Mixing & Mastering Plug-Ins, Waves is s**t?

[ozzlanda]

Firstly I will say that you may not be able to answer what I am about to ask, because, it is quite specialist, and there are few people out there who really know how to do this properly, those that do, keep themselves very tight lipped about it..

I am on a quest, I want to find the best plug-ins to mix and master my music, I don't know where to start. STOP! Now before you think, "oh this is easy", I would like to say that I am producing Dance music.

The particular type of dance music I produce is mainly progressive house and electro, I am dying to achieve a sound as great as the big boys out there who don't share any of their secrets.

For a time I was convinced I would buy a waves bundle, that was until my Audio Tech Uni tutor advised me against this. He said, "there is loads of better stuff out there, the reason you think Waves is so good is only because it's marketed so well, and it costs a fortune". He then proceeded to tell me that he could demonstrate this to me on his $13,000 ATC moniter's, expressing that the waves stuff gives a very 'thin' sound.

Maybe he's wrong, I'm not in a position to know, I thought it would be a good topic however. If any of you are interested in this and want to see if you can help, log on to www.beatport.com and have a listen to the top 10 Progressive house tracks.. How are they getting this amazing sound? Particularly artists such as "Pryda" and "Deadmau5".

What EQ's, what compressors, what etc? Can anyone recommend what they think would work well in my field?

I know most of you reading this (still) are not into this particular type of music, but I will take this opportunity to thank you if you can help me here. This is something that most know little about, because all the top artists in the genre don't mutter a word, the rest arn't into the music, and can't put a finger on what processing gear would work best.

Cheers guys, I'm interested to see your comments.

[Ben F]

The secret is good sounds to start with, that work well together, and a vision for what you want to achieve. The rest is experience. There is no magic plug-in, sorry to say. It's the skill of the musician and engineer, not the tools. A good engineer can mix a dance music track using nothing but stock plug-ins on Logic Pro, Ableton live or any other modern DAW.

Waves plug-ins sound great.

The best mastering IMO is still done using analogue hardware, especially for electronic music.

[Delta Heavy]

Originally Posted by ozzlanda

Firstly I will say that you may not be able to answer what I am about to ask, because, it is quite specialist, and there are few people out there who really know how to do this properly, those that do, keep themselves very tight lipped about it..

I am on a quest, I want to find the best plug-ins to mix and master my music, I don't know where to start. STOP! Now before you think, "oh this is easy", I would like to say that I am producing Dance music.

The particular type of dance music I produce is mainly progressive house and electro, I am dying to achieve a sound as great as the big boys out there who don't share any of their secrets.

For a time I was convinced I would buy a waves bundle, that was until my Audio Tech Uni tutor advised me against this. He said, "there is loads of better stuff out there, the reason you think Waves is so good is only because it's marketed so well, and it costs a fortune". He then proceeded to tell me that he could demonstrate this to me on his $13,000 ATC moniter's, expressing that the waves stuff gives a very 'thin' sound.

Maybe he's wrong, I'm not in a position to know, I thought it would be a good topic however. If any of you are interested in this and want to see if you can help, log on to www.beatport.com and have a listen to the top 10 Progressive house tracks.. How are they getting this amazing sound? Particularly artists such as "Pryda" and "Deadmau5".

What EQ's, what compressors, what etc? Can anyone recommend what they think would work well in my field?

I know most of you reading this (still) are not into this particular type of music, but I will take this opportunity to thank you if you can help me here. This is something that most know little about, because all the top artists in the genre don't mutter a word, the rest arn't into the music, and can't put a finger on what processing gear would work best.

Cheers guys, I'm interested to see your comments.

there aren't really any secrets, the likes of prydz, deadmau5 et al have get their sound from years of hard work, practice, talent (god forbid!) etc. there is no magic box, hardware or software, that will give you their 'sound' in an instant.

...edit: Ben got in there before me, so what he said basically

[ozzlanda]

Cheers guys,

I was always well aware that there wasn't a "magic fix" available, this was more a question addressing what people thought would be the right processing equipment to use for dance music. I compressor for example could be a good starting point, some compressors work well for it, some don't, for example, in my experience I find Fab filters compressor a great unit for what I'm doing..

Thanks for the reply's though, every bit of info helps

I do like the idea that someone mentioned as to "having a vision", I often contemplate this, yet do not sit down and write down my ideas/goals for a track.

Cheers all.

[Torg]

Delta and Ben were spot on.

Just wanted to add about waves that you gotta try them out and see which ones work well for your sound as well as workflow.

Waves make a lot stuff... many(most) will not be usefull to you. Others may be.

In terms of quality, your "tutor" was correct. They are not the the top stuff around if you compare "plugin to plugin".... but since you are in a mix situation, not mastering.... they will work out pretty good as the really high quality plugins = latency... and that can be a PITA in a mixing workflow as well as overloading your CPU, since you are working with many, many channels (as you make EDM).

Also... i've found some waves plugins can play interesting roles sometimes in creativity processing rather than quality(soundwise) processing.

Anyway... just chill a little mate... you are making too big a deal out of it.
There is not really much to hide, most has already been covered before... keep diggin and it will come.

there are many threads on waves. use the search.

[ozzlanda]

Originally Posted by Torg

Delta and Ben were spot on.

Just wanted to add about waves that you gotta try them out and see which ones work well for your sound as well as workflow.

Waves make a lot stuff... many(most) will not be usefull to you. Others may be.

In terms of quality, your "tutor" was correct. They are not the the top stuff around if you compare "plugin to plugin".... but since you are in a mix situation, not mastering.... they will work out pretty good as the really high quality plugins = latency... and that can be a PITA in a mixing workflow as well as overloading your CPU, since you are working with many, many channels (as you make EDM).

Also... i've found some waves plugins can play interesting roles sometimes in creativity processing rather than quality(soundwise) processing.

Anyway... just chill a little mate... you are making too big a deal out of it.
There is not really much to hide, most has already been covered before... keep diggin and it will come.

there are many threads on waves. use the search.

Haha cheers Torg,

I'll try to chill... haha

Thanks for the advice man, much appreciated!!

[The Listener]

I think you should go to the electronic music part of the forum and read through a couple of threads, but just a quick reply - as far as I know many use Logic and quite often also UAD and Duende plug-ins, that inlclude some of the best compressors and EQs ITB... Parallel and side-chain compression tricks are needed for getting "fatness", having good ear for using many compressors in a chain, only working a db or two - "making it pump" in a good way - that means knowing how to properly set treshold, attack and release for the desired "vision" of the sound. A good ear (and monitoring) for EQ doesn't hurt, too. "Notching" EQ style is used, too, as I know - like using "mastering" techniques already in the mix - cleaning the sounds for maximum clarity and impact... I also noticed that they are very conservative with high-end - warmness = high shelving cut, I guess... Sparse, "clean" arrangements and good source sounds seem to be the key, too.

[Hypagen]

Originally Posted by ozzlanda

How are they getting this amazing sound? Particularly artists such as "Pryda" and "Deadmau5".

If you search the Electronic Music Production Forum you'll find plenty of Youtube clips and interesting discussions on Eric Prydz and Deadmau5.

There's video of Deadmau5 in his home studio and footage of him finishing his album off in a 'real' studio with a team of professionals. I'm quite sure the end results then goes off to be professionally mastered.

What gear you have and (more importantly) how you use it is always plays a part in getting a 'good sound' but it's nice to have a team of professionals with many years of experience lend a hand!

[macleodgrant]

it is true that some plugins can mess with the music "not in a good way" so the most important thing is noticing when processing is messing up your sound. the waves plugins are awesome; even many of the old ones.

note that the sound of these songs is post mastering. if you're asking these questions, you're not the right person to master your material. get yourself an awesome mix and then let the pros master it for you to give you that final "PROFESSIONAL" sound. i think what you need to hear is some pre mastered material. go to Bob Katz website and there you may find some dance tracks pre master and then post master.

i think waves are cool but to be honest, i think the following will do you very well for this kind of music

Sonnox Bundle
Waves Musicians Bundle II
Soundtoys Native

and you're done my friend - you can do everything and more with those plugins and they're amazing!

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by ozzlanda

I do like the idea that someone mentioned as to "having a vision", I often contemplate this, yet do not sit down and write down my ideas/goals for a track.

It's that, but also the ability to actually 'hear' it in your head, first. And that's also something that a decent mastering engineer can bring to the table (desk/console...).
More specifically, often electronic music is just begging for analogue harmonic distortion of one kind or another, (if it's not already within the mix & the vibe is calling for it).

[The MPCist]

+1 to what macleodgrant said--Sonnox, Waves Musicians Bundle II, and Soundtoys would definitely be on my list.

[kosmasepsilon]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

go to Bob Katz website and there you may find some dance tracks pre master and then post master.

did a search on the site, but didn't find these examples. can you show me the link?

thanks

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by kosmasepsilon

did a search on the site, but didn't find these examples. can you show me the link?

thanks

here you go - there appears to be a dance demo there

note that you will need to register before being able to download
Downloads

i had a listen to a few tracks before getting him to master the album i was working on

[drakewire]

Waves does not provide a thin sound.... Rather the person, the ears that are mastering with the tools provided produce a thin sound.... When Waves mastering tools are used correctly, you can rival almost anything in the Analogue Realm. While it may not have the meat and potatoes as the Analogue processors, it provides ease of use.
Now, having said that Waves is not my go to processors for Mastering, in fact, I use Oxford and or Algorithmix in the digital realm. However, I have used Waves in past productions and the end result was stellar for whatever genre. Dance music is bass heavy, this is accentuated in the ranges of 50Hz- 180Hz. Same as rap or pop. I would venture to say that any mastering plug can pull out a pretty good master so long as the person listening, in a correct environment can nip and tuck the eq spectrum...

Cheers
Devon Drake

[kozlikha]

Hello mate, if you understand how to use mixing tools, then you can make a great sounding mix even with Logic, providing you recorded your source material properly, which people seem to ignore & jump straight to mixdown.

Here's a sample, all mixed & sampled with Waves, now the question is which mics & pre-amps have they used to capture, did they record to tape or digital, etc.

http://www.audiocourses.com/mp3/ACPM...-only-hifi.mp3

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by The Listener

I think you should go to the electronic music part of the forum and read through a couple of threads, but just a quick reply - as far as I know many use Logic and quite often also UAD and Duende plug-ins, that inlclude some of the best compressors and EQs ITB... Parallel and side-chain compression tricks are needed for getting "fatness", having good ear for using many compressors in a chain, only working a db or two - "making it pump" in a good way - that means knowing how to properly set treshold, attack and release for the desired "vision" of the sound.

Good post...Logic and UAD are a very effective combination. I used to use Pro tools, Waves, altiverb and UAD for most of my mixing, but have found the plug-ins in Logic can replace the Waves and Altiverb. Now now it's just Logic and UAD. I know a guy that does stellar mixes using Logic and Duende plug-ins.

Understanding compression and EQ takes years of ear training!

[spocknax]

Prydz use logic and waves & master his tracks himself.

Ive read that hes not even mastering his tracks anymore becouse it sounds so good already when mixed properly.

[MASSIVE Master]

(Let's not forget the actual definition of "mastering" in this case...)

[Time Tech]

I found that most of the WAVE plugs color / alter the sound even when inserted "flat", default start, no knobs twisted.

I've moved on to several other (IMO neutral) sounding plugs.

I stopped using all my WAVE stuff awhile ago.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

it is true that some plugins can mess with the music "not in a good way" so the most important thing is noticing when processing is messing up your sound. the waves plugins are awesome; even many of the old ones.

note that the sound of these songs is post mastering. if you're asking these questions, you're not the right person to master your material. get yourself an awesome mix and then let the pros master it for you to give you that final "PROFESSIONAL" sound. i think what you need to hear is some pre mastered material. go to Bob Katz website and there you may find some dance tracks pre master and then post master.

i think waves are cool but to be honest, i think the following will do you very well for this kind of music

Sonnox Bundle
Waves Musicians Bundle II
Soundtoys Native

and you're done my friend - you can do everything and more with those plugins and they're amazing!

Agreed!

[fenderbender.]

Hard to go wrong with the Waves SSL bundle, especially for dance music

[Slogun]

My most important investment in trying to achieve the sound I was looking for was new monitors (I went for K+H O300) and proper room treatment.

I know it's a 'dull' expense when you want to improve your gear list. But actually to hear what you're doing helps you achive your desired result much faster/better than probably any plugin-package (if you at least have some decent plug-ins to begin with

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Ben F

The secret is good sounds to start with, that work well together, and a vision for what you want to achieve. The rest is experience. There is no magic plug-in, sorry to say. It's the skill of the musician and engineer, not the tools. A good engineer can mix a dance music track using nothing but stock plug-ins on Logic Pro, Ableton live or any other modern DAW.

Waves plug-ins sound great.

The best mastering IMO is still done using analogue hardware, especially for electronic music.

I'm down with that!

It all starts with what is happening in front of those microphones!

[lerone]

Originally Posted by Ben F

The secret is good sounds to start with, that work well together, and a vision for what you want to achieve. The rest is experience. There is no magic plug-in, sorry to say. It's the skill of the musician and engineer, not the tools. A good engineer can mix a dance music track using nothing but stock plug-ins on Logic Pro, Ableton live or any other modern DAW.

Waves plug-ins sound great.

The best mastering IMO is still done using analogue hardware, especially for electronic music.

+1: Start with good sounds.

One you can't go wrong with (well that is a total f*cking lie actually) is Voxengo's Soniformer. Its got a fairly steep learning curve, but covers a lot of ground! Waves are among the best in DSP developers. Maybe not for everything, but alot of their stuff is great. People have different preferences when it comes to stuff like this, we're complex us humans.

[MASSIVE Master]

Sonoformer has dug me out of some pretty deep abysses (abysi? - Whatever the plural for "abyss" is... I guess the spell-check doesn't mind the first attempt).

[The Pressman]

I'm probably gonna be smashed for saying this round these parts, but the Fruity Multiband Compressor (comes defualt with FL Studio) can sound pretty okay.

I do a bit of house/trance/dubstep/whatever and usually use it. For a really hard sound, in FL Studio, I put on an agressive Fruity Compressor with the gain turned up followed by 2 or 3 Fruity Multiband Compressors and another one on the drum buss, and one on the master aswell. It's good becuase it barely uses any resources at all.

Sometimes I can be a bit of a compressor slut.

[feck]

I have made some great sounding dance tracks with Waves plug-ins. And with UAD plugins. And with Sonalksis plugins. And with PSP. Not to sound cocky, but the way to make a track (any genre) sound good (using the term good of course in relation and respect to the quality of the original tracks) is to know what you are doing. Any halfway decent tool will then be useful.

[spocknax]

Originally Posted by feck

I have made some great sounding dance tracks with Waves plug-ins. And with UAD plugins. And with Sonalksis plugins. And with PSP. Not to sound cocky, but the way to make a track (any genre) sound good (using the term good of course in relation and respect to the quality of the original tracks) is to know what you are doing. Any halfway decent tool will then be useful.

So ur the one behind crash and burn. Love those vocals! thumbsup

[feck]

Originally Posted by spocknax

So ur the one behind crash and burn. Love those vocals! thumbsup

Thanks man! (or girl...)

[Mr.HOLMES]

All I can say to this I do not know all the Waves Plug Ins but I know I cant live without the Waves SSL Bundle..... it is so close to the real Channel-strip EQ this was an amazing Job by Waves and if you do "Dance Music" I guess you cant live without them either.

So for me its an generalization to say "All Waves Plug Ins are a mess" all I can say to this is:

We live in a world where Plug Ins by far are stepping way out of their beginning days we have good resolution and ITB not a bad sound by any means and I guess a lot of "Dance Music" is today produced complete in ITB.

You should not worry too much about a single statement by one person out here we have cats with brilliant credits and they use Waves ...Tony Shepperd is only one example.

So plug ins is the thing I would worry about at the last point you should worry now about mixing ITB skills as well as a good room treatment for your composing/arranging/mixing.

It will take time may years until you get the first great ITB mix.