Subwoofers..

[TanTan]

Hi,

I've recently bought a pair of Wilson CUB's (I've started a thread about it..) and got an Hypex UcD180 to go with them, this is the most detailed system i have ever heard but I'm missing some very low range from about 60Hz down.

I'm looking for the best sub to go with them. there are two problems:
1 - my room is very small: 3m(w)x4m(L)x2.4m(H)
2- the only place i have for a subwoofer is under the mixing desk

Do you think a single subwoofer can cause problems in this setup ?

After spending some time reading about subwoofers i still don't know what to get, some brands don't have distributions in Israel and I'll have to import myself which will be very expensive.

I need a small sub (10"-12"), i can find a used REL Storm III here for a good price, i can also go for a new Velodyne or Genelec because they have distributions here, or import a JL Audio F112 myself which is going to cost about 50% more than it's retail price in the US.

Did you ever do some shootouts between subwoofers on your setups and have any conclusions ?

I'm looking for the fastest sub i can find, i don't care about impressive my clients, just to be able to detect the exact note \ frequency of the lowest octave with minimum decay time.

Thanks !

[Waltz Mastering]

Recommend a sub please

I would suggest going with 2 subs (left and right)

[TanTan]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

I would suggest going with 2 subs (left and right)

Thanks, my room will not handle 2 subs because it's too small:
3m(w)x4m(L)x2.4m(H)

I'm looking only for one..

[pmx]

why would your room not be able to handle?

[TanTan]

Originally Posted by pmx

why would your room not be able to handle?

It's too small..

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by TanTan

I need a small sub (10"-12"), i can find a used REL Storm III here for a good price, i can also go for a new Velodyne or Genelec because they have distributions here, or import a JL Audio F112 myself which is going to cost about 50% more than it's retail price in the US.

Did you ever do some shootouts between subwoofers on your setups and have any conclusions ?

I'm looking for the fastest sub i can find, i don't care about impressive my clients, just to be able to detect the exact note \ frequency of the lowest octave with minimum decay time.

For "fast," tight and musical, yet still with authority, rather than flabby Jurassic Park dinosaur footsteps, that REL Storm III won't disappoint.

[Bob Olhsson]

The idea that a room can be too small is an old audiophool myth from the 1950s that gets repeated a lot. Small rooms are harder to deal with but throwing out low-end to make it more subjectively pleasing is not exactly something you want to do about monitoring.

[TanTan]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

For "fast," tight and musical, yet still with authority, rather than flabby Jurassic Park dinosaur footsteps, that REL Storm III won't disappoint.

Thanks ! I'll see if i can take one and try it in my room, did you ever compare it with the JL Audio F112 ?

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

The idea that a room can be too small is an old audiophool myth from the 1950s that gets repeated a lot. Small rooms are harder to deal with but throwing out low-end to make it more subjectively pleasing is not exactly something you want to do about monitoring.

I had a pair of Genelec 1031a's before I've got the Wilson, the low end was SO flabby that it really made a mess in my room.. now the Wilsons don't have as much low end as the Gene's but still giving me much better reference of what's going on there because their low end is much more tight and precise.

[cooker]

I haven't heard/read a single complain yet about ::ADAM::Professional Audio:: sub-woofers. You can use 2 if you like as very small models are avalible. I listened the sub 10 and it was tight but I'm not sure about the smaller ones.

[TanTan]

I've mixed a song yesterday using only the Wilsons with the Hypex amp and the bass came out REALLY tight, sounds very equal on the lowest octave, balanced and big everywhere, maybe i don't really need a sub.. it's so strange that a pair of 6.5" woofers on each monitor can give such a good reference on the low end.. I've never been able to detect these frequencies on my old 8" Gene's

Originally Posted by cooker

I haven't heard/read a single complain yet about ::ADAM::Professional Audio:: sub-woofers. You can use 2 if you like as very small models are avalible. I listened the sub 10 and it was tight but I'm not sure about the smaller ones.

I've just seen their 21" bass on their website.. it looks like a monster.. can be used as a weapon ! i wonder what kind of control room needs such HUGE subs..

[cooker]

Originally Posted by TanTan

I've mixed a song yesterday using only the Wilsons with the Hypex amp and the bass came out REALLY tight, sounds very equal on the lowest octave, balanced and big everywhere, maybe i don't really need a sub.. it's so strange that a pair of 6.5" woofers on each monitor can give such a good reference on the low end.. I've never been able to detect these frequencies on my old 8" Gene's



I've just seen their 21" bass on their website.. it looks like a monster.. can be used as a weapon ! i wonder what kind of control room needs such HUGE subs..

Its is actually possible to get a good bass/sub balance even if your monitors can't deliver the freq's. Probably as you get used to your monitors, you understand the lvl.s on how the other freq's are effected but the bass or the clarity of woofer. Funny I've seen ok bass lvl.s acheved even by ns-10m's.

But the thing is you can't shape them good, by means of character. I'm really not sure how I do it, but avarage bass results are possible with no sub.

And yeah I can't imagine a sub like that in my room, after 1-2 songs I don't think it would be safe anymore to live in that house anymore

[Silvertone]

I highly recommend Velodyne subs as well... some of the best.

[TanTan]

OK, so i finally got the REL Storm III yesterday.. it sounds really good, but for some reason it sounds like it's not as fast as the Wilsons.. i mean the system sounds REALLY balanced now so maybe i just have to get used to it,

I've mixed a song on it yesterday, the low end frequencies came out perfect. the sub is filing the first octave without being "boomy" or unnatural in any way.

[Jesse Graffam]

You could move the subs closer to your listening position, and depending on how far that total distance is, it might be able to make a difference. Be very attentive to how that's changing the way the bass propagates through the room. You might find a faster sounding position that also has a more even propagation, or you might not find a place the sounds more aligned with your highs at all.

[TanTan]

Originally Posted by uncajesse

You could move the subs closer to your listening position, and depending on how far that total distance is, it might be able to make a difference. Be very attentive to how that's changing the way the bass propagates through the room. You might find a faster sounding position that also has a more even propagation, or you might not find a place the sounds more aligned with your highs at all.

Thanks, it's under the console between the monitors, i guess it will take me some time to get used to hearing the sound from three sources..

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by TanTan

Thanks, it's under the console between the monitors, i guess it will take me some time to get used to hearing the sound from three sources..

I disagree with the arbitrary idea of "moving the woofers closer to be faster" (whatever that is supposed to mean). In general you need to find the position for the woofer in the room that produces the flattest bass response at the listening position, and integrate the arrival time of the woofer with the main speakers (via time delay) so that you receive a single, coherent image. If done properly you will never notice separate sources. Having good, integrated, accurate monitoring is what separates the men from the boys!

[TanTan]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I disagree with the arbitrary idea of "moving the woofers closer to be faster" (whatever that is supposed to mean). In general you need to find the position for the woofer in the room that produces the flattest bass response at the listening position, and integrate the arrival time of the woofer with the main speakers (via time delay) so that you receive a single, coherent image. If done properly you will never notice separate sources. Having good, integrated, accurate monitoring is what separates the men from the boys!

Thanks Bob
I've been adjusting it for a few hours now with a few Cd's and an oscillator,
from Donald Fagen, Steely Dan, King Tubby and some Brazilian songs because they have lots of very dynamic low frequency instruments that have a very defined pitch like Surdu for example, I'm starting to "glue" the subwoofer to the Wilsons .. my main mistake in the first place was cutting the frequency at a too low point, now it's on more than 40Hz and the sub is much lower in level so it's starting to happen.. still not 100% there but almost.. do you have any tips for adjusting the crossover point ?

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by TanTan

Thanks Bob
I've been adjusting it for a few hours now with a few Cd's and an oscillator,
from Donald Fagen, Steely Dan, King Tubby and some Brazilian songs because they have lots of very dynamic low frequency instruments that have a very defined pitch like Surdu for example, I'm starting to "glue" the subwoofer to the Wilsons .. my main mistake in the first place was cutting the frequency at a too low point, now it's on more than 40Hz and the sub is much lower in level so it's starting to happen.. still not 100% there but almost.. do you have any tips for adjusting the crossover point ?

I have a foolproof way of adjusting the crossover just using your ears and a special test signal you can download from our site. You can get it at digido.com in the articles section. HOWEVER, while getting the crossover point and the amplitude at the crossover point right is a big step in the right direction, it doesn't help to linearize the response of the woofer itself in the room.

An accurate FFT-based analysis of the room response is a requirement to get beyond just setting the crossover and woofer level. A program called FuzzMeasure for the Mac is inexpensive, fairly easy to learn how to use and very effective. The 1/3 octave smoothing with a window response of about 100 ms corresponds very well with what the ear hears and will let you see the peaks and dips in the room, plus a waterfall response. Plus you can see the impulse response, the relative arrival times and phase and can start linearizing the woofer by its position. After that, some trapping and other treatment and you're on your way.

An amazing free program called "Room EQ Wizard" Room EQ Wizard Home Page

is also very effective and with the right head on your shoulders, study of the manual and a good interface and measurement microphone, you can also end up with a good result.

BK

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by TanTan

Thanks, it's under the console between the monitors, i guess it will take me some time to get used to hearing the sound from three sources..

The Subwoofer Conundrum

May have some ideas for you.

DC

[Barish]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I have a foolproof way of adjusting the crossover just using your ears and a special test signal you can download from our site. You can get it at digido.com in the articles section. HOWEVER, while getting the crossover point and the amplitude at the crossover point right is a big step in the right direction, it doesn't help to linearize the response of the woofer itself in the room.

BK

Hello Bob,

Many thanks for the files. Would you care to explain what to pay attention to while listening to this signal and the procedure to follow as well?

Kind regards.

B.

Edit: Sorry sorry sorry. I've just found it on your website as well. For those who wondered that, the link is: Subwoofers

[Jesse Graffam]

Originally Posted by TanTan

I've just seen their 21" bass on their website.. it looks like a monster.. can be used as a weapon ! i wonder what kind of control room needs such HUGE subs..

I used to own/operate a Turbosound Floodlight setup that had 8 TSW124 subs available on an AUX. Each with a 24-inch driver mounted into a folded horn. But it still doesn't compare to some of the new subwoofer technology coming out. If you have a good surface to acoustically couple a horn to, some of the new subs from Tom Danley can get a large room (even seating many thousands of people) flat to 10hz in many cases, WITH defenition and clarity. Which is scary, isn't it. And these are with 12-inch drivers, for the most part.

He has a theater sub that just came out btw, which is two 21" drivers mounted in a dual inward-facing tapped horn box. I'm really anxious to hear them as his old shop used to be only 30 minutes from me, but now he lives in Texas. @_o

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by Silvertone

I highly recommend Velodyne subs as well... some of the best.

Ditto here. Small room and stereo Velodyne D-10s.

[bob katz]

If no one in this thread yet has mentioned the JL Audio subs they get my big thumbs up.

BK

[Thor]

I have a JL Audio fathom f112 on loan right now.

It took a while to get integrated with my mains, and to be honest I was pretty surprised to hear how little it contributes (they're flat to about 35Hz). When I shut off the amp to the mains, there wasn't a whole lot left. However when I shut off the sub, it's a little bit like the solidity or foundation disappears. I wasn't really disappointed with the low end of the mains to begin with and haven't missed having a sub. Since I need one for 5.1, it seemed nice to be able to hear the final few cycles on the bottom end in stereo as well.

Having found the right placement, level and phase, it disappears completely as a separate entity.

Just for fun () I ran some tones, starting at 15Hz. I had signal from 16Hz up to the xover point (35Hz, 24dB/octave), clean, clear and well defined. Cued up some torture tracks to have a listen and it never broke a sweat, just filled out the bottom octave my mains lack.

Very impressive.

I've asked to get a Rel B-1 or B-2 to compare with, and hope to get one next week while I still have the fathom.

One of them will stay (or possibly a pair), which one is not yet clear.

Cheers,
Thor

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Thor

I have a JL Audio fathom f112 on loan right now.

It took a while to get integrated with my mains, and to be honest I was pretty surprised to hear how little it contributes (they're flat to about 35Hz).

Well, Thor's mains are obviously exceedingly good already so he's gilding the lily with his subwoofer. I can attest that also in cases where the mains are good but not as extended as Thor's system, the JL meets the challenge equally well, tightly and can be integrated seemlessly.

BK

[Thor]

Actually,

I snuck back to the studio tonight for an extended Stevie Wonder listening session with the new setup.





Man it sounds sweet! (and yes it *is* tempting to turn up the sub, just a little....!)

Sing it Stevie!!

Thor

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Thor

Actually,

I snuck back to the studio tonight for an extended Stevie Wonder listening session with the new setup.





Man it sounds sweet! (and yes it *is* tempting to turn up the sub, just a little....!)

Sing it Stevie!!

Thor

Impress your hip hop clients, turn it up to 11 :-).

BK

[Jesse Graffam]

Lol, does it have an 11 knob? My Apogees do, always loved the 11, even though I would be blowing up speakers if I turned it past 7 even. :P Just having the 11 there makes me happy. hahah.