Versatile Limiter?

[pianokeys]

Hello,

I'm doing some mid-level mastering these days but still mixing outboard with plug-ins - in my ideal world it would all be analog.

My current chain is Crane Song HEDD D/A, A-Designs Hammer EQ, TK BC1 Bus Comp, HEDD A/D, Plug-ins for extra gain (mostly to catch peaks - so acting as a limiter - affecting only transient material that jumps an extra 4-6 db.

Perhaps in that the plug-in limiter (PSP Vintage Warmer) is "only" affecting the top 6 or so db then spending a few thousand on a nice outboard limiter is not the best use of limited funds - but then again - I always find (personally) that once you render a file with a plug-in - something magic is lost - an element of 3-dimensiality for lack of better words.

So, hoping for advice on a versatile outboard limiter or to be told to keep using plug-ins (in a law of diminishing returns kinda way considering the investment)

I produce, mix, master versatile music - but concentrate mostly on acoustic stuff - drums, bass, piano , guitar - vocals - the softer half of music including folk, pop, jazz, etc. I do not hope to become a mastering specialist - just a capable option for my clients and perhaps gain a few more on a mid-budget for mastering only projects.

I had 15 years experience as an engineer, and mix engineer but limited experience (no pun intended ) as a mastering engineer.

**Note - NOT trying to replace mastering engineers here - not diminish the skill you have all developed over many years - just trying to address a large portion of my clients who feel uncomfortable or financially unable to afford the outsourced mastering engineer - even given the nice benefit of another set of ears. I also see the potential here to do some mastering for clients from other studios - allowing me to be the "other set of ears" (Funny that I should have to make this disclaimer - but I've been on GS a few years now - and I know the kinds of responces people get from innocent questions - haha)

Seriously though, thanks so much everyone!

EDIT - to clarify I am using outboard EQ and compression - then digital plug-in limiting - I know the Vintage Warmer is not a limiter per-say but adjusted correctly acts as one - albeit not a great one - looking for suggestions for outboard analog limiters or good digital plus in ones. I'd imagine I'm looknig for a brick wall type limiter - my current impression is that limiting differs from compression in that it is essentially brick wall vs that which is above a threshold gets compressed to varying degrees with varying attack / release times etc etc.

ESSENTIALY - I already have the sound I want - I just need (sadly) for it to be louder - by a fair margin as these mixes average out way way below norm - and I'm not comparing to slammed masters - just to nice ones I'm averaging out at least 6-10db less post bus compression until the PSP is used.

[Riccardo]

I doubt we will be able to help unless you clarify AT LEAST a couple of things

Originally Posted by pianokeys

mixing outboard with plug-ins - !

?

It is not clear if you are looking for an analogue limiter or a digital brickwall one.

If and I repeat "if" you are looking for a brickwall then it will have to be digital. In the plug ins realm the PSP Vintage Warmer is not a mastering limiter, maybe you meant the Xenon. You could add the Sonnox, Izotope , Voxengo and others to the list.

If you are looking into the digital hardware world the TC System 6000 as well as the Waves L2/Maxx BCL come to mind. I am not sure about the Junger Accent 2 (if anybody uses one around here please let us know). I don't think the Z-sys ever saw the light.



If instead you are looking at limiter (as in compressors/limiters) then choices abound.

[pianokeys]

Riccardo - thank you - I have added an EDIT to the bottom of my original post.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

I'd imagine I'm looking for a brick wall type limiter

ESSENTIALY - I already have the sound I want - I just need (sadly) for it to be louder

This thread gets into the whole "brick wall" thing pretty thoroughly:

Limiter comparisons (with sound)

Limiter's on the whole tend to do one thing, but there are few out there with extra buzzers and whistles.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Hello,

I'm doing some mid-level mastering these days but still mixing outboard with plug-ins - in my ideal world it would all be analog.

My current chain is Crane Song HEDD D/A, A-Designs Hammer EQ, TK BC1 Bus Comp, HEDD A/D, Plug-ins for extra gain (mostly to catch peaks - so acting as a limiter - affecting only transient material that jumps an extra 4-6 db.

Perhaps in that the plug-in limiter (PSP Vintage Warmer) is "only" affecting the top 6 or so db then spending a few thousand on a nice outboard limiter is not the best use of limited funds - but then again - I always find (personally) that once you render a file with a plug-in - something magic is lost - an element of 3-dimensiality for lack of better words.

So, hoping for advice on a versatile outboard limiter or to be told to keep using plug-ins (in a law of diminishing returns kinda way considering the investment)

I produce, mix, master versatile music - but concentrate mostly on acoustic stuff - drums, bass, piano , guitar - vocals - the softer half of music including folk, pop, jazz, etc. I do not hope to become a mastering specialist - just a capable option for my clients and perhaps gain a few more on a mid-budget for mastering only projects.

I had 15 years experience as an engineer, and mix engineer but limited experience (no pun intended ) as a mastering engineer.

**Note - NOT trying to replace mastering engineers here - not diminish the skill you have all developed over many years - just trying to address a large portion of my clients who feel uncomfortable or financially unable to afford the outsourced mastering engineer - even given the nice benefit of another set of ears. I also see the potential here to do some mastering for clients from other studios - allowing me to be the "other set of ears" (Funny that I should have to make this disclaimer - but I've been on GS a few years now - and I know the kinds of responces people get from innocent questions - haha)

Seriously though, thanks so much everyone!

EDIT - to clarify I am using outboard EQ and compression - then digital plug-in limiting - I know the Vintage Warmer is not a limiter per-say but adjusted correctly acts as one - albeit not a great one - looking for suggestions for outboard analog limiters or good digital plus in ones. I'd imagine I'm looknig for a brick wall type limiter - my current impression is that limiting differs from compression in that it is essentially brick wall vs that which is above a threshold gets compressed to varying degrees with varying attack / release times etc etc.

ESSENTIALY - I already have the sound I want - I just need (sadly) for it to be louder - by a fair margin as these mixes average out way way below norm - and I'm not comparing to slammed masters - just to nice ones I'm averaging out at least 6-10db less post bus compression until the PSP is used.

If you already have something close to the sound you want, get a really good set of headphones and push into the AD converter until the mastered audio, ready for capture, is at the volume you want it to be.
Use the headphones to carefully check for distortion.

Back it off a little until you can no longer hear any distortion artifacts.
You may surprise yourself at how much you can get away with by just clipping a good AD converter and not being able to hear it on certain program material.

The distortion will normally be noticed most in the upper mid area and in the sides more than in the middle!
Lookout for things like guitar solo's and double tracked guitars as it's very easy to get these to crackle like hell if you push em too hard, even with certain analog/hardware limiters in place!

Your ears are your most important tool when it comes to setting the final volume of a master that is required by the client to be loud!

Depending on what DAW you are using, you can then drop the ceiling of your captured audio down by 0.1 to 0.3 db, so that downstream meters no longer show red.

This approach will almost definitely sound more dynamic than the use of any lookahead digital limiter and is used by many big name mastering engineers but you will be very hard pushed to get any of em to admit it!

[pianokeys]

That's a VERY cool suggestion -thanks so much

Tonight I've rented an L2 - the hardware version - and running it through the paces.

How many db can one expect to get by way of the method you are suggesting?

My challenge is I need at least 3 more db - preferably 4-5.

(and this is just to sit a db or two below current masters I hear and analyze - I just hate that slammed sound and want to maintain some breathing, dynamics, and space - without being my current 4-6 dbs too low - and thus simply TOO low)

[pianokeys]

Not that this will likely surprise anyone but the L2 hardware KILLS the PSP Vintage Warmer - I mean not even close - I'm hooked onw on getting either a way better plug-in (I know the VIntage isn't really a limiter) or more likely something outboard - digital or analog.

Tonight was a heavenly mix / mastering session with the chain Crane Song HEDD, A Designs Hammer EQ, TK BC1 Bus Comp, Crane Song HEDD, L2 (digital in/out - no dithering) to computer where I dithered using standard Apogee UV22

Anyway....I'm hooked - now to find the right limiter - could it be this very L2? Quite clean transfers your mixes louder - minimal loss or colouration which is cool - but I wonder...

[Table Of Tone]

If you are gonna use a digital limiter, the hardware L2 is among one of the best!

I sold mine a while ago but I couldn't find a plugin that could come close the hardware version and I have pretty much every digital limiter plugin available, including the software L2.
I just don't use any of em anymore so I guess I wasted my money on em!

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

That's a VERY cool suggestion -thanks so much

Tonight I've rented an L2 - the hardware version - and running it through the paces.

How many db can one expect to get by way of the method you are suggesting?

My challenge is I need at least 3 more db - preferably 4-5.

(and this is just to sit a db or two below current masters I hear and analyze - I just hate that slammed sound and want to maintain some breathing, dynamics, and space - without being my current 4-6 dbs too low - and thus simply TOO low)

Just to give you an idea.

Checkout the latest AC/DC record.
That's in the red even before the drums kick in!
You can hear the "Stardust" (crackle) straight away on Malcolm's intro guitar, on the first tune.
There is also a little "Slam Dunk" from the kick drum on that tune.

Apart from that, I'm not alone in thinking that, that album sounds really good, for a record that loud.

No limiter anywhere in sight!

Stellar mixes though!

[pianokeys]

Ok likely down to Pendulum PL-2 vs Waves L2 (Hardware - not using the AD/DA - only as digital limiting)

Thoughts anyone?

Wanting as described above in detail from my limiter.

[zenmastering]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

... I am not sure about the Junger Accent 2 (if anybody uses one around here please let us know).

I can confirm that the Junger Audio 'Accent 2' does have a brickwall limiter, amongst it's other goodies.

Best,

Graemme

[zenmastering]

From your first post it appears that you need better/more bus compression options, not necessarily a limiter.

Really, I rarely use even 4dB of brickwall limiting and I can make things plenty loud.

I use a Pendulum PL-2; it's nothing like a Waves L2. Getting big levels is a game of inches, sometimes requiring a little bit from each of a few different processors. Having said that, it's still more about the original tracking and mix than just the mastering.

For digital brickwall limiters, I like the Flux Pure II and PSP Xenon.

Graemme

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Ok likely down to Pendulum PL-2 vs Waves L2 (Hardware - not using the AD/DA - only as digital limiting)

Thoughts anyone?

Wanting as described above in detail from my limiter.

[lerone]

Sonnox limiter & the inflator. You can reach absolutely ridiculous percieved loudness with ease (providing the tracks are capable of reaching those levels of course...). Are you clipping your converters btw? (can't believe shredding is even a practice, christ )

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by lerone

Sonnox limiter & the inflator. You can reach absolutely ridiculous percieved loudness with ease (providing the tracks are capable of reaching those levels of course...). Are you clipping your converters btw? (can't believe shredding is even a practice, christ )

What do you think a Sonnox limiter is doing?
Look at the waveform after you've got that perceived loudness!

[lerone]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

What do you think a Sonnox limiter is doing?
Look at the waveform after you've got that perceived loudness!

errrr, im not mentally impared mate. I just dont really like clipping my ad unless I have too, i know it can be more transparent than traditional limiting but.... Theres alot of complex algorythms working under the hood of those two.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by lerone

errrr, im not mentally impared mate. I just dont really like clipping my ad unless I have too, i know it can be more transparent than traditional limiting but.... Theres alot of complex algorythms working under the hood of those two.

There is nothing special about either of em!

The sonnox limiter is just another lookahead limiter/snare vampire/dynamics killer, plugin!
(The hardware L2 sounds better than that! I guess there's more DSP available)

The sonnox inflater is just digital tape saturation.
(Again, the algorithms are not complex enough to nail that)

The sonnox supresser, on the other hand, is a really useful de-esser plugin.

I'm not saying you are mentally impaired mate!
But you are talking as if no ME has ever pushed an ADC before.

Cheers

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by lerone

errrr, im not mentally impared mate. I just dont really like clipping my ad unless I have too, i know it can be more transparent than traditional limiting but.... Theres alot of complex algorythms working under the hood of those two.

I don't think it's useful to differentiate so strongly between clipping and limiting (where clipping is evil and limiting is good). The transition is seamless... and the Sonnox limiter is pretty "clippy" in most settings (which may even be why many like it so much).

[pianokeys]

I keep hearing how different the L2 is from the PL-2 - I'm really wondering in what way?

Also - it should be known that when I talk of 4db gain reduction - I only mean in the absolute peaks of the song - a few crashed in choruses etc - transients really - I love slower bus compression set to 30 or even 60 ms attack - better glue sound to me but lets transients through - this is why to me the L2 worked well - grabbing up to 4db once in a while only otherwise doing nothing or maybe 1-2 db.

I've just heard great things about the PL-2 - I for sure want outboard either hardware or analog - I've never heard a plug-in compete especially in the low end.

[Ben F]

You may find an outboard vari-mu compressor (like the vintage warmer is modelled on) will help bring the RMS level up quite a bit. In my experience you want to use a limiter as least as possible. It's better to drive the track harder with a compressor, I'm not meaning compressing it more but driving the compressor harder. At higher gain a vari-mu compressor acts like a peak limiter anyway.

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

I keep hearing how different the L2 is from the PL-2 - I'm really wondering in what way?

Also - it should be known that when I talk of 4db gain reduction - I only mean in the absolute peaks of the song - a few crashed in choruses etc - transients really - I love slower bus compression set to 30 or even 60 ms attack - better glue sound to me but lets transients through - this is why to me the L2 worked well - grabbing up to 4db once in a while only otherwise doing nothing or maybe 1-2 db.

I've just heard great things about the PL-2 - I for sure want outboard either hardware or analog - I've never heard a plug-in compete especially in the low end.

I use the PL-2 WITH one of the L2, PSP or Massey 2007 limiters. I doubt if you'll ever get the volume you want with just the PL-2. Remember that it is an analog limiter.

Like many mastering engineers, I used the L2 exclusively for years but now I pick from those digital limiters mentioned above as each one affects the sound in a different way.

I have the L2 hardware and plug-in and unfortunately have spent hundreds of dollars over several years fixing the hardware unit. It is the most unreliable unit in my studio! That is why I bought the plug-in a few years ago, to still have a limiter during the downtime.

The L2 broke again about a month ago and it's just sitting while I run through my digital limiters to see what sounds best for each track.

I also disagree with the poster who says the software doesn't sound nearly as good. This sound may be affected by the choice/age of computer or DAW but in my set-up I've done null tests (almost perfect) and ear tests (easy to do as one can hit the bypass on the plug-in and hardware unit simutaneously to hear the differences) and I'm not sure I can really hear the difference.

So when the L2 came out with an unlinked model, I got that upgrade and the hardware is just sitting doing nothing until I decide whether to blow another couple of hundred or sell it as is!

[pianokeys]

Thanks Andy - very interesting - I don't have much experience with software limiting aside from the vintage warmer (which is more of a compression emulator as I've learned) but I will say that the L2 hardware performed FAR better

What is also interesting is that sure enough the right channel of analog output wasn't working on the model I rented - hmm

I guess I just can't see the advantage of spending serious coin on something like the pendulum after a bus compressor and then still have to use software limiting.

When you say remember it is an analog limiter - do you mean that as such it begins to do unpleasant things to the master when more than say 2 dbs are being reduced? If so why spend almost 3K on it????

Again though if limiting is only being applied once in a while to catch transients that got through the slower bus compressor - shouldn't I be able to expect to gain more than 2 db on a nice outboard unit?

I'm confused - certainly to my ears the L2 worked well grabbing fast transients and adding 3-5 db to each mix I did through it. (though I have nothing to compare it to- I'll say my mixes sounded good through it - as in similar to what they were before they went through it)

As always, in my inexperience at this aspect of studio work - I humbly listen and learn...

[pianokeys]

Let me simplify - someone please chime in and let me know if this makes sense

Bus comp - slow attack to let it breathe and not get too pumpy (acoustic music well recorded - want to maintain stereo image etc) Still some nice compression resulting in softer details being audible and instruments feeling more "together"

then

Limiter - ultra fast attack but only catching transient signals that go through the bus compressor - so never dropping sections only hits

potential result = gently compressed "glued" mix with some extra gain.

I know it isn't this simple - but doesn't this make sense?

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Andy Krehm

I use the PL-2 WITH one of the L2, PSP or Massey 2007 limiters. I doubt if you'll ever get the volume you want with just the PL-2. Remember that it is an analog limiter.

Like many mastering engineers, I used the L2 exclusively for years but now I pick from those digital limiters mentioned above as each one affects the sound in a different way.

I have the L2 hardware and plug-in and unfortunately have spent hundreds of dollars over several years fixing the hardware unit. It is the most unreliable unit in my studio! That is why I bought the plug-in a few years ago, to still have a limiter during the downtime.

The L2 broke again about a month ago and it's just sitting while I run through my digital limiters to see what sounds best for each track.

I also disagree with the poster who says the software doesn't sound nearly as good. This sound may be affected by the choice/age of computer or DAW but in my set-up I've done null tests (almost perfect) and ear tests (easy to do as one can hit the bypass on the plug-in and hardware unit simutaneously to hear the differences) and I'm not sure I can really hear the difference.

So when the L2 came out with an unlinked model, I got that upgrade and the hardware is just sitting doing nothing until I decide whether to blow another couple of hundred or sell it as is!

Yep!
I guess the hardware L2 is not the most reliable piece of outboard on the planet!
I no longer have one!

The performance of the software version does depend on the DAW and puter you are using.

[pianokeys]

May I please trouble someone to comment on my two posts (just above)

Thanks

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Let me simplify - someone please chime in and let me know if this makes sense

Bus comp - slow attack to let it breathe and not get too pumpy (acoustic music well recorded - want to maintain stereo image etc) Still some nice compression resulting in softer details being audible and instruments feeling more "together"

then

Limiter - ultra fast attack but only catching transient signals that go through the bus compressor - so never dropping sections only hits

potential result = gently compressed "glued" mix with some extra gain.

I know it isn't this simple - but doesn't this make sense?

It makes sense and is quite simple, insofar as being able to achieve the sound you're after, or hear it in your mind, then work towards it.

In short:
Comp = taming more of the deeper, inner musical dynamics. Compare before/after at matched levels. And all compressors sound different.
Peak limiting = (theoretically more invisibly) taming very brief peak dynamics only, very fast, to set a peak ceiling for a given amount of gain.

Use judiciously. The sound of either (or neither) always should be the primary consideration.

[lerone]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

There is nothing special about either of em!

The sonnox limiter is just another lookahead limiter/snare vampire/dynamics killer, plugin!
(The hardware L2 sounds better than that! I guess there's more DSP available)

The sonnox inflater is just digital tape saturation.
(Again, the algorithms are not complex enough to nail that)

The sonnox supresser, on the other hand, is a really useful de-esser plugin.

I'm not saying you are mentally impaired mate!
But you are talking as if no ME has ever pushed an ADC before.

Cheers

I know, i just prefer not to thats all. I rate the sonnox limiter over the hardware l2 for sure, but its all subjective i guess. And the inflator sounds very different to tape, not even close....but its not meant to be a tape sim

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by lerone

I know, i just prefer not to thats all. I rate the sonnox limiter over the hardware l2 for sure, but its all subjective i guess. And the inflator sounds very different to tape, not even close....but its not meant to be a tape sim

I guess the inflator's meant to make things sound a little more tube like.
Not a fan myself as I find it a little weird sounding, but each to their own!

If you prefer the Sonnox limiter, then that's also your choice!

Maybe I was lucky and had one of the only L2's that actually worked properly as I have heard some stories from fellow ME's that have had loads of trouble with em!

[lerone]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

I guess the inflator's meant to make things sound a little more tube like.
Not a fan myself as I find it a little weird sounding, but each to their own!

If you prefer the Sonnox limiter, then that's also your choice!

Maybe I was lucky and had one of the only L2's that actually worked properly as I have heard some stories from fellow ME's that have had loads of trouble with em!

Yeah I have heard mixed things from different people too. Reminds me of the Lynx auroras thing...some of the quality variations between model to model is pretty shabby. Quality control needs to be a more intense

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Let me simplify - someone please chime in and let me know if this makes sense

Bus comp - slow attack to let it breathe and not get too pumpy (acoustic music well recorded - want to maintain stereo image etc) Still some nice compression resulting in softer details being audible and instruments feeling more "together"

then

Limiter - ultra fast attack but only catching transient signals that go through the bus compressor - so never dropping sections only hits

potential result = gently compressed "glued" mix with some extra gain.

I know it isn't this simple - but doesn't this make sense?

Using a compressor to make space and a lookahead limiter for a couple more Db is pretty standard practice.
It's finding the right compressor for what you're after, that can be difficult.

I suggest you try to get some demo units of some of the comps that the guys have already mentioned, to see which one float's your boat!

If you like the hardware L2 then you should maybe get Ozone 4 and use the intelligent II limiter.
(one of the better plugin lookaheads)
It's cheap as chips but great for the money and may be just what you are after!

Hope this helps

[pianokeys]

T of T - you've been a great help this thread - thank you very much!

(and thanks to all others who posted as well)