basic L2 settings

[brendley]

HI Guys

needs some help.

Mastering an unsigned acts record...For sale at their gigs....using the L2 after some epure eq ..on the L2 i have the output set to -.2db and using type 2 dither and the ultra setting...I bounce away ...BUT WHEN i IMPORT THE FILES BACK INTO TOOLS TO HAVE A LISTEN THEY STILL SEEM TO BE CLIPPING...

Is this simply a case of lowering the output to -.3db ..let me know your thoughts..

funny thing is it doesnt seem to regiter a clip when I am auditioning the limiter before i bnce..

all help apprecciatted.

[recallbeats]

waves L2 made toons of overshoots. (usualy oversampling) and if you have protools HD accel you recognize this as clipping cos HD accel can show oversample peaks. Dont have idea about safe margin in L2 this always depending on material + on the drive. try around -0.8 or -1db this can be enough but not always.

[MASSIVE Master]

Just as actual clipping doesn't always sound like clipping, you certainly don't need to BE clipping to sound like you're clipping either...

[Waltz Mastering]

I haven't used the L2 in a while but instead of the ultra setting, maybe try the normal setting.

[Ben F]

Is your master fader in Pro tools at 0dB?

[brendley]

hi all thanks yeah it is mastered in LE and then I checked the masters on a hd system inported into tools and thats where i saw the peaks..so should i bring the max output down on the L2 ...

or are you saying this is not an issue...if it is oversampling...any professional cd i import doesnt clip..so let me know your thoughts,,,unfortunately the band wants it loud..so I dont want to go there on this forum as it is done enough..your thoughts are apprecciatted

[wado1942]

You know, when numbers games are more important than quality, you WILL get clipping. Just accept it and back off the main output level by .01dB so the replication plant doesn't reject it. Virtually ALL new CD masters are painfully clipped, but they pull that trick so the digital level detectors don't notice.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

I haven't used the L2 in a while but instead of the ultra setting, maybe try the normal setting.

I thought those settings referred to the noise-shaping...? Can that (noise-shaping) affect the level, or create inter-sample clipping?

[Ben F]

To the OP, why don't you try reading the informative manual that came with your L2 software?

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Can (noise-shaping) create inter-sample clipping?

As far as I know, and depending on the amount of gain reduction, program material, frequency content and other factors, aggressive noise shaping can be a contributing factor in creating over-sample peaks, especially if he's doing any kind of sample rate conversion on the bounce.

Non the less, I almost always prefer and would recommend a less aggressive curve or a flat setting for NS on a BW limiter, and as post #2 said, the problem could also be related to the PT metering recognizing the L2 over-samples as clipping.

I guess the big question is if the op hears the clipping...

[dave-G]

Well, pretty much all settings on an L2 are "basic" settings ... BUT...

Check your gain-staging inside PT. I've received plenty of files from people who think that putting an L2 on the master fader and reducing its output ceiling to below 0dBFS means they're preventing that master fader from clipping, but that's not the case ... If you deactivate the plugin and your master faders are clipping, then your L2 is just limiting a clipped signal. Lower your master fader, or the levels of tracks feeding it until the master fader is no longer clipping and then make up the gain difference in your L2 threshold.

Same thing goes for the stage between your Epure and the L2.. The L2's ceiling could prevent the master fader from showing red, while your settings on that EQ before it could be causing clipping feeding into the L2. Again, deactivate the L2 and see if it's clipping, and back off the input levels to that EQ so you have some headroom to work with.

Also, if you're SRCing in your bounce, the bit of gain-change from the SRC process could be enough to push it into clipping ... though IME, it would be surprising for it to go from sounding clean to sounding BLATT'y in just that process.

Cheers
-dave

[24-96 Mastering]

L2 doesn't overshoot with any setting, to my knowledge.

Either you're SRCing (or doing some other processing) post the L2 on export, or you're processing on re-import (SRC on import, if PT LE does that) or processing on playing the re-imported file (channel faders not at unity, SRC, pan not set correctly, EQing, etc).

[brendley]

HI Guys yeah thanks for all that i was mastering in le and then checking in a hd system so that oversampling may make sence. So i guess i will just lower the cieling to -.3

also..i see some of you guns in here like to src seperately to mastering..is that the case can you let me know before or after you eq limit ect..also I am using cd architect to compile as Benf can see i am not big on manuals..is there a more user friendly compile program outhere??

thanks

Also Benf
I thought this forum was so we could all help eachother..I am dislexic and have trouble reading tech manuals..but if you have one on how to understand women i might read it...However I doubt you have one stuffed away in your manual draw...you keep looking mate
\
thanks again all

BA

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by brendley

src seperately to mastering..

I would sample rate convert separate to your final dither and noise shaping.

If you were doing src and dither at the same time with the ultra setting, this probably would have caused your problem.

[minister]

Originally Posted by brendley

HI Guys yeah thanks for all that i was mastering in le and then checking in a hd system so that oversampling may make sence. So i guess i will just lower the cieling to -.3

also..i see some of you guns in here like to src seperately to mastering..is that the case can you let me know before or after you eq limit ect..also I am using cd architect to compile as Benf can see i am not big on manuals..is there a more user friendly compile program outhere??

thanks

Also Benf
I thought this forum was so we could all help eachother..I am dislexic and have trouble reading tech manuals..but if you have one on how to understand women i might read it...However I doubt you have one stuffed away in your manual draw...you keep looking mate
\
thanks again all

BA

You realize that PT LE is 32 bit float and PT HD is 48bit fixed? What doesn't clip in LE will "LOOK" like it is clipping in HD.

If you read the Digi Reference Guide and the White Paper on the Digi Mix bus, you'll find that just because the red light goes on, doesn't mean it clipped.

I think BenF made a great suggestion that actually will help you. I find all kinds of useful information on how the product works and should be used. Things I never would have known had I not read the manual. It is a good habit to adopt.

[winrar]

Originally Posted by dave-G

Lower your master fader, or the levels of tracks feeding it until the master fader is no longer clipping and then make up the gain difference in your L2 threshold.

Cheers
-dave

lowering the master fader, doesnt lower the actual INPUT SIGNAL going in to the master fader... in reality, you are still clipping,
if you set your VU to input meter reading, you will see, its still clipping there... master fader lowers the output level, which is not a very good thing to do...

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by winrar

lowering the master fader, doesnt lower the actual INPUT SIGNAL going in to the master fader... in reality, you are still clipping, ...

Actually not exactly. It is very different from an analog mixer where indeed this would often be the case. There is massive, i.e. over a hundred dB. of headroom before the master fader.

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by winrar

lowering the master fader, doesnt lower the actual INPUT SIGNAL going in to the master fader... in reality, you are still clipping,
if you set your VU to input meter reading, you will see, its still clipping there... master fader lowers the output level, which is not a very good thing to do...

That's not how it works in Pro Tools, which is what the OP is using. Lowering the master fader in PT is equivalent to lowering the individual tracks feeding it.

-dave

[winrar]

Originally Posted by dave-G

That's not how it works in Pro Tools, which is what the OP is using. Lowering the master fader in PT is equivalent to lowering the individual tracks feeding it.

-dave

in this case, you can have a very heavily clipping master fader,
then pull back the master fader to avoid heavy clipping, and
still retain, good sounding mix,
compared to unity gain master fader mix ???

in protool, you can delete the master fader, and you will still have your master going out. master fader is only a visual thing on protools.

we met a lot of engineers, dont even open a master fader in protools.

are you 100 % sure.... "Lowering the master fader in PT is equivalent to lowering the individual tracks feeding it. "

also, lowering master fader, reduces your bitrate.. i am not quite sure but, it was something like every 6db reduces 1 bit ....

you are also, saying that, there is no point of watching your master fader VU, just mix, evrytime it starts clipping lower tha master fader, and carry on... if you start clipping, lower it again.... and the sound quality would be as good as no clipping unity master fader.... hmmmmmm
i dont think so....

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by winrar

in this case, you can have a very heavily clipping master fader,
then pull back the master fader to avoid heavy clipping, and
still retain, good sounding mix,
compared to unity gain master fader mix ???

If I understand you correctly .. yes.

Try it ... make a test session, import a stereo wav file to a stereo track, and push its fader up until you hear it clipping. Now make a stereo master fader and bring down the fader level, and you'll find you're no longer clipping. Hell, you could bounce/record the results of this and probably find that +6 on the channel fader and -6 on the master fader nulls well with the original file. ..

in protool, you can delete the master fader, and you will still have your master going out.

True

master fader is only a visual thing on protools.

False. The fader acts to scale the mix process on whatever outs you're assigning it to.

we met a lot of engineers, dont even open a master fader in protools.

Yes. I get a lot of clipped mixes from them.

are you 100 % sure.... "Lowering the master fader in PT is equivalent to lowering the individual tracks feeding it. "

Yep.

also, lowering master fader, reduces your bitrate.. i am not quite sure but, it was something like every 6db reduces 1 bit ....

1. You have more than enough bits to spare, the master fader just scales the results of your mix.
2. The same bit structure would apply to lowering the faders feeding the master

you are also, saying that, there is no point of watching your master fader VU, just mix, evrytime it starts clipping lower tha master fader, and carry on... if you start clipping, lower it again.... and the sound quality would be as good as no clipping unity master fader.... hmmmmmm
i dont think so....

I'm not saying that at all .. but in a situation where you have built a mix with good gainstaging and headroom, if you make some changes that push you into occasional clipping, dragging the master fader down works fine.

We're kinda diverting this thread about the L2 here, but I do think this is related. So, if this is piquing your curiosity, there's a white paper and several threads here and elsewhere (DUC, etc) that cover the workings of ProTools' mixer and its master fader.

-dave

[minister]

Dave-G is right on about how the Master Fader works in PT. It is not like an Aux Buss fader.........

[winrar]

Originally Posted by dave-G

there's a white paper and several threads here and elsewhere (DUC, etc) that cover the workings of ProTools' mixer and its master fader.

-dave

ok thank you. i wıll do some test recordings when i get time...

cheers

[dubmafia]

Originally Posted by dave-G

That's not how it works in Pro Tools, which is what the OP is using. Lowering the master fader in PT is equivalent to lowering the individual tracks feeding it.

-dave

And in other DAWs?

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by dubmafia

And in other DAWs?

I honestly don't know how it works in DAWs beyond PT, but I hope people that do will post.

-dave

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by dave-G

Lowering the master fader in PT is equivalent to lowering the individual tracks feeding it.

-dave

Sorry to stay off topic here, but if you're clipping at the master fader in Pro Tools, and you've got a plugin on said master fader which is also clipping, and you lower that master fader will you still be clipping the plugin? This thread is leading me to believe the answer here is "no".

I've always been hazy on how the master fader really works in Pro Tools, and for what ever reason the particular sentence above is making it finally "click" for me.

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

Sorry to stay off topic here, but if you're clipping at the master fader in Pro Tools, and you've got a plugin on said master fader which is also clipping, and you lower that master fader will you still be clipping the plugin? This thread is leading me to believe the answer here is "no".

You are correct, as master fader inserts are post-fader.

... and then the master fader meters are post-inserts, which brings us back to "dō"

A master fader in Pro Tools is essentially a trim-stage before whatever mixing/summing-stage (outputs or busses) it's assigned to, followed by a set of inserts, followed by meters.

Cheers!
-dave

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by dave-G

You are correct, as master fader inserts are post-fader.

... and then the master fader meters are post-inserts, which brings us back to "dō"

A master fader in Pro Tools is essentially a trim-stage before whatever mixing/summing-stage (outputs or busses) it's assigned to, followed by a set of inserts, followed by meters.

Cheers!
-dave

Awsome. Thanks Dave for making sense of it all. For what ever reason, the way you've explained it makes perfect sense to me.