Getting Mixes to JUMP out of the Speakers More.

[KyleDiSanto]

So in my belief that we are always learning and getting better at what we do.....

My next challenge for myself is to get my mixes or well...masters to JUMP out of the speakers a little bit more.

I'm not talking about a "technical" or "on paper" loudness thing per se---- more so a perceived loudness....you know, the kind where two masters may "look the same" and peak the same, but obviously one is more in your face than the other.

I should note that I don't really have this issue for things I've mixed because I have control over achieving that "in your face sound." But for out of house Mixes that I'm mastering...I feel I do pretty good at getting things more present and in your face, but....I'm still searching for a little more of that.

I'm feeling its more of an EQ thing than compression/limiting one....

Any tips/suggestions for getting that more in your face sound?

THANKS!

[MASSIVE Master]

Dynamics at the core. If you don't have that, nothing is really going to fix it. Worrying about it at the mastering phase is like killing a chicken after you cook it.

[kjg]

I understand that you just want to learn how X is done, so don't take this as critique, BUT, why would you want everything to have a "in your face" sound? Why would you want everything bright? Why would you want everything loud/flat? etc

I agree with Massive that the effect you are describing comes mostly from getting the dynamics right first in playing/programming, and then in mixing.

I would say that if it is not there in the mix, in mastering we should respect that. Just like when a mix is pretty dark. You might want to make that mix a touch brighter, but you won't turn it into a very bright master. You respect the mix that is there and work on the presentation of that mix as it is. Bright, dark, jumping out or not jumping out etc.

my 2€¢.

PS: I'm just saying this, because I personally wouldn't be very happy if a mix that I consciously made to be a bit more laid back/distant/mellow/dreamy/whatever was mangled in mastering to give it more presence and an "in your face" quality.
Not all music needs that and it might not be the intention of the artist/mixer/producer.

[KyleDiSanto]

Hey Guys......I should have specified a bit more...I supposed I want some of my more Aggressive..Rock stuff to jump out a tad more...

But yeah I supposed you guys are right about it being more of an arrangement/Mixing thing...and I've been driving my nuts trying to get things to sound more like my MIXES...

Not because mine or better or anything like that...but when the client wants that in your face sound like alot of my mixes have....but either don't want to pay for the proper service or can't (whatever really)....it gets frustrating i guess when I know what the issue is...ya know what I mean?


Thanks for the advice guys!

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

Worrying about it at the mastering phase is like killing a chicken after you cook it.

Or falling off a horse before u mount it...or being mauled by a bulldog without provocation?? ... OP: If it ain't in the mix hold a candle to your favorite saint and pray for 40 days and 40 nights without food and water, maybe a miracle will happen........What u need to have is a real good bass drum or bass with good dynamics in it...mid-range/mid-hi/top end freqs. won't do sh*t for speakers to jump... oh yeah, here is another way to make speakers jump, turn off your amp, turn ur knob volume all the way up, now turn it on...

[macc]

+ 10dB @ 2kHz should do it.

[KyleDiSanto]

When I say jump....I mean more "In Your Face" .


The jump you guys are refering too would be more Punch to me ha ha ha...you know...when you see those speakers really start to move.


I'm talking more about the "up front" sound.

[toppart]

Slam the L2

Try sidechain compression on elements that are clashing if its a busy mix. Then when all instruments have separation and depth, slam the limiter

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

I should note that I don't really have this issue for things I've mixed because I have control over achieving that "in your face sound." But for out of house Mixes that I'm mastering...I feel I do pretty good at getting things more present and in your face, but....I'm still searching for a little more of that.

Its the main reason i never pursued a career in mastering even thought the opportunity was always there.

There is nothing more frustrating than hearing the potential of mixes that you know could be better if it had the right person doing it. You can only compensate or process 2 tracks but so much.

Its that feeling of being "sonically handcuffed" based on what you are given.

Mixing gives you much more control and freedom for expression/development within the frame work.

Its why not everyone engineer is meant to be an ME or a a really good mixing guy.

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

I'm feeling its more of an EQ thing than compression/limiting one....

Any tips/suggestions for getting that more in your face sound?

THANKS!

The feeling or lack there of is that the mix isn't maximizing the production. If you want things to really "jump out" in the master they have be to already "jumping out" in the mix.

Trust me an Andy Wallace, Lord Alge, Alan Moulder or Randy Staub mix is already jumping through the speakers by the time it gets to Ted Jensen, Vlado Meller or Brian Gardner.

[It'sJoeAgain]

Kyle, all jokes put aside i think ur problem maybe monitoring not processing...Thethrillfactor has also made the same point, if it ain't in the mix.........mmm...i don't want to tell the same joke...

[soundgeezer]

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

I'm feeling its more of an EQ thing than compression/limiting one....

You might be right, as compression/limiting puts things more in the back of a mix ... but as already mentioned above this should be done in the mixing stage

[KyleDiSanto]

Hey Guys,

I really do appreciate the advice and discussions...really gets one to think, ya know?


My monitoring is right where it needs to be at this point in time...and I reference ALOT.

Like I said, my Mixes are FINE.

I think "thethrillfactor" hit the nail on the head with how I am feeling....it's like, "Damn, if only I could...." But what can one do? Guess I'll have to take the Stoic approach and just accept things on this one!

[donsolo]

Noone mentioned upward expansion?

Usually, I find that very dry sounds jump out of speakers and wet (read: reverb) seems to settle into the background a bit, with upward expansion (multi-band) you can actually suppress some of the reverb ness out of it...some.

Also, do you do much Mid/Side compression? I find that the Side stuff jumps a lot more than mid no matter how much you ask it to.

[Joe_caithness]

I've heard running it through an L2, L1, L3, L3, L2, then once more through an L3 does the trick?

if you get the order wrong it sounds terrible!!!!!!

[doug hazelrigg]

Maybe I'm just a reactionary or a contrarian, but excessive limiting KILLS punch , especially bass and drums. Anymore, I just run my meters into the red and use just a tad of bus compression (I also check my mixes on multiple systems, incl iPod, to make sure they're translating). A few overs doesn't hurt anything

Also, I've found that boosting too much top end actually makes the sound seem strangely distant and doesn't really help make a mix "jump"

[KyleDiSanto]

Joe...that was funny hahaha....

Doug...ya I totally agree that Too much Limiting Kills the Punch.

I actually was experimenting with some M/S processing today and got some interesting results.

[Xplizit]

perhaps the "invisible compression" technique on the drums might help...bounce down your drum track, really limit the shit outta it to bring out the "sound" of the drums, shelf eq the bottom end, mix it back in with your drum track for taste...I think this is the sound ur looking for...x...

[lucey]

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

My monitoring is right where it needs to be at this point in time...and I reference ALOT.

Like I said, my Mixes are FINE.

If the mixes are good and the monitoring is good, it's the mastering killing the mix.

Or the mixes are not as good as you think they are.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

....it's like, "Damn, if only I could...." But what can one do?

It's usually about maximizing and bringing forward anything that's going to affect the recording in a positive way, and minimizing anything that is affecting the recording in a wrong way or doing not much at all if that's what's called for. ...making everything congeal...Making the right judgment calls then being able to implement them effectively.

Sometimes you can sandbag a cut with a grabby analog compressor to make it "jump", but there's only so much you can do before everything starts to head south.

[Adam Dempsey]

All else being equal, if it is a mastering thing, it could simply be midrange.

Originally Posted by donsolo

I find that the Side stuff jumps a lot more than mid no matter how much you ask it to.

Strange.. out of phase information typically (naturally) has far less dynamic range than the sum signal.

[masterizer]

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

When I say jump....I mean more "In Your Face" .


The jump you guys are refering too would be more Punch to me ha ha ha...you know...when you see those speakers really start to move.


I'm talking more about the "up front" sound.

Try Parallel Compression on the drums especially, then add a master bus compressor like the SSL or impact on the master fader with the gr at 4db or less. If you get it right your mix will sound similar to the in your face mixes of today. Get your mix to sound how you want, then mastering will be easy.

[space2012]

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

When I say jump....I mean more "In Your Face" .

The jump you guys are refering too would be more Punch to me ha ha ha...you know...when you see those speakers really start to move.

I'm talking more about the "up front" sound.

when i heard an analog recorded, analog mixed song, "AAD" a .wav from Bob Marley - Is this Love , legend cd. or michael jackson dangerous cd, or others...
with a 1ppm clock, good cables and clean stable power,
vs.
standard int. clock like digi002r, RME SteadyClock(TM), Lynx SynchoLock(TM), or even betters like Alesis Ai-2 with +/-50ppm

with the: <1ppm clock
some AAD songs feels like the music gets louder, its right there in the edge of the loudspeaker, and its just about to come out of the speaker, to burst, to popout, feels so in "your face"/"in your speakers", so intense, so loud, much more accurate, transparent, detailed, real.

if you want to have more in your face, you should get a better clock, cables, and power.
but not all clocks makes converters to sound the same. and not all converters work better with ext.clock.
Jitter!!! please let me listen some!!!

more in your face starts from the ADC & clock.

[backindauk]

Originally Posted by space2012

when i heard an analog recorded, analog mixed song, "AAD" a .wav from Bob Marley - Is this Love , legend cd. or michael jackson dangerous cd, or others...
with a 1ppm clock, good cables and clean stable power,
vs.
standard int. clock like digi002r, RME SteadyClock(TM), Lynx SynchoLock(TM), or even betters like Alesis Ai-2 with +/-50ppm

with the: <1ppm clock
some AAD songs feels like the music gets louder, its right there in the edge of the loudspeaker, and its just about to come out of the speaker, to burst, to popout, feels so in "your face"/"in your speakers", so intense, so loud, much more accurate, transparent, detailed, real.

if you want to have more in your face, you should get a better clock, cables, and power.
but not all clocks makes converters to sound the same. and not all converters work better with ext.clock.
Jitter!!! please let me listen some!!!

more in your face starts from the ADC & clock.

I disagree with you space2012. I could create punchy, enjoyable mixes with a Delta 44 from M-Audio - multiplexed converters and low quality clock by any standard. I was also using cheap as chips hosa cables.

People have made chart topping music with virtually no gear and certainly no wanky cables or digital clocks. Look at Eric Prydz for example, he uses Logic 5 on a crappy PC laptop and produces music that i can only dream of creating.

Instead of wasting money on more gear - go and spend some money taking a course on sound engineering. Do a certificate or a diploma or whatever you have available to you.

I would then spend money improving your monitoring if any money was to be spent on gear/studio. You can't fix what you can't hear.

And it goes without saying:

It's the ears, not the gear!

[aleatoric]

try a 0.5 to 2dB boost around the 1k area with a really wide Q. the massive passive really excels in this range but use whatever you got. could help, could not, depends on the source material, worth trying though, in many situations this can really help thing jump out/open up a bit more.

[KyleDiSanto]

aleatoric....Thanks for the advice. I;ve seen alot of Massive Passives @ some big Mastering Places here in NYC with that EXACT setting


Great advice here on getting mixes to be more "up front"...

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by masterizer

Try Parallel Compression on the drums especially, then add a master bus compressor like the SSL or impact on the master fader with the gr at 4db or less. If you get it right your mix will sound similar to the in your face mixes of today. Get your mix to sound how you want, then mastering will be easy.

Myslef I always find it more difficult to mix with 2 BUS compression as without.
Also it takes away base range and I dont like this.... I tried so many times to get it right with 2 Bus compression.

But thats just me I find it easier and less dangerous to make a mix jump.
Also it is not easy to set up a 2 Bus Compressor that it works right....I always feel unsure when I am using one...no good point to start a mix....for me they are a bad idea...

[lucey]

Any mixing technique can be used to make a mix that jumps. Parallel, 8 buss comp, 2 mix comp, no 2 mix comp, etc. The technique is not the problem or the solution.

Unless you need a parametric eq to notch a kick drum and you only have a semi parametric or a graphic eq that's not working for your frequency points, then gear is not the problem either.

2 mix eqs are a way to get things going quickly, but it's not 'needed' to make a mix jump by any stretch.

[chironomidae]

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

So in my belief that we are always learning and getting better at what we do.....

My next challenge for myself is to get my mixes or well...masters to JUMP out of the speakers a little bit more.

I'm not talking about a "technical" or "on paper" loudness thing per se---- more so a perceived loudness....you know, the kind where two masters may "look the same" and peak the same, but obviously one is more in your face than the other.

I should note that I don't really have this issue for things I've mixed because I have control over achieving that "in your face sound." But for out of house Mixes that I'm mastering...I feel I do pretty good at getting things more present and in your face, but....I'm still searching for a little more of that.

I'm feeling its more of an EQ thing than compression/limiting one....

Any tips/suggestions for getting that more in your face sound?

THANKS!

The plethora of responses on this thread, each one different from the last, should indicate that there is no one solution to your problem. If mastering was as simple as "to achieve desired result x, dial in parameter y", then robots would have taken over the industry long ago.

If your music isn't doing what you want it to be doing, you need to be able to tell why. Without being able to identify the problem, how could anyone provide a solution?

Imagine that you are a doctor and your song is a sick patient. The symptom is lack of "jump" or "presence". The other ME's in this threads listed several possible cures, but until you can diagnose the underlying disease causing the lack of presence, how could you pick the correct cure? And if you do solve this problem, the next time you run into the same problem it might take a completely different solution - same symptom, different disease, different cure.

I feel a bit like a hypocrite posting this, because I really hate it when people post very vague responses to specific questions on this forum. But I do think this is a helpful way of thinking. Instead of thinking, "What can I do to add presence?" it is much more helpful to think, "what is obscuring the presence in this track, and what can I do about it?"

[lerone]

Originally Posted by toppart

Slam the L2

Try sidechain compression on elements that are clashing if its a busy mix. Then when all instruments have separation and depth, slam the limiter

Slamming an L2 is really not the way to get a mix to jump out of the loudspeakers. Really it isn't.

[mixmixmix]

Old trick for "jumping out" effect.

Take intro to the song which is mixed well already, then lower volume of this intro by few db's, ( you have to experiment here), so when following section comes in , there is sharp contrast( sudden change) in loudness beetween intro and following section. Now This following section will sound huge ("jump out")

Check out Daft Punk "Music sounds better with you","One More Time", the way they filter they intros / breakdown sections. Other dance outfits as well. It is used in all styles, rock as well.

Filter the whole sections and/or play with overall volume of the section, you can automate it as well.