Mastering in The Mix?

[Odey]

Hi Mastering GS people. How are you today?

I am fast approaching the end of a long labour of love project. I have been tracking on good equipment and the final mix will be in an SSL mixing room in London. Whilst we will mess around with compressors and FX on individual tracks to get the fat sound that I am looking for, my question relates to the mix bus.

I fully intend to have these tracks mastered by a top london mastering house but I want to make sure I am delivering what they will want. I will obviously ask them what they want but I wanted to get a feel for what other people think aswell.

Should I leave the mix buss alone?

The reason I ask is because I have been floating around the High End forum and they are endlessly debating what to use on the mix buss compressors/eq/tape emulators etc..

In my limited experience I would naturally assume that because I am spending money on experienced mastering, I should leave the Mix buss clean and let the master engineer apply limiting/fx etc..

What does everyone think about this? And what if anything can I do to the mix without compromising the mastering session?

(On a side note, if there are any London based mastering engineers reading this post, then please feel free to PM me about doing the work.. Only top professionals with a good CV please!)

Thanks for your time

Odey

[Darius van H]

Take 2 versions to the mastering - one with nothing on the 2B and one with whatever floats your boat.

[frans]

Not that I KNOW what I am doing but... I put a mild limiter on the main bus while I mix to anticipate what will happen to my peaks, but of course it will be bypassed when I am finished so the file has all the peaks - the mastering engineer has better ears and gear than me.

[Fraktul]

I wouldn't bother compressing the mix buss if you intend to have it mastered by a professional, add compression to individual channels if it needs it but I would leave the mix buss alone unless there is a significant issue, but you should be able to fix this in the mix.

Compression is a form of distortion and cannot be undone, a good masering engineer will thank you for it as they have more to work with.

Read this interview all the way through, particulary the stuff on limiting and compression startign with the question "What are the common mistakes of your customer?"

[It'sJoeAgain]

mix until the cows come home and to your heart's delight, but leave the master buss alone. FX in the mastering?? hopefully is not needed, but if you did it probably means that something is wrong with your mix...Hey why not master in New York instead??

[Odey]

Originally Posted by It'sJoeAgain

mix until the cows come home and to your heart's delight, but leave the master buss alone. FX in the mastering?? hopefully is not needed, but if you did it probably means that something is wrong with your mix...Hey why not master in New York instead??

Because I would have to fly there from london! But thanks anyway. And I don't mean FX.. Just compression and Limiting and EQ.

[kjg]

Originally Posted by Odey

And I don't mean FX.. Just compression and Limiting and EQ.

Hopefully not needed (much) either. The better your mix, the less needed of anything.
Leave the 2 buss alone unless you are sure what you are doing (which you are not - that's why you are asking here). Just nail the mix, without 2buss shortcuts. Nail it.

Good luck!

[Odey]

Originally Posted by kjg

Hopefully not needed (much) either. The better your mix, the less needed of anything.
Leave the 2 buss alone unless you are sure what you are doing (which you are not - that's why you are asking here). Just nail the mix, without 2buss shortcuts. Nail it.

Good luck!

I am not mixing it myself.. I will have an experienced engineer to do that for me but it seems that it is more common nowadays for the mix engineers to mess around with the 2 buss. I would like to use the tried and tested methods,, which is why I am here. And I appreciate feedback directly from mastering engineers as I am sure I will get different opinions from the Mix engineer!

And correct me if I am mistaken but I thought the idea of mastering was to transform the track into something dynamic and exciting to listen to?

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by Odey

Because I would have to fly there from london!

No u don't... though i do understand if u need to be present at the mastering session....that's another thread....

Originally Posted by Odey

I am not mixing it myself.. I will have an experienced engineer to do that for me

Are u going to be there at the mixing session or not??

And correct me if I am mistaken but I thought the idea of mastering was to transform the track into something dynamic and exciting to listen to?

Yes, to some degree. No, it's not supposed to change your mix, especially if it's a good one.... take your pick Dynamics vs. Loudness, maybe something middle of the road... whatever floats your boat..

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by Odey

And correct me if I am mistaken but I thought the idea of mastering was to transform the track into something dynamic and exciting to listen to?

Maybe this is the root of the problem. Mastering is simply here to help your mixes translate out into the real world. Your mixes need to have all of the dynamics and excitement in them before they get to the mastering stage. Then the ME can tweak a little her and a little there to get the most out of each song and create an album from all of the pieces. If you're leaving the excitement for the mastering stage you've already missed out on your best opportunity to make a great sounding mix.


GR

[kjg]

Originally Posted by Odey

I am not mixing it myself.. I will have an experienced engineer to do that for me

Then let him do what he does. Chances are that he'll use a little compression which is fine as long as he knows what he is doing (and why he is doing it, and how to do it ). Just print two versions like Darius van H suggested.

And correct me if I am mistaken but I thought the idea of mastering was to transform the track into something dynamic and exciting to listen to?

You are mistaken.
Make the music interesting, exciting, dynamic, good sounding, polished, bad-ass, or whatever you want it to be in the writing, tracking and mixing phases. If it is not exciting when you go in to mastering, it is not ready to be mastered (bad mix, bad arrangement, bad performance etc), and might never be (bad song..).
The mastering is there to make a master ready for duplication out of a bunch of mixes , which includes checking for errors (made due to inexperience, bad monitoring, fatigue, technical issues, whatever) on a reference grade monitoring system by an objective person with a fresh pair of ears .
So, if all goes well: slight correction, balancing levels between tracks, icing on the cake type processing. Ideally: nothing but creating a physical master to the right techincal specifications.

[Odey]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

Maybe this is the root of the problem. Mastering is simply here to help your mixes translate out into the real world. Your mixes need to have all of the dynamics and excitement in them before they get to the mastering stage. Then the ME can tweak a little her and a little there to get the most out of each song and create an album from all of the pieces. If you're leaving the excitement for the mastering stage you've already missed out on your best opportunity to make a great sounding mix.


GR

If that is the case.. then I will get the mix engineer to apply creative compression to the mix bus! And of course we will try for a dynamic mix of the tracks. I was still under the impression that mastering helps to "Glue" the track together. Is that not the case?

Thanks for the advice so far. This is my first project.. so whilst I am aware of the processes.. I have not actually had anything mastered yet.

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by Odey

If that is the case.. then I will get the mix engineer to apply creative compression to the mix bus! And of course we will try for a dynamic mix of the tracks. I was still under the impression that mastering helps to "Glue" the track together. Is that not the case?

no *creative* compression will be needed either (at the master buss) if he knows what he is doing to each individual track.....Yes, mastering helps glue the mix together just make sure to leave room for that...

[Odey]

Originally Posted by kjg

Then let him do what he does. Chances are that he'll use a little compression which is fine as long as he knows what he is doing (and why he is doing it, and how to do it ). Just print two versions like Darius van H suggested.

You are mistaken.
Make the music interesting, exciting, dynamic, good sounding, polished, bad-ass, or whatever you want it to be in the writing, tracking and mixing phases. If it is not exciting when you go in to mastering, it is not ready to be mastered (bad mix, bad arrangement, bad performance etc), and might never be (bad song..).
The mastering is there to make a master ready for duplication out of a bunch of mixes , which includes checking for errors (made due to inexperience, bad monitoring, fatigue, technical issues, whatever) on a reference grade monitoring system by an objective person with a fresh pair of ears .
So, if all goes well: slight correction, balancing levels between tracks, icing on the cake type processing. Ideally: nothing but creating a physical master to the right techincal specifications.

There is no need to patronize. I am fully aware that the track needs to be good in the first place.

[kjg]

Originally Posted by Odey

There is no need to patronize. I am fully aware that the track needs to be good in the first place.

I am not patronizing. I'm sorry if you perceive it that way.

Good luck with it.

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by Odey

There is no need to patronize. I am fully aware that the track needs to be good in the first place.

No one is trying to patronize you here. but your questions and comments unequivocally give away the level of your understanding on the matter.

[Odey]

Originally Posted by kjg

I am not patronizing. I'm sorry if you perceive it that way.

Good luck with it.

No offence taken. It is quite obvious that the mix needs to sound good before it is mastered. What I am trying to ascertain is what to get the mix engineer to do ie "Leave room" for the mastering process.This is the only information I am after. Believe it or not the mix engineers will want to effect the 2 track more than I am sure mastering engineers want them to. As the producer of these tracks it is my job to maintain quality throughout all the processes.

Thanks again for the advice so far

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by Odey

No offence taken. It is quite obvious that the mix needs to sound good before it is mastered. What I am trying to ascertain is what to get the mix engineer to do ie "Leave room" for the mastering process.This is the only information I am after. Believe it or not the mix engineers will want to effect the 2 track more than I am sure mastering engineers want them to. As the producer of these tracks it is my job to maintain quality throughout all the processes.

Thanks again for the advice so far

Just one more thing...if the guy (mixer) is working at 24 bit or higher res. HD system, there is no need to get anywhere near -0, -3, -6 -12 even -20 dBFS peak levels... the more headroom the better, right??

[Odey]

Originally Posted by It'sJoeAgain

Just one more thing...if the guy (mixer) is working or 24 bit or higher res. HD system, there is no need to get anywhere near -0, -3, -6 -12 even -20 dBFS peak levels... the more headroom the better, right??

I'll take your word for it! I've tracked at 24bit.. I will double check with the mastering house what they want before we finish the mixes. I just want to be prepared for anything the mixer wants to do. If he starts loading fx onto the mix buss.. I can so "No" lets leave that for the mastering house.

And are you saying basically that it should peak quite a bit below 0? And would that leave the room needed for the mastering process to happen successfully?

[kjg]

Originally Posted by Odey

No offence taken. It is quite obvious that the mix needs to sound good before it is mastered. What I am trying to ascertain is what to get the mix engineer to do ie "Leave room" for the mastering process.This is the only information I am after. Believe it or not the mix engineers will want to effect the 2 track more than I am sure mastering engineers want them to. As the producer of these tracks it is my job to maintain quality throughout all the processes.

Thanks again for the advice so far

The mix needs to sound good, yes. Ideally it is nailed, but that might not be possible due to limited time/money/experience. Therefore: go safe!

In any case: don't put anything on the two bus just to make it louder. The ME can do that better, and in context of the album
If the mixer knows what he's doing, let him do what he does. If you don't like how it sounds, tell him. Of course.
Take your responsibility as a (somewhat inexperienced) producer by getting a safety copy of the mix without any processing. So if the 2buss processing done by the mixer doesn't sound THAT great in the mastering room, the ME has a clean copy of the mix to work with AND an idea of the mixing engineer's (and producer's) intention.

Export as 24 or 32 bit. Peak levels between -20 and -3 are fine.

[Bob Olhsson]

Whoa, there's nothing "wrong" with compressing the mix bus.

While for me I can get a better product without compressing the mix bus, I'm also not going to have my mix compressed in mastering unless it really seems to help.

The thing to probably leave off is the limiting that sets the final volume level. The reason for leaving it off is because there is no way to know where it should be set until you have the final sequence and levels around it in place. It's simply a matter of not guessing.

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by Odey

And are you saying basically that it should peak quite a bit below 0? And would that leave the room needed for the mastering process to happen successfully?

Yep...and again if this mixer guy does a good job tweaking each track individually, your mix will sound great and if it does, you're set, make sure to be happy with the mix job....the mastering will put "the icing on the cake"....

[Odey]

Originally Posted by kjg

The mix needs to sound good, yes. Ideally it is nailed, but that might not be possible due to limited time/money/experience. Therefore: go safe!

In any case: don't put anything on the two bus just to make it louder. The ME can do that better, and in context of the album
If the mixer knows what he's doing, let him do what he does. If you don't like how it sounds, tell him. Of course.
Take your responsibility as a (somewhat inexperienced) producer by getting a safety copy of the mix without any processing. So if the 2buss processing done by the mixer doesn't sound THAT great in the mastering room, the ME has a clean copy of the mix to work with AND an idea of the mixing engineer's (and producer's) intention.

Export as 24 or 32 bit. Peak levels between -20 and -3 are fine.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Taking a clean version of the track is definitely good advice. And to be honest asking technical questions at least a month before the mix and master is happening shows initiative as a producer in my opinion. I am sure there are many "experienced producers" that would not get involved in these decisions. Again can I point out that it is unnecessary to attack my experience.

Thanks

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Whoa, there's nothing "wrong" with compressing the mix bus.

While for me I can get a better product without compressing the mix bus, I'm also not going to have my mix compressed in mastering unless it really seems to help.

The thing to probably leave off is the limiting that sets the final volume level. The reason for leaving it off is because there is no way to know where it should be set until you have the final sequence and levels around it in place. It's simply a matter of not guessing.

I mean...hey...I also wear a seat belt when I drive my car, but I am pretty sure I can drive without it. It's a matter of who is mixing. I know engineers that are so good, they have no need for using a compressor at the master buss. If you need one, it means that you are having problems controlling the dynamics on few track/channels. hell i know!!.. I wished I had a compressor on every channel when i am doing live sound, but I can't afford it so I use it also on the main outs ....

Edit; and i don't mean to be a pain in your behind, I have huge respect for you but since when "limiting" is not considered compression??

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by Odey

I was still under the impression that mastering helps to "Glue" the track together. Is that not the case?

It CAN be, and we certainly have the tools to do that if needed, but the best case scenario is for the songs to be just right coming out of the mixing stage. You should be able to hand the mixes to the ME and say "you don't need to do anything" (other than sequence and final level, etc). That's a perfect place for the ME to start. Then he will be able to make very small adjustments that add up to a great sounding album that flows from top to bottom.

I think you're asking the right questions. Just make sure you're very happy with the mixes and the rest will be a breeze.


GR

[NorseHorse]

If you are "mastering" while mixing then you aren't mastering.

Putting FX, EQ, Compressors, Limiters, Transmogrifiers, nice convertors, meters, and monitors on your master bus while mixing doesn't equal mastering. It's just mixing. I regularly put FX on my master bus while mixing.

You need to give it to someone else when you're done mixing. THAT's mastering.

Cheers.

[kjg]

Originally Posted by Odey

Everyone has to start somewhere. Taking a clean version of the track is definitely good advice. And to be honest asking technical questions at least a month before the mix and master is happening shows initiative as a producer in my opinion. I am sure there are many "experienced producers" that would not get involved in these decisions. Again can I point out that it is unnecessary to attack my experience.

Thanks

I am not attacking you. You state yourself that you have little experience. So you get advice for that situation, for what is. Not good, not bad, just what is.
You are taking responsibility by getting informed and the next responsible step is indeed to just bounce two versions. No one was saying you are not responsible.
Anyone but the MOST experience producers would get this advice but then they wouldn't be asking, because they would already be bouncing a safety copy anyway.

No-one is attacking or patronizing you.

[Bob Olhsson]

Limiting is high ratio compression, 10 to 1 or more. Low ratio compression, 1.5 to 1 or 4 to 1 is commonly used on mix busses.

[Odey]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

It CAN be, and we certainly have the tools to do that if needed, but the best case scenario is for the songs to be just right coming out of the mixing stage. You should be able to hand the mixes to the ME and say "you don't need to do anything" (other than sequence and final level, etc). That's a perfect place for the ME to start. Then he will be able to make very small adjustments that add up to a great sounding album that flows from top to bottom.

I think you're asking the right questions. Just make sure you're very happy with the mixes and the rest will be a breeze.


GR

This is helpful.. thanks.. People telling me that a mix is a mix and a master is a master is not helpful in any way shape or form. Save your energy!

Basically get it cracked in the mix and get the ME to set level and top and tail etc.. (Ideally)

Is it common for the ME to creatively effect the track?

[It'sJoeAgain]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Limiting is high ratio compression, 10 to 1 or more. Low ratio compression, 1.5 to 1 or 4 to 1 is commonly used on mix busses.

I agree, it's a different beast but still a compressor IMO...so, what exactly a low ratio setting on a compressor is supposed to accomplish in the master buss?? is this a matter of adding some of that expensive phase distortion??