To those using B&W to master...

[swaff]

I notice that in your guys' mastering room pictures, the B&W are on the ground, and it looks like the tweeter is definitely below ear level. Is that the case for you all, and if so, can you shed some light on this? Are you just used to how they sound without having the tweeter in line with your head?

I just picked up some old B&W Matrix 802 and I have been wondering about this dilemma.

Thanks,

Swaff

[inlinenl]

Hi Swaff,
well not true in most cases I think ... at least they're on ear level @ myplace
I'm just adding some speaker images to my gallery ...
matrix 802 should be on a stand to be at ear level when seated ... just measure your ear hight when seated .. and rise the speakers to that hight ... easy ...

[steffen]

N802s here

I think they are designed to listen sitting on the sofa, not in front of a mastering desk on a chair.
so you need th raise them up. some use sound anchors (Adjustable Monitor Stands | Speaker Stands | Studio Stands | Amplifier Stands)
some use granite blocks. 10cm raise is just right for me. unfortunately the b&w manual doesn´t give a hint where the best level is. somewhere between midchassis and tweeter but more toward the mid chassis gives me the best focus. the matrix might be a bit different of course but you surely need to raise them if you sit on a desk.

[swaff]

Inline, I see you have them on stands. Someone told me the low end is not as solid if they are on stands, but that could have been misinformation. Any info about that? Which stands do you recommend? I wonder if there might be a valid DIY stand I could make, seeing as how I just about broke the bank to get these in the first place!

Beautiful studio you have there. Thanks for sharing!

Swaff

[swaff]

Originally Posted by steffen

N802s here

I think they are designed to listen sitting on the sofa, not in front of a mastering desk on a chair.
so you need th raise them up. some use sound anchors (Adjustable Monitor Stands | Speaker Stands | Studio Stands | Amplifier Stands)
some use granite blocks. 10cm raise is just right for me. unfortunately the b&w manual doesn´t give a hint where the best level is. somewhere between midchassis and tweeter but more toward the mid chassis gives me the best focus. the matrix might be a bit different of course but you surely need to raise them if you sit on a desk.

Thanks for the info! I might try to find some granite blocks. Awesome website, man!

Swaff

[steffen]

Originally Posted by swaff

Thanks for the info! I might try to find some granite blocks. Awesome website, man!

Swaff

thanx Swaff!

btw... I ment "sitting in front of a desk...not on a desk

[inlinenl]

Originally Posted by swaff

Inline, I see you have them on stands. Someone told me the low end is not as solid if they are on stands, but that could have been misinformation. Any info about that? Which stands do you recommend? I wonder if there might be a valid DIY stand I could make, seeing as how I just about broke the bank to get these in the first place!

Beautiful studio you have there. Thanks for sharing!

Swaff

my stands are original 800 speakers and on original spikes , they're connected to it from the factory ... they're standing on some marble plates .. just for 2 CM rise ..

I think if you go to a marble shop/garden centre , you'll find all sizes of granite and other stones ... if you put a rubber plate unther/between them they'll work for sure ..

[swaff]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

my stands are original 800 speakers and on original spikes , they're connected to it from the factory ... they're standing on some marble plates .. just for 2 CM rise ..

I think if you go to a marble shop/garden centre , you'll find all sizes of granite and other stones ... if you put a rubber plate unther/between them they'll work for sure ..

Very cool! So, like this?

Speaker
Rubber Plate
Marble/Granite

[inlinenl]

swaff ...

speaker
spikes or anything to make them stable
stones
rubber

or

speaker
spikes or anything to make them stable
stones
thin max 5 mm rubber
stone
rubber


you want to have the most weight/mass as possible ... and reduce vibrations going into the floor/room ...


Wim

[skuttbergsveen]

Here is more info on the same subject.

[MASSIVE Master]

N802's with the tweeters just above ear level (personal preference) using Sound Anchors, spikes and 1" granite slabs.

[swaff]

Originally Posted by skuttbergsveen

Here is more info on the same subject.

Thank you very much!

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

N802's with the tweeters just above ear level (personal preference) using Sound Anchors, spikes and 1" granite slabs.

Thanks, John. I actually sent you an email few weeks ago to ask some advice about speakers since I saw you use the B&W, but never heard back from you. Maybe it went to your junk folder.

Swaff

[IIIrd]

we have 800 d's on some in house designed stands. tweeters are ear level when you stand which is basicly how i master. the stands arn't solid, ie there's air movement under them. we found this solution to be better than solid stands or plinths.
sonicly, they are amazing

[inlinenl]

Originally Posted by IIIrd

we have 800 d's on some in house designed stands. tweeters are ear level when you stand which is basicly how i master. the stands arn't solid, ie there's air movement under them. we found this solution to be better than solid stands or plinths.
sonicly, they are amazing

Well I'm not sure about your length ... but that would be some nice vieuw ... two monks on a statue .... cool.

[LudwigM]

802 Matriix III with modded Crossover here. i raised them a lot, the tweeters are above the ears. they are standing direct on sand ;-) which is in big wooden boxes. under this construction there is rubber (in germany you get it at obi for isolationg your washing machine).
but im not shure if i should change this setup and use stones because its a lot more weight... i have to a/b it but this is a lot of work.

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

Well I'm not sure about your length ... but that would be some nice vieuw ... two monks on a statue .... cool.

like 2 knights templar guarding the cathedral gates, the classe amps stand right next them,...

[swaff]

Originally Posted by steffen

N802s here

I think they are designed to listen sitting on the sofa, not in front of a mastering desk on a chair.
so you need th raise them up. some use sound anchors (Adjustable Monitor Stands | Speaker Stands | Studio Stands | Amplifier Stands)
some use granite blocks. 10cm raise is just right for me. unfortunately the b&w manual doesn´t give a hint where the best level is. somewhere between midchassis and tweeter but more toward the mid chassis gives me the best focus. the matrix might be a bit different of course but you surely need to raise them if you sit on a desk.

Hey Steffen, off topic, any updates on layouts etc for that Pultec you have on your DIY site?

Swaff

[Franco]

685s at ear level here (I'd love to get the 802s, but they're too big for my room; same tweeter on the 685s as the Nautilus series though). I sit in front of them on a sofa, and for me, there's a bit of difference if I were to stand up for example, so I suppose they say to keep them at ear level for a reason! I've got them on sand-filled B&W stands on spikes.

[mrlouie]

my N802's are on big solid cement blocks that put them just over 15 inches off the ground .. this puts the tweeter just above or at top of my head ... it works for me

[Cellotron]

Like many here I'm using Sound Anchor stands (although without any further elevation beyond these) for my N802's. I'm relatively short and sit in an Aeron chair kept fairly low so this height puts my ears about between the mid drivers and the tweeters. When I first started I had my N802's on the floor but the Sound Anchor stands made a huge difference in getting a more accurate perception of the sound for me. There very well built and definitely recommended by me - worth every penny imho.

One downside of the N802's is that their vertical "sweet spot" is indeed limited. I sit relatively closer to them in my room than many others do and I find I need to maintain my same sitting height in order to make any processing decisions. So I'd say getting the height right for your own room with them is indeed a good task to undertake.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Sam Lord]

I tried out the 802Ds recently in an untreated room at a store. I found the correct, time-coherent position wrt listener was tweeters aimed a little above the head, but not much toe-in: around 1-2 degrees worked well. I urge every user to try that toe-in setting. This was listening at about 13' out and speakers about 8' apart, as wide as the room could manage. I'll keep working on them, but this position was close to the best: only one is right for a 3-way. A "sweet" spot should be called the "right" spot, IMO. These speakers evolved over the years; their alignment must have changed some with xover types, etc. Yet B&W no doubt tried to keep the series consistent over time.
Anyway, loved the fabulous bass and mids, super coherent and quick, but tweeters sometimes got wild. I'm confident that was clipping or some issue not inherent to the tweeters because usually they were great.

[peter07734]

Originally Posted by mrlouie

my N802's are on big solid cement blocks that put them just over 15 inches off the ground .. this puts the tweeter just above or at top of my head ... it works for me

how funny, i have mine exactly the same!

I did not to start with mind, took me a while find the sweet spot....

[Russell Dawkins]

B&W are one of the few manufacturers who publish, usually in their owners manuals, the reference vertical listening axis. It is expressed in inches from the top or bottom of the enclosure. It is seldom on the tweeter axis, but usually between that and the mid range or bass/mid axis.

It surprises me how seldom this is taken into account even in reviews in magazines seeking respectability (like Stereophile), where there seems to be some sort of irrational assumption that the tweeter axis is the reference axis and measurements are taken accordingly.

[Sam Lord]

++1 Russell. There was a long thread on PSW below which addressed this about halfway down in

PSW Recording Forums: Brad Blackwood => 2 subs

I wrote this about 3-way boxes in two posts, starting with a rant in #364327:

"...One sub can *never* allow time coherence, period. Put the subs and every other driver in correct time alignment with the ear position. That usually requires setting higher-freq drivers farther from the ears, depending on the crossover and the rise times of the drivers. That's a big reason many tweeters now are recessed a half-inch or so into flared mounting plates. Manufacturers should provide correct ear-to-driver distance for any 3-or-more-driver rigid loudspeaker, because *one and only one* distance is correct. What, yours don't?** Big surprise...

Unless you can adjust drivers singly or in pairs for time alignment, there will be *only one* sweet spot or, sadly, none at all. You can do it yourself most quickly by using single-miked percussion samples, listening to one speaker channel only. Adjust woofer-to-midrange first, then mid-to-tweeter. Do separate subs vs. woofers last. Pray that the design *has* a coherent point..."

From message #366103:

"... Let's say you're a speaker designer and you've chosen your drivers and crossovers and recorded those absolute offsets. You then draw a box with some slope of front baffle with three points on it to represent the infinite-distance acoustic center of those drivers. Now draw the ear-to-tweeter line and the other two. Is there any ear-to-tweeter distance and speaker angle at which the lines converge at the ear? If yes, you have found your *only* time-coherent listening position for that speaker. Now, if just one driver on the speaker can be adjusted to move forward or back, *and* the other two drivers can be tilted, you will have a large area in which your speakers can be placed wrt your ear yet still achieve time coherence..."

Regards

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by Russell Dawkins

B&W are one of the few manufacturers who publish, usually in their owners manuals, the reference vertical listing axis. It is expressed in inches from the top or bottom of the enclosure. It is seldom on the tweeter axis, but usually between that and the mid range or bass/mid axis.

It surprises me how seldom this is taken into account even in reviews in magazines seeking respectability (like Stereophile), where there seems to be some sort of irrational assumption that the tweeter axis is the reference axis and measurements are taken accordingly.

The manufacturer can make a recommendation but that doesn't mean that users agree. I have heard a number of speakers where a vertical axxis off from tweeter height was proposed and it just NEVER worked for me. The best compromise, considering all factors, to me, still seemed to be tweeter height. Maybe that's just me though (I must admit I seem to generally prefer symmetrical drivers in compensated time alignment).

[mastertone]

Originally Posted by Franco

685s at ear level here (I'd love to get the 802s, but they're too big for my room; same tweeter on the 685s as the Nautilus series though). I sit in front of them on a sofa, and for me, there's a bit of difference if I were to stand up for example, so I suppose they say to keep them at ear level for a reason! I've got them on sand-filled B&W stands on spikes.

685´s here to, ear level, Good stuff!