Considering LavryBlack DA-10

[foamboy]

Hello, I am considering the LavryBlack DA-10 and I was wondering if I should get a better sound card other than my current M-Audio Audiophile. I mean isn't SPDIF all the same quality regardless of card? Don't shoot me for asking, I am just wondering. If the consensus is to dump the M-Audio,please make a suggestion that would be a good match for the Lavry.


Thanks,

foamboy

[Table Of Tone]

Try em together first and see how it sounds!

[bluecouchstudio]

Why not get the newer DA-11 and run your audio straight out of it via USB?

On the M-Audio, I'm not 100% sure since I don't know the specs that well, but I would imagine the clock would make a difference. Ideally the simpler path the better, especially if it's for monitoring.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by bluecouchstudio

Why not get the newer DA-11 and run your audio straight out of it via USB?

On the M-Audio, I'm not 100% sure since I don't know the specs that well, but I would imagine the clock would make a difference. Ideally the simpler path the better, especially if it's for monitoring.

But USB is not necessarily a simpler or better path.... There's a lot of computer overhead going on in the background. I'd like to hear from some USB experts as to whether it's even a dependable clocked interface. I doubt it. My money's on SPDIF or AES/EBU as less jittery than USB or Firewire. That's why TC Electronics invented their Firewire chip... because of all the troubles in the non-synchronous interfaces.

[bluecouchstudio]

Bob,

I'm no expert in USB, but I'd be surprised if there was a larger difference between USB and PCIe for clocking. Plus, if he uses the Audiophile, he will be dependent on it's clock. If he uses USB, then the only clock in the path is the Lavry (besides in the Mac or PC). I guess that's what I meant by simpler. Where is Dan Lavry when you need him?

[rumleymusic]

I'd like to hear from some USB experts as to whether it's even a dependable clocked interface. I doubt it. My money's on SPDIF or AES/EBU as less jittery than USB or Firewire.

Dependable? That all depends. CPU overhead is not the problem, it is whether the buffer is reliable. And that depends on the quality of the chipset. Technically, there should be no jitter that would affect audio in USB or firewire, and if there is, it is usually catastrophic and results in major performance problems.

Where is Dan Lavry when you need him?

Trying to promote his 60kHz audio standard idea.

[space2012]

Originally Posted by foamboy

Hello, I am considering the LavryBlack DA-10 and I was wondering if I should get a better sound card other than my current M-Audio Audiophile. I mean isn't SPDIF all the same quality regardless of card? Don't shoot me for asking, I am just wondering. If the consensus is to dump the M-Audio,please make a suggestion that would be a good match for the Lavry.


Thanks,

foamboy

Universal Audio 2192 + Acoustic zen silver byte s/pdif cable.

do A/B listening tests.

RME and Lynx pci/pcie soundcards have better ASIO drivers.

[chris_m]

Originally Posted by bob katz

But USB is not necessarily a simpler or better path.... There's a lot of computer overhead going on in the background. I'd like to hear from some USB experts as to whether it's even a dependable clocked interface. I doubt it. My money's on SPDIF or AES/EBU as less jittery than USB or Firewire. That's why TC Electronics invented their Firewire chip... because of all the troubles in the non-synchronous interfaces.

Hi Bob, you're basically right. Some USB implementations suffer from higher jitter, for example in the DAC1. According to Benchmark this is due to using their own firmware that allows bitperfect output without special drivers, but results in higher jitter. However the DAC1 USB has reclocking under the hood, so it doesnt matter. I've used the DAC1 USB for some months and never experienced a dropout or difference in sound compared to AES via a Lynx AES16. I also couldnt measure (rmaa) a differnence in noise/distortion levels while being connected/grounded to my pc via USB.

The biggest reason against FW or USB would be latency, especially with high cpu load.

That Lavry DA11 and the Benchmark USB DAC were targeted more at the hifi crowd anyway. I wouldnt use USB for anything else than casual listening.

[okydoky]

hi,

with firewire, the issue is whether or not it is isochonous. if its not, i think the computer's clock is involved, which is apparently not good, generally.

weiss has a firewire interface that works, i believe. i've used the adc2 both aes and firewire, and i didn't think there was supposed to be any difference in the latencies [but i didn't really check for that].

for what its worth, i actually do have a usb converter device that works. its a novation x-station. it only goes to 48kHz. sounds pretty decent, for what it is. but i thought usb was not the preferred approach for converters, for some reason. probably best to stick with aes.



right

[monomer]

Originally Posted by bob katz

There's a lot of computer overhead going on in the background. I'd like to hear from some USB experts as to whether it's even a dependable clocked interface. I doubt it. My money's on SPDIF or AES/EBU as less jittery than USB or Firewire. That's why TC Electronics invented their Firewire chip... because of all the troubles in the non-synchronous interfaces.

I'd say that with usb or FW there is no clocking involved.
At least, not in the way as in AES/EBU where the clock in embeded in the signal and the signal is thus ment to drive the converters.


If i were to design a usb or fw interface i would just make a buffer in the interface. The computer would only worry about keeping the buffer filled. This would eliminate any jitter from the transmission to the interface.
Then the interface itself would just have its own clock and would output from the buffer at its own leisure.
It would also signal back to the computer when the buffer it , say, half full/half empty so the computer can dump some more data into it.
The buffer would add some to latency altough i guess you can keep it pretty small.

I think that most usb or fw interfaces work this way.
It removes the necesity for the computer to output at a steady rate (and belive me, computers have pretty shitty internal clocking most of the time).
If those internal clocks would have been anywhere near stable then you could just connect a small amp to your serial port and have your computer output an AES/EBU signal for a super duper el cheapo digital interface.

[Bob Olhsson]

I understand USB 3 solves all of the known problems. It just isn't in mass production yet.

The next generation of computers will probably only support USB 3 and a new, faster generation of Ethernet.

[monomer]

Originally Posted by bob katz

But USB is not necessarily a simpler or better path.... There's a lot of computer overhead going on in the background. I'd like to hear from some USB experts as to whether it's even a dependable clocked interface.

The main problem with usb or fw would not be the usb interface/driver IC itself.
The problem would be the operating system that controls how often data is allowed to be sent out to the controller IC.
This can vary from moment to moment depending (indeed) on things like background tasks and (for instance) data transfers to the video card.
My guess is that any problems with high latencies/dropouts/etc/etc would come from this fact.

[monomer]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I understand USB 3 solves all of the known problems. It just isn't in mass production yet.

The next generation of computers will probably only support USB 3 and a new, faster generation of Ethernet.

Lol, do we even NEED 10Gbps ??.,

[wado1942]

You know, it shouldn't matter WHAT kind of pipes you use to get the signal to/from the DACs/ADCs as long as the converters themselves are set as the master clock source. So you can easily use S/PDIF or USB equally well as long as the actual converters themselves are the master clock. That said, I have an AP192 and it's NOT a very good card. I'm using it less and less all the time. They call it a +4 device but at that level, it only has 4dB headroom. So I had to actually set it at +4 to feed it a -10 source. It sounds way better than my Echo did at 44.1KHz/48KHz but the noise and distortion increase as the sample rate increases which the opposite of what should happen. This is because the M-Audio cards do not use a fixed crystal clock but rather a variable clock. The faster the clock, the more problematic the jitter is.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by monomer

I'd say that with usb or FW there is no clocking involved.
At least, not in the way as in AES/EBU where the clock in embeded in the signal and the signal is thus ment to drive the converters.

Yes, there is no more sample clock in USB that than there is on a CD!

There is always buffering.


DC

[JayT]

Hi,

I've got the Lavry DA-10 in combination with an EMU soundcard.
It works fine.

DA10 has an so called "Crystal-Mode", where it uses mainly its own (very low jitter) clock and synchronizes it (slowly with a data buffer..., not like a PLL) with the incoming signal.
So, if your soundcard has an relativly useable steady clock, it will reduce jitter and improve the sound.

(I hope, i've descriped it right.)

regards. JayT.

[Ashermusic]

I have used my DA-10 with several different audio interfaces and its sound is always stellar.

[nitsuj]

Originally Posted by JayT

Hi,

I've got the Lavry DA-10 in combination with an EMU soundcard.
It works fine.

DA10 has an so called "Crystal-Mode", where it uses mainly its own (very low jitter) clock and synchronizes it (slowly with a data buffer..., not like a PLL) with the incoming signal.
So, if your soundcard has an relativly useable steady clock, it will reduce jitter and improve the sound.

(I hope, i've descriped it right.)

regards. JayT.

Hi JayT,

I'm new to the world of converters here. Have just acquired a Lavry Black DA10 & AD10 and I'm hooking it up via SPDIF to my Motu Ultralite interface.

From my MOTU control panel setup, should I keep my Clock Source as 'Internal' or should I use 'SPDIF'?

Thanks.

[aleatoric]

try both and see what sounds better. i would think the clock on the lavry is better than the motu, so checking spdif should sound better but the proof is in the pudding, toggle the clock back and forth from spdif to internal and see what sounds best to you.

[Nordenstam]

Originally Posted by nitsuj

I'm new to the world of converters here. Have just acquired a Lavry Black DA10 & AD10 and I'm hooking it up via SPDIF to my Motu Ultralite interface.

From my MOTU control panel setup, should I keep my Clock Source as 'Internal' or should I use 'SPDIF'?

Normally, the AD is the master. Set the motu to slave to the AD10. If the motu is not slaving, you have to use wordclock to slave the AD to the motu clock.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by nitsuj

Hi JayT,

I'm new to the world of converters here. Have just acquired a Lavry Black DA10 & AD10 and I'm hooking it up via SPDIF to my Motu Ultralite interface.

From my MOTU control panel setup, should I keep my Clock Source as 'Internal' or should I use 'SPDIF'?

Thanks.

I've never tried the lavry blacks.

Any good?

Can you hear the difference over just the motu on it's own?

I run a lavry gold AD and that is my master clock.
Really solid for sure!

[ONDRAY]

How do the Lavry black's compare to the blue's in sound? Obviously feature wise there different. But if you were comparing A/D, D/A's with HEdd, Benchmark... would you just include one or the other (black 0r Blue) for the Lavry Representative?

[williandiesel]

Some guys told me the black DA and AD are better then the blue ones and more close to the Gold series.

For the poster of this topic i think it all depends of what you already have, i see no point of getting a Lavry DA if you dont have good acoustics or a good monitoring system.

If you already have this, then you can look further, but there are a lot of options wich give you a lot for your cash.

Many of those DAs target to audiophile guys are a lot of bang for you buck and put a chame on many high priced units!
And on the AD side you can get an BLA Sparrow that will make you save a lot for acoustics and a nice monitoring system that will impart at least 3x more on your work than the converters !

[Table Of Tone]

I just don't like digital!
Never have!
I work with it because I have to.

When I first heard the Lavry AD122, that was the first time that I thought, "Hello" now we're getting somewhere!
This actually reminds me of what tape does!

There may be hope yet!

[mosrite]

The Lavry DA10 has been great to me. When I was considering a new DA I shot it out extensively against a Benchmark DAC1 and a highly regarded (and unusual) audiophile DAC. What DAC are you using and why?

It won my vote.

Build is solid but not pretty. It inspires confidence that the thing is solidly engineered though and, as it doubles as my on location recording DAC + headphone amp, this is a positive attribute.

Very clear, detailed sound. Endorsed

[macc]

The USB feature on the DA-11 is very interesting for me and would save me a bit of bother.

I understand the technical reservations about using USB for this task but then also have faith that if anyone can sort it out, it's Lavry. I don't think (from reading his posts) he'd jeapordise quality for any reason whatsoever, but perhaps in this case he was considering the convenience factor a little more.

So, has anyone done any *actual* tests of USB vs SPDIF/AES with the DA-11?

My jury's out, I need some evidence

[Table Of Tone]

I'd like to know if the USB feature works on a mac?

It's sometimes good to listen back to stuff through different D to A's

[arf]

Originally Posted by macc

The USB feature on the DA-11 is very interesting for me and would save me a bit of bother.

I understand the technical reservations about using USB for this task but then also have faith that if anyone can sort it out, it's Lavry. I don't think (from reading his posts) he'd jeapordise quality for any reason whatsoever, but perhaps in this case he was considering the convenience factor a little more.

So, has anyone done any *actual* tests of USB vs SPDIF/AES with the DA-11?

My jury's out, I need some evidence

Haven't done a rigorous test, but my DA11 plays quite happily via usb off my Toshiba laptop running xp. (Max SR for Windows XP via usb is 96k)

[macc]

Nice one

Originally Posted by arf

Haven't done a rigorous test

You know what my next question is going to be....

[arf]

It seems to perform equally well with AES, S/PDIF and USB. No red flags or uneasy feelings.