How to bring up levels

[ves]

i have the habit to mix everything very low, and i was wondering what would be the best way to make it louder (i am not asking about compression, but actual gain levels). I am mixing in the box so is it ok just to insert a gain vst (utility) in the master or normalize the rendered file?
I am sorry for the poor English.

[HookedOnHardware]

I think you are in the wrong thread... I'm sure doing a search will get you some answers .

[masterizer]

Originally Posted by ves

i have the habit to mix everything very low, and i was wondering what would be the best way to make it louder (i am not asking about compression, but actual gain levels). I am mixing in the box so is it ok just to insert a gain vst (utility) in the master or normalize the rendered file?
I am sorry for the poor English.

You can adjust the gain levels, you're DAW will probably let you push it into the red, but how far you can push it before there is audible clipping varies on every system. Use your ears! There are lots of threads on getting hot levels, loudness wars and why you shouldn't normalize. If you have a limiter (or compressor that you can adjust to a high ratio), adding 1-2db of limiting will bring up the overall level as well.

[chironomidae]

I think what he means is, what is the best method to increase gain ITB? For instance, I've read that you should never boost a signal with a (cheap) mixer because they're much better at attenuating than boosting. Does the same apply to a DAW? Would it be best to just keep the levels low and then use a limiter such as an L2 to increase the level? Or should the levels be higher before the limiter?

[Jesse Graffam]

-a- you should never limit when mixing unless it's for creative purposes, and i mean on a track by track basis kind of thing. try some intense hard compression on an AUX bus, and mix it in very low (like under -40dB) and see if that gives you the additional sound/gel/vibe/air/warmth/etc you want.

-b- levels should definitely be up in the mix, and you should never use anything in the master FX section of your daw simply to bring up levels. even if you have a superb mixing engine like Reaper v3 has... 64-bit with 8-byte float (and properly implemented too i might add).

-c- re: -b-... at the same time, you should never have to use a plugin for attenuation to bring down the levels in your master output. in a properly implimented mix engine, the master fader will be part of the mixing calculations itself, and not done after the fact. i can't say for sure that all mixing engines have the master fader as part of the process. there possibly is a few out there that have a master fader that attenuates AFTER the audio has been mixed. you can tell by using a bitscope:
Bitter | Stillwell Audio - It's About The Sound
and messing around with different configurations of the master fader, and output resolution (aka bit depth). I'm sure there's probably 2-3 topics around here about how to do that, use the search function.

[ves]

Originally Posted by chironomidae

I think what he means is, what is the best method to increase gain ITB? For instance, I've read that you should never boost a signal with a (cheap) mixer because they're much better at attenuating than boosting. Does the same apply to a DAW? Would it be best to just keep the levels low and then use a limiter such as an L2 to increase the level? Or should the levels be higher before the limiter?

that's exactly what i am asking.

[wado1942]

Any level change in a DAW will add distortion, whether it's an increase or decrease. How much distortion has almost completely to do with how well the software engineers did their homework. I did some tests against 3 different pieces of software, all working in 32-bit floating point ranging from $75-$800. Believe it or not, the $800 software increased the distortion by 10dB or so just with a level increase of .2dB. The $300 software hardly added any distortion with a .2dB level change. The $75 software added just a little more distortion than the $300 software but no where near as much as the $800 software.. The best thing to do is figure out which of your software/plugins add the least distortion for simple level changes and use that.

Of course, I'd consider it a good thing to mix at a low level. Don't worry about bringing up the levels until the mastering stage. You'll just have a single stereo track to handle instead of dozens. It does no harm to save that till a later stage and you can concentrate more on getting a good mix rather than using up all your head room.

[chironomidae]

Originally Posted by uncajesse

-a- you should never limit when mixing unless it's for creative purposes, and i mean on a track by track basis kind of thing. try some intense hard compression on an AUX bus, and mix it in very low (like under -40dB) and see if that gives you the additional sound/gel/vibe/air/warmth/etc you want.

Thank you for the input, although I want to mention that I considered this question from the point of view of someone learning to master. He may be mastering his own mix, which of course is a no-no - but sometimes when you're learning, it's the only material you have to work with.

[lucey]

Level at any stage is a function of good eq ...frequency energy balance, and, good transient to compression balance.

[korbes]

Originally Posted by wado1942

I did some tests against 3 different pieces of software, all working in 32-bit floating point ranging from $75-$800.

Could you please name the software? I'd be very interested in your results.
If for whatever reason you do not want to call names publicly, a pm would also be appreciated. Thank you.

[cooker]

Originally Posted by korbes

Could you please name the software? I'd be very interested in your results.
If for whatever reason you do not want to call names publicly, a pm would also be appreciated. Thank you.

+1 also about testing, also how did you do the tests?

[DaydreamInSound]

I used to mix low too, using subtractive mixing and kind of slotting everything 'down' into the mix - finding sometimes I'd be peaking at -20 or so on the master.

My simple workaround when I found I'd mixed like this...

Set your master to unity gain (Zero) first.

Group ALL your tracks into a single group.

Push one fader up and watch them all increase equally, retaining your mix and balance, until you are happy with the levels you're getting on the master.

Be sure to do it whilst watching your individual track meters (with post-fader metering), to make sure you're not pushing things higher than you should.

One point to note though is that you will have to adjust any compressors you have on auxes, as you'll be sending more signal to these and squashing the sound more, so you'll have to reduce the input on the compressor.

As long as you keep an eye on your auxes and levels it should be fine, i havent noticed anything untoward doing this.

[cooker]

Originally Posted by DaydreamInSound

I used to mix low too, using subtractive mixing and kind of slotting everything 'down' into the mix - finding sometimes I'd be peaking at -20 or so on the master.

My simple workaround when I found I'd mixed like this...

Set your master to unity gain (Zero) first.

Group ALL your tracks into a single group.

Push one fader up and watch them all increase equally, retaining your mix and balance, until you are happy with the levels you're getting on the master.

Be sure to do it whilst watching your individual track meters (with post-fader metering), to make sure you're not pushing things higher than you should.

One point to note though is that you will have to adjust any compressors you have on auxes, as you'll be sending more signal to these and squashing the sound more, so you'll have to reduce the input on the compressor.

As long as you keep an eye on your auxes and levels it should be fine, i havent noticed anything untoward doing this.

I'm not sure what difference would this make to just insert a plug-in on master (set 0) and adding gain with it. Maybe while adjusting the sends the end result gets better?

The first thing thats told to a newbie is never to normalize (to any lvl) a track while mastering but adding simple gain from DAW or plug-in isn't different than that (since normalize works by gain).

I'd understand this should be easyer with a hardware chain but in DAW I feel there should be a healthyer way (or combinations) to simply increase the lvl. when needed (perhaps a limiter that doesn't peak, eq, expand...). I guess I should start testing for myself (but how?).

[chironomidae]

Originally Posted by cooker

I'm not sure what difference would this make to just insert a plug-in on master (set 0) and adding gain with it. Maybe while adjusting the sends the end result gets better?

I think the difference is that his method removes attenuation and adds only minimal gain. If you had a signal that was being attenuated, it would be better to remove the attenuation and add only minimal gain rather than add gain to an already attenuated signal.

[wado1942]

You know, the mic you put on the guitar or where you sit in the room makes far greater difference on the overall sound quality than how you change your gain during mixing.

Could you please name the software? I'd be very interested in your results.

No, I can't do that publicly because the research is for a book. I want it to stay objectively about THINKING rather than specific examples.

My test was simple, I recorded some tones and analyzed them. I then amplified them by .2dB and retested them against my original results. I also used 32-bit digitally generated sine waves to eliminate the converters from the equation.

[cooker]

Thanks, I'll also make my own test according to that.

[korbes]

Originally Posted by cooker

Thanks, I'll also make my own test according to that.

+1

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by chironomidae

If you had a signal that was being attenuated, it would be better to remove the attenuation and add only minimal gain rather than add gain to an already attenuated signal.

A bit like the common mis-use of compression....

[okydoky]

Originally Posted by ves

i have the habit to mix everything very low,

hi,

that would be the root of the problem.


right.