When is too many mix revisions

[ONDRAY]

When is the point that you just want to tell a client it’s too many revisions, the song is fine your have musician cold feet and don’t want to let go. It’s not a matter of work load or payment, they are willing to pay for every revision. It’s a matter of me hearing the same song to much to be able to master it after. If I master a song and the client likes it the master but then goes and changes the mix and resubmit’s for mastering, and this happens over and over 4-6 times, I get to the point where it’s not new anymore and I find I won’t be able to give it those fresh ears an ME

[jdg]

this happens sometimes but i think if you give your ears a complete rest for 12-16hrs, you will be able to come back with fresh ears, even on a track you've heard 10+ times.

[Waltz Mastering]

Can't you refer to any recall notes (if you keep them)? or are their revisions that different?

If I know something has a high probability of recall, I'll keep notes.

[It'sJoeAgain]

but aren't revisions sometimes almost imminent everytime u get one of those *moderate (if not crappy) quality mixes*?? ...or... that after the mix is mastered the clients react at the lack of somethin which most likely wasn't in the mix in tha first place??

[wado1942]

If the client opts to remix without any prompting, I'd say by about the 2nd or 3rd time, you should suggest the client take some time away from the project until he's sure of what he wants. You can also ask what it is you're doing that's influencing them towards a remix.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by It'sJoeAgain

but aren't revisions sometimes almost imminent?

It's not anything I would like to count on happening with any regularity.

I like to try to keep the possibilities of a revision to a minimum.

[aleatoric]

Ideally a client should be all squared away with his mixes before coming to a mastering engineer. However this is not always the case.

Many ME's offer mix evaluations where a client can come in and listen to his mix through your high quality play back system and using your experience ears and knowledge of your room/system you can give him notes and adjustments to get the mix better prepared for mastering (typically you can charge for this process but that's entirely up to you). At that point I believe it is up to him to take your advice and come back to with something that is "locked it" so you can master it.

I would not really tolerate too much back and forth after this point. You gave your mix advice he should implement it to the best of his ability and understand that he needs to be completely satisfied with the mix aspects of the music before dropping it off to you. After that even if things are less than ideal you should do what you can with it and try to bring out the best.

Part of the ME's role is to address problem areas in the mix, after the initial step of giving mix advise and getting a remix I feel other problems that could not be heard by the mix engineer should than be addressed in mastering and ultimately yield a finished that is far superior to what the client original brought to you for evaluation.

EDIT: Read your post more clearly. If the client keeps submitting fresh mixes to be mastered again (and is willing to pay for them) that is a little bit of a different story. Are the mixes he is submitting much better than the old mixes? Eventually he will probably just be happy with the both the mix and the master and you will be done with it. Depends how busy you are but its pretty hard to turn down work if the client is willing to pay. However you can only improve on a mix so much so I would imagine its quite possible that say mix revision 3 was the best and feel free to tell him that and it will shine some light that it is not an endless process. Or say let me know when you are 100% on the mix and we will approach this one more time and get things sounding great.

[wado1942]

Hey, sometimes another revision is WORSE! I did a single for a guy a few months ago and he was pretty satisfied with it. Then just a couple weeks ago, he sent me a new mix that he though was better. It was an unmasterable mess. So I told him I could go ahead and do what I could but the original master was better than the new one could be. Fortunately, he ultimately decided to stick with the old one.

[macc]

I had one extreme case recently with a dude, through a small label.

10 track album - I received 34 files in total, all up front

Geezer didn't even know what he wanted, so I made selections as I felt best, did the work, it was still quite bass heavy (the mixes were REALLY overly bass heavy) but I thought it sounded really good. then he decided he didn't agree with my choices from the variety of mixes and that there was too much bass, and decided to take it to a local ME in Toronto.

Despite a massive amount of communication, there was very little communication of what he wanted, cos he didn't know. The whole thing was a massive massive pain in the arse beyond belief, I felt undermined and disrespected, and in short it makes me look bad as he's going to tell people my work was too bass heavy etc.

Anyway, it's very strongly reiterated to me the need for an artist to be 150% happy with their mixes before they send anything.

[IIIrd]

i had a client who brought in 8 mixes of each track, 10 in all. he'd decided on which were "the masters", but when i put in a little eq, he's then listen to all the mixes therough that eq. he'd then say..."maybe a little more top", and then we'd listen to all the mixes again...the tracks were 7 or 8 mins long, and there was much listening with tight closed eyes....
needless to say the session went to 23 hrs and much caffine.

i've also had clients pass me files songnamemix75.wav,

scary really....

some dont apreciate that the meter is running in the mastering room and it aint cheap. be prepared when you go to mastering.

ever had someone bring in stems and start mixing?! that gets very expensive.

back to the orinial point as i think i'm off it a little...it doesnt happen often, but we do tend to make notes.

[Mr.HOLMES]

This is a normal thing for me after a few years now.

Clients sit in my room and are totally blown away by the mix and tell me how great it is.
A few days later they talked to to other people or to other producers and their opinion changes by 360°

So I did a job for a documentary DVD last year and I guess we had in every song about 20 changes and remixing and so on bla bla bla.

Ok there was a point for me because this project was a never ending story.
So I told my client.

Ok these are the last revision I will do so think carefully before telling me what should change.

The Problem is music is totally subjective.
Even with my last mix for a client. It is always the same in first they love it and in the end you need to mix it new even if they gave you ideas and instructions based on a rough mix.

So myself I do one mix and one revision (remixing) for a lower fee.
After this comes a point mostly where I ask the client if he wants to mix it.

For sure if there was a big mistake by myself I do not charge money for a revision.

But in general the longer a mix takes because of many changing decisions by the client the more it gets uninteresting to me because I have heard that song too long.

[Darius van H]

As long as they're willing to pay, i don't see the problem.

[mastertone]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

As long as they're willing to pay, i don't see the problem.

+1

I just finished an album i started workin on in august last year (-08)

It went back and forth so many times i cant even remember, the band kept on sending new mixes, new tracks, retracking stuff, it didnt stop until the singer told the "producer" he will quit the band if he didnt get it finished..

Ha!

[ONDRAY]

Originally Posted by macc

...then he decided he didn't agree with my choices from the variety of mixes and that there was too much bass, and decided to take it to a local ME in Toronto.

Despite a massive amount of communication, there was very little communication of what he wanted, cos he didn't know. The whole thing was a massive massive pain in the arse beyond belief, I felt undermined and disrespected, and in short it makes me look bad as he's going to tell people my work was too bass heavy etc.

oh you're the guy I've been hearing about around town... Jokes aside, that's allot f mixes I feel your Pain.

Worst thing is when instruments are added to the track and they try to pull it off as a remix. Do they
think we can not hear the new shakers, guitar lick etc.... Please.

[macc]

He came back to me today...

New masters are unuseable, 'distorting on anything less than professional speakers' etc.

Vindication

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I have been working on a project since January.

The client liked the original mastering I did for him but the recording engineer was not happy with the mastering. So we did round two of the mastering.

When he heard the revised mastering the client was not happy since it was not up to "contemporary" levels and wanted me to redo the mastering for the third time. So now I am waiting for him to approve the third mastering.

My client is a great person and someone I respect but he never wants to listen to his material on my system and always takes the mastered tracks with him to his home setup. That maybe fine for him but I get no feedback from him while he is sitting here in my studio and some of the tweaks he wants done seem like he is listening on speakers with a hot high end and a more than robust bottom end.

I am guessing but I think we are about to do round four.

Some of the clients I work with seem to never be satisfied no matter what I do with their material. This particular client is not like that but he is listening for things that sometimes makes me wonder if he even knows what it is that he wants. He is a good client and someone I enjoy working with but I am getting somewhat tired of all the changes. Hopefully this will be the end of the project.

...Oh but wait the recording engineer has not heard the new mastering I wonder what his reaction will be??? I love working for a client with an off field commentator and judge. I think the recording engineer wants to have NO mastering done but is afraid to tell the client. I think he thinks that there is no need for my services because what he provided for the client was "perfect" and needed no additional enhancement. We maybe gearing up for rounds 5 and 6.

Interesting project that has gone on way too long. Will keep you posted....

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by ONDRAY

When is the point that you just want to tell a client it’s too many revisions, the song is fine your have musician cold feet and don’t want to let go. It’s not a matter of work load or payment, they are willing to pay for every revision. It’s a matter of me hearing the same song to much to be able to master it after. If I master a song and the client likes it the master but then goes and changes the mix and resubmit’s for mastering, and this happens over and over 4-6 times, I get to the point where it’s not new anymore and I find I won’t be able to give it those fresh ears an ME

I had rather say when is it the time to say STOP after doing a take for 4 hrs on a guitar, vocal track.

[Jesse Skeens]

I've had only a few guys send me back anything like 4-6 revisions as each time I sent over a master they heard things that lead to a new mix. It can get a little frustrating almost to the verge where I don't think we're going to make headway but each time I've just pushed through and tried to stay objective. In the end they've walked away very happy so it's worth it trouble at least.