transparent gain

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

I have observed over time that the fancy resistor crowd tends to claim superiority when working with tubes more often than solid state. I'm guessing that resistor differences are more pronounced in high impedance circuits. I of course have not done the leg work myself.

I think that noise of high source resistance or impedance is the primary issue there. For example, tube microphone manufacturers need a high gigohm resistor at the grid of the input tube and its construction (I hear) is very critical. As far as the influence of distortion such as dielectric distortion, and questions about Holco versus something more ordinary, you have to consider the relative impedances in the circuit. That's why I think that if a steel end cap adds some distortion to a resistor, that it would be far more significant if the resistor were 1000 ohms and it was a gain-determining resistor than if it were 10000 ohms. It seems to me. But I haven't done the legwork either! If I had the time to test every theory on every box I build I wouldn't have time to master. Every intern I bring in has to know how to solder, too!

[space2012]

Originally Posted by krytikal1

i'm looking for a really transparent stereo or dual mono gain stage in my chain. something with extremely high headroom, and stepped or easily repeatable settings. it would be the last thing in my chain if i wanted to make up gain into the converter. either to allow a lower level through the chain for a smoother ride, or a higher level into the converter for more artifacts . i'd love for it to be unoticable (if possible) if it were left inline but not in use. i really don't need more than a couple db, but up to 6 would be cool.

i don't mind diy, and i'm not necessarily looking at a console.....but am open to any suggestions. i'm farely happy with what i have, but always looking for other color.....or in this case, lack thereof.


thanks,

k

Aphex Dominator ][ 720
APHEX Systems 720 / 722 Dominator II Precision Multiband Peak Limiter

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Aha. Now I remember. The leads of the Holco resistors are not attracted to a magnet. Indicating copper or silver and no steel. Well, the counterclaim could be, if you have a 10 kohm resistor with a 0.1 ohm pair of connection leads....

As with most audiophile claims, it would be trivial to measure if there really were hysteresis or whatever distortion caused by the steel ends. The lead is more like 0.00001 Ohms anyway.

And I do use 2% Silver solder for everything. Actually if you are connecting to a Silver contact (like an XLR pin) you should always use a Silver bearing solder.

DC

[Paul Gold]

Mouser started carrying AIM brand solder. Their silver solder is much less expensive than others. I was using 63/37 but ordered some. I like it. It flows better and is really shiny. The sound is marvelous. Everything is more fluid and shiny sounding.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by lucey

the argument for an active monitor is the gain matching potential of the mix to the master. Or at least getting within a fraction of a db for instant A/B. Both signals go through the same path keeping the comparison more fair than with only the mix going through a gain booster. A gain booster on the mix signal destroys the A/B to a small but real degree. And small matters. As a practice, I'll make sure the mix is on the hot side of that db.

Originally Posted by bob katz

That of course is the real challenge. If the mix played a little louder than the master still sounds worse, then you can feel very comfortable your master is the better one.

I'm not sure if this is the topic of the original post, but these two comments caught my eye. How many ME's are gain matching before and after. Seems like it would be a little over the top as far as validating the decisions of the master?

edit: to be clear, meaning precise gain matching through the whole process. Beginning through end.
I'll start in the beginning, but not sweat it so much later on...but be in the ballpark in either direction.

[inlinenl]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

I'm not sure if this is the topic of the original post, but these two comments caught my eye. How many ME's are gain matching before and after. Seems like it would be a little over the top as far as validating the decisions of master?

I know I'm doing it almost all the time,when making sound-decisions/ setting / finding the sound the projects needs in real time with the croockwood console .... after the first capture .. lining up and volume match the original and processed one in the montage .... after the sound has settled ... it's not that much anymore ... more focussed on the balance between the versions/tracks ...

once in a while I just throw and slam a software limiter on a track and then A/B it to my mastered versions .... quite interresting ....

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

Mouser started carrying AIM brand solder. Their silver solder is much less expensive than others. I was using 63/37 but ordered some. I like it. It flows better and is really shiny.

It really is better even for just general use. They only thing to watch out for is that a lousy connection still looks shiny.

The sound is marvelous. Everything is more fluid and shiny sounding.

I have some custom cables you might be interested in.


DC

[lucey]

If we're getting into solder, Cardas quad is the best balance of 4 metals I know of, and not too bad on the $ either.

[turtlerock]

Originally Posted by lucey

If we're getting into solder, Cardas quad is the best balance of 4 metals I know of, and not too bad on the $ either.

i have been using mundorf supreme 9/% silver gold for about six months , i have no idea how it sounds ...but it tins and flows like i am an expert , starts and stays shiney and is lead free , so read that as unlike the standard lead free stuff it works and even has sane smell
.
the audiofool crowd covet it so it must sound magical .
its dearer then standard solder by a huge amount , but really at $70 for the really big roll in the scheme of things its cheap .

oh yeah i bought a new iron to use it which i should have done 20 years ago .
"some times you don't do the obvious because its just too obvious "

[krytikal1]

side track back into the gain circuit before we go on with solder.........

what is the ideal impedance be for a potentiometer in that location?



ok.....back to solder....what is the best silver ratio....2%, 9%... is 100% silver just too expensive, or does it lose it's "shiny" sound and properties at some point.

k

[lucey]

Originally Posted by krytikal1

ok.....back to solder....what is the best silver ratio....2%, 9%... is 100% silver just too expensive, or does it lose it's "shiny" sound and properties at some point.

k

George Cardas' cables are not my style, but he knows his solder ...


Solder

Q.) I'd like to know what makes Cardas solder better than all other solders for audio work. What advantage does Cardas solder have over other eutectic solders that makes it worth its much higher price? On the one hand, there is Jennifer of Jena Labs claiming that no other solder should ever be used, and on the other hand there are people in DIY chat rooms that say these exotic audiophile solders are a waste of money and no better than products like Kester. Thanks for your response. - Michael

A.) Hi Michael. The vast majority of solders in the world are slurries or mixtures such as 60/40 tin lead solder. They go through a slurry stage as they solidify wherein one component solidifies first and then another. The result is a solder connection rather than a joint. Eutectic solders such as Kesters Ultra pure Tin/lead Silver are in fact excellent because they solidify at a temperature lower than any of the component parts thus they form a solder joint rather than a connection - the key here is the eutectic formula which must be very precise - the solders are obviously different in that they set up with a mirror finish rather than a dull finish, the reason they do this is because they solidify as a unit. The week link in the solders is contamination - the molten solder easily dissolves other metals, this is no problem if you are soldering to a metal that is part of the eutectic mixture (such as tin or lead) you will get contiguous flow right in to the joint (easy to see) but if you solder to a dissimilar metal (such as copper or silver) you will see an obvious dulling at the connection where the eutectic formula fails and and the continuous joint becomes a connection. Cardas Quad Eutectic is tin, lead silver, copper, eutectic. The results are obvious. Most highend products use this solder and other cable manufactures have been using it for over a decade - to them it represents good sound and absolute reliability. - George


Quadeutectic

Q.) What is Quadeutectic solder? What percentage of each element does it contain; tin, silver, lead, copper?

A.) It is tin, lead, silver, copper eutectic. 61/35/3/1 is the approximate ratio. The key is a ratio that has several decimal points after each number. It is very precise in order to hit the "eutectic point". It took years to pinpoint. - George

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by krytikal1

side track back into the gain circuit before we go on with solder.........

what is the ideal impedance be for a potentiometer in that location?

It depends. Even the worst opamp can drive 2k, some can drive 200 Ohms. 5k is a good starting point.

ok.....back to solder....what is the best silver ratio....2%, 9%... is 100% silver just too expensive, or does it lose it's "shiny" sound and properties at some point.

2% Silver is used is many applications other than audio, where things actually have to work.

I would steer well clear of any solder "designed" for audio.


DC

[krytikal1]

Originally Posted by dcollins

It depends. Even the worst opamp can drive 2k, some can drive 200 Ohms. 5k is a good starting point.

figure at this place in the chain, it is only ever going to see my converters. does that make a difference depending on the converter......or do they pretty much have the same resistance. thanks dave.


k

[krytikal1]

interesting. was that off of the website?

Originally Posted by lucey

George Cardas' cables are not my style, but he knows his solder ...


Solder

Q.) I'd like to know what makes Cardas solder better than all other solders for audio work. What advantage does Cardas solder have over other eutectic solders that makes it worth its much higher price? On the one hand, there is Jennifer of Jena Labs claiming that no other solder should ever be used, and on the other hand there are people in DIY chat rooms that say these exotic audiophile solders are a waste of money and no better than products like Kester. Thanks for your response. - Michael

A.) Hi Michael. The vast majority of solders in the world are slurries or mixtures such as 60/40 tin lead solder. They go through a slurry stage as they solidify wherein one component solidifies first and then another. The result is a solder connection rather than a joint. Eutectic solders such as Kesters Ultra pure Tin/lead Silver are in fact excellent because they solidify at a temperature lower than any of the component parts thus they form a solder joint rather than a connection - the key here is the eutectic formula which must be very precise - the solders are obviously different in that they set up with a mirror finish rather than a dull finish, the reason they do this is because they solidify as a unit. The week link in the solders is contamination - the molten solder easily dissolves other metals, this is no problem if you are soldering to a metal that is part of the eutectic mixture (such as tin or lead) you will get contiguous flow right in to the joint (easy to see) but if you solder to a dissimilar metal (such as copper or silver) you will see an obvious dulling at the connection where the eutectic formula fails and and the continuous joint becomes a connection. Cardas Quad Eutectic is tin, lead silver, copper, eutectic. The results are obvious. Most highend products use this solder and other cable manufactures have been using it for over a decade - to them it represents good sound and absolute reliability. - George


Quadeutectic

Q.) What is Quadeutectic solder? What percentage of each element does it contain; tin, silver, lead, copper?

A.) It is tin, lead, silver, copper eutectic. 61/35/3/1 is the approximate ratio. The key is a ratio that has several decimal points after each number. It is very precise in order to hit the "eutectic point". It took years to pinpoint. - George

[lucey]

Yes, that's just lifted from the Cardas site.

Originally Posted by dcollins

I would steer well clear of any solder "designed" for audio.

That's a really dumb thing to suggest. The quad solder I mentioned is designed for audio. What on Earth is your beef?

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by krytikal1

what is the ideal impedance be for a potentiometer in that location?

The ideal impedance would be high enough for the source to drive cleanly and low enough so that the source impedance to the following device (A/D) isn't high enough to alter frequency response.

Generally a 1:10 source to load impedance is desired.

This means you have to do it carefully because only a really beefy amplifier will be able to drive a load 10x lower than the load impedance. Integrating passives into a modern voltage transfer system is tricky.

[zenmastering]

I used to notice resistor differences in high-gain tube guitar amp modifications. Because the metal film resistors have a low (~100V) max. applied voltage, I'd have to use small parallel/series networks for plate resistance. There were slightly different noise levels and 'tones' with different brands/designs, even within the world of metal-film. Of course, this is worlds away from the linearity that I think we're discussing here, but that's where I first noticed a difference.

Roderstein (quasi 'garden-variety') were readily available and worked well.

Graemme

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

I have observed over time that the fancy resistor crowd tends to claim superiority when working with tubes more often than solid state. I'm guessing that resistor differences are more pronounced in high impedance circuits. I of course have not done the leg work myself.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

Mouser started carrying AIM brand solder. Their silver solder is much less expensive than others. I was using 63/37 but ordered some. I like it. It flows better and is really shiny. The sound is marvelous. Everything is more fluid and shiny sounding.

Thanks for the tip on Mouser! I'm running out of Silver solder.

So, what kind of solder do you all use on Neutrik Gold?

BK

[Paul Gold]

I use the Nickel/Silver Neutrik. Most gear uses Nickel/Silver so it makes sense to use the same. On old gear I replace the connector if it's too tarnished.

[phild]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

Try to get hold of a pair of Neuman R75's and hook them up to a 24 volt power supply.
These have half db steps for input and output gain and are really transparent.
They sound killer!

I believe George Marino uses these to hammer his ADC.

I've worked with George - could you elaborate a bit further on the R75? (I don't know what it is)
Is this a i/o line stage module for a Neumann SP75 console?

If he has one it's not visible

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by phild

Is this a i/o line stage module for a Neumann SP75 console?

Yes, the SP75 and SP79. It's the module with the zillion position switches that move to carbon? tracks at the bottom of the throw for smooth fades to silence. It's a seriously nice switch. The rest of the module, ehh... I replaced the LF356's with OPA134's which helped. Mine need calibration every month or so. The whole damn (SP75) console needs to be calibrated monthly. Even with a full rebuild.

[phild]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

Yes, the SP75 and SP79. It's the module with the zillion position switches that move to carbon? tracks at the bottom of the throw for smooth fades to silence. It's a seriously nice switch. The rest of the module, ehh... I replaced the LF356's with OPA134's which helped. Mine need calibration every month or so. The whole damn (SP75) console needs to be calibrated monthly. Even with a full rebuild.

Paul Gold.... Mastering Engineer. My kinda guy.

Does anyone have a *nice* picture of this thing?

I'm pretty sure GM isn't using one since moving to the Chelsea location.