Reverb amount in final mix ?

[jlsgear]

Hi, I struggle with reverb in my mixes ... ie. too little or too much ... Soooo I am Just wondering about ME's do with reverb levels in final mixes ...

A few questions for you:

1) Can ME's correct mixes with TOO MUCH verb ? (doubtful)

2) Do ME's often add high-end verb to submitted mixes ? ie. is it better to let the ME add verb if you don't have the big buck reverbs (aka Bricasti) ??

3) Do ME's make reverb suggestions based on a sample (pre-final mix) ?

Thanking you all,
jls.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by jlsgear

Hi, I struggle with reverb in my mixes ... ie. too little or too much ... Soooo I am Just wondering about ME's do with reverb levels in final mixes ...

A few questions for you:

1) Can ME's correct mixes with TOO MUCH verb ? (doubtful)

2) Do ME's often add high-end verb to submitted mixes ? ie. is it better to let the ME add verb if you don't have the big buck reverbs (aka Bricasti) ??

3) Do ME's make reverb suggestions based on a sample (pre-final mix) ?

Thanking you all,
jls.

My Answers:

1---very doubtful. Subtle changes in EQ can bring out the definition and make it seem like there's less verb, but only subtly. In most cases where there is obviously too much verb you have to remix.

2--- On the high end: Possibly, if it's necessary or useful. But don't count on it, get it as right as possible in the mix. On the verb: It's much better for the mix engineer to get it right and use the right kind of verb and the best verb. Rarely, (and I mean very rarely) a mastering engineer can add verb to a finished mix with no compromise. It requires great skill, and a mix which is conducive to this. The main obstacle is you cannot separate the elements that are going to get verb, so it can get very muddy fast. That's not to say I haven't done it... and the results have been from good to excellent, but it takes great skill and restraint and the right kind of mix to even consider adding overall verb.

3--- Many mastering engineers will be happy to comment on your mix in the making. After all, the better your mix, the better we look!

I don't personally know anyone using Bricasti, though it's certainly undergone good marketing, but is it a hotter ticket than the better-known competition?

[Waltz Mastering]

As a side note.. sometimes the compression used in mastering tends to bring up the details which sometimes includes reverb in the master. So as always less is more unless more sounds better.

[aprilapril956]

compression and limiting bring reverb levels up. Reverb is like spices.
At final stages I usually take reverb levels down intentionally, this is my experience

[Peakly]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

As a side note.. sometimes the compression used in mastering tends to bring up the details which sometimes includes reverb in the master. So as always less is more unless more sounds better.

I agree with that 100%. Most of the time the reverb gets accentuated by compression and limiting. And since less is more, maybe you can get by with the reverb you have. Just don't lay it in there too heavy.

Something I learned from a great mixer a while ago - try to get your mix sounding good without any reverb. Then when you do add it, maybe you won't need so much.

That being said, I did ask a mastering engineer to add a little of his high-end reverb to my mixes on one of my projects. After a little communication, he put a little across the whole mix, and it sounded great.

Mychal

[jlsgear]

Thanks Bob !

Quick one Bob , if you were to add a little verb, what verb units do you have at your disposal in your mastering studio ?

Thanks again,
Jls.

Originally Posted by bob katz

My Answers:

1---very doubtful. Subtle changes in EQ can bring out the definition and make it seem like there's less verb, but only subtly. In most cases where there is obviously too much verb you have to remix.

2--- On the high end: Possibly, if it's necessary or useful. But don't count on it, get it as right as possible in the mix. On the verb: It's much better for the mix engineer to get it right and use the right kind of verb and the best verb. Rarely, (and I mean very rarely) a mastering engineer can add verb to a finished mix with no compromise. It requires great skill, and a mix which is conducive to this. The main obstacle is you cannot separate the elements that are going to get verb, so it can get very muddy fast. That's not to say I haven't done it... and the results have been from good to excellent, but it takes great skill and restraint and the right kind of mix to even consider adding overall verb.

3--- Many mastering engineers will be happy to comment on your mix in the making. After all, the better your mix, the better we look!

I don't personally know anyone using Bricasti, though it's certainly undergone good marketing, but is it a hotter ticket than the better-known competition?

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by jlsgear

Thanks Bob !

Quick one Bob , if you were to add a little verb, what verb units do you have at your disposal in your mastering studio ?

Thanks again,
Jls.

My favorite is the TC VSS4, which is currently only available in the Reverb 4000 and the System 6000. It's very dimensional and very natural, a meaningful improvement over the VSS3. I have worked with TC to get this reverb to its full potential and recently got an important addition added to the VSS4 in the System 6000. I have a number of starting presets for different kinds of music developed over the years as well.

After that I have the Waves IR-1 and do intend to get the Altiverb but that doesn't count because I don't have it, yet! Convolution reverbs have improved tremendously in the past few years, the samples are now excellent. The weak link in Convolution reverbs is the ability to emulate early reflections, which is still the strong suit of the TC.

BK

[sammyp]

if you're nervous about your verb, i suggest you put some mastering comp and limiting on your stereo buss and have a listen from time to time to see what a mastering engineer will hear when they begin to work your tune....as someone already mentioned, verb comes up with compression....i have a dead mixing room and i can mix too much verb if i'm not careful....the psuedo mastering really sheds light!

a mastering eng could easily add a bit of verb to your mix....much harder to mask too much.....

[Adam Dempsey]

I can't believe the DPS V-77 "poor man's EMT" didn't rate a mention there, Bob.

[Casey]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I don't personally know anyone using Bricasti, though it's certainly undergone good marketing, but is it a hotter ticket than the better-known competition?

Yes, I know we are new; fair comment...

Originally Posted by bob katz

My favorite is the TC VSS4. I have worked with TC to get this reverb to its full potential and recently got an important addition added to the VSS4 in the System 6000.

If you would, PM me; I would enjoy hearing about an addition that you found important. Of course, I would enjoy giving you something else to consider as well.



-Casey

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

I can't believe the DPS V-77 "poor man's EMT" didn't rate a mention there, Bob.

Not anymore, Adam. It's out of date and just doesn't cut the mustard... Now it's a "very poor man's" EMT.

BK

[jlsgear]

Go Casey Go ... Go Casey Go ... (-;

But seriously, I desperately need a high end verb ... That's likely my root verb problem - is that I only have the Kurz Rumour ... nice, but for my acoustic based Roots music something like the Bricasti would go a long way 'round here ...

If only that Canadian dollar would just get up there again !!

Thanks you all for your input,

jls.

Originally Posted by Casey

Yes, I know we are new; fair comment...



If you would, PM me; I would enjoy hearing about an addition that you found important. Of course, I would enjoy giving you something else to consider as well.



-Casey

[angel72bg]

Originally Posted by bob katz

My favorite is the TC VSS4, which is currently only available in the Reverb 4000 and the System 6000. It's very dimensional and very natural, a meaningful improvement over the VSS3. I have worked with TC to get this reverb to its full potential and recently got an important addition added to the VSS4 in the System 6000. I have a number of starting presets for different kinds of music developed over the years as well.

After that I have the Waves IR-1 and do intend to get the Altiverb but that doesn't count because I don't have it, yet! Convolution reverbs have improved tremendously in the past few years, the samples are now excellent. The weak link in Convolution reverbs is the ability to emulate early reflections, which is still the strong suit of the TC.

BK

Hi.Mr Katz
You are great engineer.I am your big fan.
Please, is it possible to get from You your presets from VSS4.
My name ia Angel Eftimov and I am owner of TC Rev4000.
I will be very happy to have got presets from the fame Bob Katz.
Thank You
Best Regards

[narcoman]

hey Bob,

Just to say - as a system 6000 and bricasti user.... the M7 JUST pips Vss4 .... JUST.

[donsolo]

I had a Major client recently (Interscope hip hop track) and it was actually too dry!

I applied just a touch of reverb to it and the client was thrilled. It helped get rid of the karaoke sound the mix was having. It was VERY subtle and I kept it out of the real high end so it wasn't too aparent and out of the low end so it wasn't muddying things up.

Getting reverb out is a much harder deal.

I would think reverb would be more common when you're mastering stems, something I'm not typically doing right now.

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Not anymore, Adam. It's out of date and just doesn't cut the mustard... Now it's a "very poor man's" EMT.

Glad I haven't used one (or needed to) for 3 years then.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by jlsgear

Hi, I struggle with reverb in my mixes ... ie. too little or too much ... Soooo I am Just wondering about ME's do with reverb levels in final mixes ...

A few questions for you:

1) Can ME's correct mixes with TOO MUCH verb ? (doubtful)

2) Do ME's often add high-end verb to submitted mixes ? ie. is it better to let the ME add verb if you don't have the big buck reverbs (aka Bricasti) ??

3) Do ME's make reverb suggestions based on a sample (pre-final mix) ?

Thanking you all,
jls.

1) VERY doubtful. Some delicate low level expansion below, say, -40 or -50 dBFS can help if it doesn't screw up the sound. I would recommend you try the RND (RN digital) D2 or D4 for this purpose. The low level section can be tweaked. But don't expect a gigantic improvement. Even a subjective 1 dB lowering of the reverb can be welcome if it only needs a little. But you can easily end up taking away the baby with the bathwater. Not a good thing.

2) Rarely. I'm kind of a specialist in that thing, and I've been asked or suggested adding reverb on perhaps 10 out of the hundreds of projects I've done in the past six months, very successfully. But it's an art and if done improperly can really screw up a mix. On an individual basis you should ask. There are many reasons why you should do it yourself on the mix side (because you have control over the individual elements) and very few reasons to justify doing if on the mastering side (the fact that you don't have a super reverb is unfortunately not a great justification). And IF the mix suits the addition of delicate reverb in mastering in all areas, then it's possible to do. But only if the specialist mastering engineer has lots of experience and ability in the area or your master could end up muddy, indistinct, with lowered vocal levels, poor balance, and with poor depth.

3) A good mastering engineer will be happy to listen to your mix in the making and make comments on the sound, including the reverb. That's because the better the mix you send, the better we look and the less work we have to do in mastering. If you are specifically concerned about the reverb, it helps to bring that topic up when you send the sample for evaluation.

Hope this helps!

[streetbeats]

Very early for you Bob?
An application of some subtle stereo image enhancement in your replies? :D

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by streetbeats

Very early for you Bob?
An application of some subtle stereo image enhancement in your replies? :D

I was insomniac this morning, got up at 4, had nothing better to do and reverberated throughout the forums!

[streetbeats]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I was insomniac this morning, got up at 4, had nothing better to do and reverberated throughout the forums!

[Chris Kress]

Originally Posted by jlsgear

Hi, I struggle with reverb in my mixes ... ie. too little or too much ... Soooo I am Just wondering about ME's do with reverb levels in final mixes ...

The better your room, the easier it is to place the verbs and other ambience.. Either way, I would recommend doing a quick referenece near the end of your mix time with a multi-band compressor and limiter in which you crush everything up to level. See what breaks and fix it. Don't leave the multi-band compressor on too long while you do revisions (3-5 minutes). Then take it off and continue adjusting. -IF- you have everything sitting nice with the multiband, then send it as a reference to your mastering engineer.

Also, delivering a louder mix seems to minimize the variables at mastering ( ex. rms -12 on my samplitude and wavelab meters). Back out of your masterbus.... do not send it if you hear any compression effects... This is all way easier to say than to do and still have -12 db rms. The more ambience and verbs, the trickier it is...