastic (after they sent a tech to my place to check out that it was not me .. but the factory ... please )

well let it be known for all to see sometimes there are still some shedding problems with RMG i say

RANT over :(

[IIIrd]

it's not an uncommon problem with this tape stock. i was told by our supplier that they had cured this issue,...maybe you have some older stock, if not, then is no good news as use tape on a daily basis. i had a stash of 456, but thats not going to last that long

kind of scary though as they make tape for black box flight recorders

[Paul Gold]

I haven't had a problem with it on my A80's. I had some in last week. They arrived with silica bead packs in the box. I thought that was a nice touch.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

I haven't had a problem with it on my A80's. I had some in last week. They arrived with silica bead packs in the box. I thought that was a nice touch.

I have a playback only headstack with fixed dummies where the erase and record heads would be. I just sent the headstack to John French, who's going to make them into roller guides. That way the only fixed "guide" in the entire Studer will be the playback head. This should help the shedding issue tremendously.

BK

[Plush]

I have run 100's of reels of RMGI SM900 1/2" and 1/4 " here without a single problem.

This tells me that perhaps environmental conditions or specific tape recorder issues are cropping up.

What about the merchants who keep stock of RMGI in hot warehouses and who are selling you a 3 or 4 year old case? When we buy from our dealer, we receive the tape directly from the RMGI warehouse in Indiana. So we know and we verify that it is fresh and a current batch.

I think it is unfair to paint all RMGI product as shedding as some have on this thread. I discount these reports because of some bias. (sic) It has never been my experience.

I have maximum confidence in the SM900 product for sound and for running well.

[ihearsounds]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I was just about to transfer a beautiful new 1/2" set of master tapes when I discovered some serious problems with the tones and I thought maybe my heads or electronics had gone bad. But it turned out, upon visual inspection, to be a serious case of sticky shed.

It doesn't take more than a minute of play for a 1/8 to 1/4" wide brown layer of oxide to land on the gap. That's serious. I also detect a little squeak when rocking it, indicating this could be a lubricant issue. The tapes came from Seattle, and humidity could be the problem, but of course they also got shipped through Florida on their way to me. They are now in air-conditioned conditions, but nevertheless....

I would advise that anyone considering using this tape, before using it or recording on it, to play some sections of it for 5 to 10 minutes and make sure it does not have the sticky shed phenomenon.

This is not a denigration of this new brand and the brave folks making it, or the type of tape. Many tape types have had sticky shed issues in their early generations. Although I understand this model of tape has been around for a year or more, and this is from this year's batch to the best of my knowledge. I can give you the batch number if anyone is interested.

Sorry for the bad news.

It would be interesting to see a picture of the shed you are talking about, what amount of shed do you get? I´ve had some little shed with about 20cps of 2" SM911 i´ve gotten this year from RMG.. I´ve used them since i thought a new tape might leave a little to the heads.. Been using 2nd hand tape only before!

[Gus Elg]

I had shed issues with 2 of the first 3 RMGI reels (1/4" SM911) I tried about a year ago when I ran out of my stash of Quantegy. Since then I've been using ATR and I've been very happy with it. Sounds good and I haven't had a reliability problem, although I've only been through 5 or 6 reels.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Plush

I think it is unfair to paint all RMGI product as shedding as some have on this thread. I discount these reports because of some bias. (sic) It has never been my experience.

Can you point out where anyone did that in this thread? For Turtlerock, his actual experience, not bias, says there is too much risk to bother with the product. Other people have posted their actual experiences, and noted that others were not having those bad experiences. All very fair reporting.

------

Plush has pimped for RMGI's experience and trustworthiness and badmouthed ATR Magnetics as a risky start up for years, having never used the ATR tape, and having expressed no interest in trying it. He comes on every thread (there are many) where people post their seemingly commonplace bad experiences with RMGI and say they're being "unfair" or "biased".

Let's look at these companies in comparison ... RMGI has been in the video tape business for many years, and was not making this audio tape until recently. They bought the EMTEC formulas and modified a portion of the production machinery for smaller scale production. The EMTEC factory was huge. Some of the EMTEC behemoths went to China or similar to be retooled for use in other industries. RMGI is quick to market out of a business decision to fill a product void they smartly anticipated. So now that RMGI has issues they are asking people to prove it's not the users fault? Even after all this time and the many examples, they're in denial about their own QC?

Meanwhile Mike Spitz and ATR are specialists in audio tape machines and in audio tape types from decades of detailed focus on this one specific field. They designed all new manufacturing equipment and took their time to refine the sonics and stability of an all new formula that was the best-of-all-worlds to their taste. They raised the quality of their machinery as compared to any before it, to make consistent batches for any machine type, on smaller runs as needed by this market. Their approach was slow, too slow, and calculated on a technical quality/sound quality level. This is not a business plan for short term but for long term. ATR Magnetics is a small American company with a massive investment in what they think is the best audio tape (slitting/sound/consistency) ever produced, and they are prepared to make it for 50+ years. All this was done knowing that the market was small.

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by Gus Elg

I had shed issues with 2 of the first 3 RMGI reels (1/4" SM911) I tried about a year ago when I ran out of my stash of Quantegy. Since then I've been using ATR and I've been very happy with it. Sounds good and I haven't had a reliability problem, although I've only been through 5 or 6 reels.

I bought ATR tape (mostly for lay-back purposes) and, although I liked it, found it didn't last as long as the Quantegy GP9 I had used for a couple of years.

So, wanting to save some coin, I got a reel of RMG 1/2" (I think SM911) to try. I'd hoped it would last like the Quantegy and I believe it was a little less expensive not to mention available locally in my city (Toronto).

I put a reel on my Spitz rebuilt ATR and worked for a while. The tape sounded just fine. So just before I was ready to print the master, I ran tones and they were unusually down on one side. Checked the heads and sure enough, all the negatives I had read were true. This tape was shedding like crazy! Once I cleaned the heads, etc., the tones lined up again. The RMG tape went in the garbage and my last reel of ATR went on.

So, no longer caring about saving a few bucks, I called Mike and ordered a few more rolls of the ATR. To save me some money, he agreed to ship them to me in the pancake format.

I have talked to him a few times about my experiences and he always explains what he thinks is going on and does change the formulation of his tape in response to user feedback.

For instance, this new batch I have does seem to last longer.

I had never used RMG before and took a chance on a roll as there were just as many positive posts as negatives. However after that experience, I will never try it again as there really is no reason to.

I think Mike Spitz is one of the best in the tape recorder business and when he told me a couple of years ago he was going to be making tape, I thought it would turn out well and it has!

[jamesp]

Originally Posted by Plush

I have run 100's of reels of RMGI SM900 1/2" and 1/4 " here without a single problem.

Just an observation - most of the reports of shedding that I've seen seem to be with SM911 so maybe, as an SM900 user, it isn't surprising that you've had no problems.

Cheers

James.

[Plush]

Here he comes once again. The esteemed Lucey has spoken!

RMG has made tape--real recording tape--for decades and they are not new with tape.
Check out their partnership with DuPont in the early 80's. At that point, they had already been making tape for 20 years in the Netherlands.

Lucey doesn't know about me. I 'm a record maker from Chicago who still is heavily involved in using and researching analog tape. In my earlier career I have worked for Stellavox S.A. in Neuchatel Switzerland directly with Georges Quellet, the inventor of Stellavox, I have worked for Nagra Kudelski in the US and I have worked with Studer.

I know analog tape and Lucey cannot hold a candle to my experience and expertise with tape. So stuff it, baby.

I have no interest in ATR tape it's true. I also have no reason to change from the world's best recording tape--currently made by RMGI.

RMGI USA has excellent customer service--that's a fact. Instead of acknowledging that Lucey mumbles about them asking the customer to prove that their tape is bad. That is not how they behave.

Why do you make up things here?

[lucey]

Plush your experience with tape is not in doubt ... and yet there are numerous threads like this on RMGI, with customer service frustrations clearly spelled out. That fact seems to escape you.

You tenure with oxides is similar to Mike Spitz's at ATR, yet he was always more on Ampex machines. Wouldn't have a lingering anti-Ampex bias in there would you?

This formulation was made in huge batches at EMTEC ... it's thus very "new" to the video tape experts you have raved about so irrationally for years.


"best recording tape" you say? "no interest in ATR?" ... whatever brother, my point is made.

[Paul Gold]

Let's bust out the lube, run the tape around four posts and see who gets covered with oxide first. Bets please.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

Let's bust out the lube, run the tape around four posts and see who gets covered with oxide first. Bets please.

Is that an African or a European lube ... ?

[wado1942]

I bought ATR tape (mostly for lay-back purposes) and, although I liked it, found it didn't last as long as the Quantegy GP9 I had used for a couple of years.

What do you mean by this? Did it stretch, shed, fade? What kind of usage/time frame? I'm going through my 1/4" GP9 pancake a LOT faster than I expected so I'm curious to know if I should try to find some new old stock or go to ATR.

[prolearts]

Originally Posted by lucey

Can you point out where anyone did that in this thread? For Turtlerock, his actual experience, not bias, says there is too much risk to bother with the product. Other people have posted their actual experiences, and noted that others were not having those bad experiences. All very fair reporting.

------

Plush has pimped for RMGI's experience and trustworthiness and badmouthed ATR Magnetics as a risky start up for years, having never used the ATR tape, and having expressed no interest in trying it. He comes on every thread (there are many) where people post their seemingly commonplace bad experiences with RMGI and say they're being "unfair" or "biased".

Let's look at these companies in comparison ... RMGI has been in the video tape business for many years, and was not making this audio tape until recently. They bought the EMTEC formulas and modified a portion of the production machinery for smaller scale production. The EMTEC factory was huge. Some of the EMTEC behemoths went to China or similar to be retooled for use in other industries. RMGI is quick to market out of a business decision to fill a product void they smartly anticipated. So now that RMGI has issues they are asking people to prove it's not the users fault? Even after all this time and the many examples, they're in denial about their own QC?

Meanwhile Mike Spitz and ATR are specialists in audio tape machines and in audio tape types from decades of detailed focus on this one specific field. They designed all new manufacturing equipment and took their time to refine the sonics and stability of an all new formula that was the best-of-all-worlds to their taste. They raised the quality of their machinery as compared to any before it, to make consistent batches for any machine type, on smaller runs as needed by this market. Their approach was slow, too slow, and calculated on a technical quality/sound quality level. This is not a business plan for short term but for long term. ATR Magnetics is a small American company with a massive investment in what they think is the best audio tape (slitting/sound/consistency) ever produced, and they are prepared to make it for 50+ years. All this was done knowing that the market was small.

Hear, hear!

I got fairly flamed by Plush sometime last year for daring to suggest that I had experienced an inordinate amount of problems with RMG tape.

In the interest of full disclosure, I also had one roll of ATR 2" last year with shedding problems. It was replaced immediately (along with the other tape I bought at the same time, just be safe) with no questions asked about my tape guides, etc. It's not an experience that has ever been repeated.

Plush, respectfully (not that I think you have had a terrible amount of respect for differing opinions on this topic), you really come off as some sort of mole for RMG whenever this topic comes up. If you have not had any problems, that's really great for you. We have all learned how thorough and deep your experience is too, thanks for that, it's just not relevant to the fact that this tape is shedding around the world for (at the very least) dozens of users on many occasions.

We receive at least 80 to 100 reels of tape a year that we are asked to create masters from and the only tape that has ever had shedding problems (probably about 30% of the total amount of RMG that we receive) is RMG 911. Not ATR (1/4" or 1/2"), not old Quantegy, not even really old Ampex (!), not old Emtec, nothing else. So I think it's fair to say that the OVERWHELMING evidence submitted by users on this forum is that there are some significant problems with this tape stock and it has gone on over time for at least a few years now. Putting your hands over your ears and yelling "I'm not listening," so to speak, does not change these experiences. We don't all just hate your favorite company, we are simply sharing information in the hope that it is useful to others.

Relax please! (Now I'll duck behind my virtual desk for a vitriolic response)

[Plush]

No need here for a vitriolic response. I am not a RMGI policeman or a doubter of pro's experience here. Only a doubter of those who shitte out a squeeling worm! while begging for a lube job.

I don't doubt that people are having problems with some RMGI tape. I think some of these problems are with olde tape that has sat in a dealer's hot warehouse for some years and thus has deteriorated. Perhaps there has been another round of problems.
I'm sure that RMGI will address them.

RMGI has made audio tape for decades contrary to the nonsense that Lucey squeezes out from time to time. Lucey is spreading garbage while I'm making a Grammy winner with the RMGI tape. That's what time it is.

[lucey]

You may have notice that I'm done posting about it. His name is prolearts .... get yourself a clue and then step back on that high horse!

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

Let's bust out the lube, run the tape around four posts and see who gets covered with oxide first. Bets please.

Paul, speaking of lube...

I'm getting my new roller-guide-equipped Studer headstack back tomorrow from JRF. I'll redo zenith and wrap and adjust the first guide for a true roller guide and the second as a scrape flutter idler and presto, a Studer with only one fixed part---the head itself.

In case some stuff still comes off on the head, do you have a formula for a " light lube" that could be put on the repro head to try to reduce the rubbing?

BK

[turtlerock]

Bob , i have had some success using my leftover can of free-on , but you have keep reapply it every song as it chews up a hole in the ozone layer pretty quickly it doesn't affect the tape at all and leaves no residue after the fact

but so i understand you correctly , you have a clients tape from a week ago that is shedding and your have chosen to "hotrod" your perfectly good machine in the hope you can play back the tape and save the day (admirable) and do the session this week ?

who pays for your time and the cost of the hotrod .. ?
you or the particular faulty tape manufacturer..?
( because i am sure they will replace the tape under warranty)

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I'm getting my new roller-guide-equipped Studer headstack back tomorrow from JRF. I'll redo zenith and wrap and adjust the first guide for a true roller guide and the second as a scrape flutter idler and presto, a Studer with only one fixed part---the head itself.

Bob, that's exactly what we did years ago with a huge Studer (can't recall the model), for semi-pro & domestic tapes down to 1 7/8ips, with interchangeable 1/2 track & 1/4 or 4trk (switchable) track headstacks and fully variable tension. Worked a treat.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by turtlerock

Bob , i have had some success using my leftover can of free-on , but you have keep reapply it every song as it chews up a hole in the ozone layer pretty quickly it doesn't affect the tape at all and leaves no residue after the fact

Very interesting! I only want it to last one song anyway!

Now, how do you happen to have a leftover can of freon that hasn't evaporated already?

but so i understand you correctly , you have a clients tape from a week ago that is shedding and your have chosen to "hotrod" your perfectly good machine in the hope you can play back the tape and save the day (admirable) and do the session this week ?

Yes, and it cost me $875 to have it done! But it's not all altruistic. I've been thinking of doing this for a few years, reducing the scrape flutter and just making and overall better-sounding transport.

who pays for your time and the cost of the hotrod .. ?
you or the particular faulty tape manufacturer..?
( because i am sure they will replace the tape under warranty)

Ah yes. What is the warranty for a priceless tape recording? Kodak used to warranty their film for its replacement value. But if there is a once-in-a-lifetime photograph that didn't come out, what's the warranty worth, anyway? At this point we're dealing with salvaging an existing recording.

My hope is that the shed was only on the tone reel, as the two music cuts on that reel were outtakes anyway. And I had the studio make me another reel of tones, and he played it for 10 minutes and got no shed before he shipped it to me. The particular mechanism that causes this problem (which I am not at liberty to discuss in a public forum but you all can call me) is VERY likely to occur only on certain reels of a batch if it occurs at all.

Anyone else have a head lubricant formula to share?

BK

[wado1942]

Maybe you should try experimenting with a bottle of Filmrenue. It's a very light petrolium distilate used to make brittle acetate films more pliable. I use it to clean films before transferring to video. I got in contact with the guy who invented it to ask about its effect on films with magnetic sound stripes because my band's original 4-track tapes from 1963 were too brittle to play. He said he'd never heard any negative feedback on it. The person who had the 1/2" 4-track tapes never sent them to me so I couldn't test it myself. Perhaps you could wind an unimportant, dry tape through a shallow bath of it to see what it does. I'd try it myself except I ran out of it and don't have any dry tapes anyway.

You could also try graphite, but that would probably make me nervous having a fine powder shuttling across my headstack.

[Cellotron]

Lots of good reading and info on the subject at
Restoration Tips & Notes

particularly at
Restoration Tips & Notes » Wet playing of reel tapes with Loss of Lubricant—A guest article by Marie O’Connell

Best regards,
Steve Berson