Warming Virtual Analogues and making them cut through the mix

[PeteJames]

I use VSTI's synths and drums as it's all I can afford. I'm thinking of investian in a sequential pro one after a demo since I don't know the difference in sound yet as I haven't had the pleasure of trying one yet.

I was just wondering if there are any more economical alternatives to getting tons of outboard gear? If I was to invest in some kind of analogue mixer (I have an xone 92 but doubt that counts), compressor, tube or eq would that achieve what I want?

From what I've read on here the assumption seems to be that analogue gear Synths and Drum machines can sound more bold, distinctive and punchy and stand out in the mix, which is very important in techno.

Just when I think my lead, bass or drums sound good I use a PSP vintage warmer on a channel and it sounds 10x better, more beefy, warm and punchy. Whilst this is gear it tells me that my VST's can sound that great on their own, which leads me to think I'm missing something if I'm having to do this, but I don't know.

I've also hear good things about the BBE sonic maximizer.

Are PSP and BBE plugin's the way to go or is their a piece of outboard that will give me more definition, warmth and punchiness?

Is the Virtual Vs. Analogue synth argument more about how they are mastered in my case? I'm not fixated on getting 'true vintage' tones. I just want my VST's to sound amazing without slapping a vintage warmer plugin and adjusting the settings.

Still, if I can hear a dramatic improvement (without increasing the actual volume - maybe the percieved volume though) maybe I'm on the right track?

I guess i'm referring to the phrase 'warming up the signal' but with added clarity, depth and punch in the mix.

Do you think it's just a possbile to achieve just as great results using BBE & PSP as it is as spending 10,000's of pounds on outboard? Or is buying one workhorse outboard mastering appliance the way to go? If the latter, what would you reccomend? I currently work in the box and use a Native Instuments audio 8 soundcard to output the sound (I got it with Traktor Scratch so I use it for both).

Please excuse all the questions, I'm relatively new but working hard to improve my skills and knowledge

Thanks, Pete

[tribeofenki]

Hi. You just exposed the common issues of ME in these digital days.
Every single mastering engineer is into this Quest, as a RPG in his/her real life.
Here on GS you'll may find Bob Katz, Charles Dye, Robert Babicz and many more who are deep into this...

Good luck on your endeavours

[wado1942]

I use VSTI's synths and drums as it's all I can afford. I'm thinking of investian in a sequential pro one after a demo since I don't know the difference in sound yet as I haven't had the pleasure of trying one yet.

I like Sequential's stuff. Flexible and somewhat under the RADAR so they're relatively inexpensive.

If I was to invest in some kind of analogue mixer (I have an xone 92 but doubt that counts), compressor, tube or eq would that achieve what I want?

The person operating the gear is more imporant than the gear in most cases. But it's certainly more ergonomic and I think good analogue gear sounds better than good digital gear, though bad digital stuff tends to sound better than bad analogue (within reason that is). That's a personal preference.

From what I've read on here the assumption seems to be that analogue gear Synths and Drum machines can sound more bold, distinctive and punchy and stand out in the mix,

I certainly think so. A friend of mine has a bunch of synths, analogue and digital and the analogue synths blow the digital ones out of the water in terms of usability and sound quality. But the main problem is that they try to pack too many features into too cheap of a box. That's the bane of every keyboard made post 1986 or so. I'll quote Brian Eno who said in reference to one of his keyboards "It has infinite useless possibilities. I really wish somebody would come up with a keyboard that had maybe six sounds I could use all the time"

Just when I think my lead, bass or drums sound good I use a PSP vintage warmer on a channel and it sounds 10x better, more beefy, warm and punchy. Whilst this is gear it tells me that my VST's can sound that great on their own, which leads me to think I'm missing something if I'm having to do this, but I don't know.

Real instruments are always better than samples of instruments. Just the way of the world. How different they are depends on the quality of the samples and the instruments from which they were taken. Sorry, I don't use samples for anything so I can't relate too much here.

I've also hear good things about the BBE sonic maximizer.

You heard wrong.

Are PSP and BBE plugin's the way to go or is their a piece of outboard that will give me more definition, warmth and punchiness?

Definition, warmth and punchiness are factors of the source. If you get good sound sources, you don't need a bunch of bandaids to achieve good mixes. You can polish a turd.....
All the best mixes I've ever done came from well recorded sources. I've been in situations where the original recordings were so good, I just had to bring up the faders, add a little reverb, maybe a touch of compression and I was done. I've also gotten recordings to mix where the record engineer already EQed and compressed the tracks to make the sources sound like he wanted. Those are usually the hardest to mix. I'm talking about a name producer here too, he beat the tracks into submission with a hammer so anything I did just caused the tracks to fall apart.

Is the Virtual Vs. Analogue synth argument more about how they are mastered in my case?

Not really. The mastering process is about the same regardless of the sound source.

I'm not fixated on getting 'true vintage' tones. I just want my VST's to sound amazing without slapping a vintage warmer plugin and adjusting the settings.

Again, I'm a hardware guy so I'm not going to be much help here. Much of my experience with sampled sources has involved reamping or replacing the samples. There are some truly decent virtual synths out there but analogue synths were meant to be run through amps similar to what guitars use. Guitar amps do some pretty heavy tone shaping, including rolling off the top end which is important. When working with virtual synths (which are made to emulate analogue synths), you don't get that effect because your samples don't pass through any kind of amplifiers, speakers or the air. It's like pure angular shrillness beamed directly into your brain. I recently mastered a very good, rather old school sounding album. The synth sounds were very harsh and irritating though. It really didn't fit with the rest of the album which was realy open and warm sounding. So I had the mix engineer pipe the synth recording through his low-end living room stereo and rerecord it back to the DAW. He made no other changes, but just having some speakers push the air in a room made all the difference.

Still, if I can hear a dramatic improvement (without increasing the actual volume - maybe the percieved volume though) maybe I'm on the right track?

There's the key.

Do you think it's just a possbile to achieve just as great results using BBE & PSP

No.

as it is as spending 10,000's of pounds on outboard? Or is buying one workhorse outboard mastering appliance the way to go?

As I said earlier, the sound is in the source. Mastering probably won't help much if they didn't sound fantastic in the first place. You don't need a lot of high $$ gear to get good sound, but it takes knowledge and hard work.

[PeteJames]

Wow, extremely thorugh, thanks! I tend to use Virtual analogue software than samples but I must consider the sound sources bad given my percieved vast improvment by using the PSP compressor.

I guess wealthy studio owners have it easy in a way. I doubt its hard to make a $2000 mic sound good for example lol.

What would you suggest then. Getting some real hardware synths and drum machines?

When I was referring to mastering Virtual instruments to make them sound good I used the wrong terminology. I meant tweaking the sound source (soft synths) using external plugins (PSP compressor) to make them sound large and defined. I want my instruments to sound bass ass on their own, especially in the mix.

What's wrong with the BBE stuff, I haven't used i've heard some pro techno/trance producers in magazines swear by it?

[wado1942]

I tend to use Virtual analogue software than samples but I must consider the sound sources bad given my percieved vast improvment by using the PSP compressor.

That doesn't necessarily mean your sources are bad, there's all sorts of processors to add color to sound. They wouldn't exist if they didn't improve things.

What would you suggest then. Getting some real hardware synths and drum machines?

They couldn't hurt, but I'd start with a good guitar amp. Something with a mid tone control and maybe a 12" speaker.

What's wrong with the BBE stuff, I haven't used i've heard some pro techno/trance producers in magazines swear by it?

The Sonic Maximizer was designed to help reduce phase shifts created by poorly aligned PA speaker systems. They do fine for that, even if they're not the most accurate units (they really need variable crossovers). People with no knowledge of recording or mixing tend to use them as bandaids for poor technique because they can hype up the top end.

[edit] Here's a quick demo I slapped together. It's 2 versions of the exact same performance. The first is a DI and the second is just an SM57 I threw in front of my Kustom 250. You can hear a very edgy, rather characterless sound in the DI example. The second is much easier to enjoy because the harsh overtones have been reduced by the speaker but the sound also has a lot more character.
http://www.gcmstudio.com/audioonly/divsamp.mp3

That's a Sequential Max BTW.

[PeteJames]

A massive difference between the two! The second example sound alot more vintage. I'm not sure which I prefer but the 2nd one is growing on me and definitely has more character. Really interesting example actually, amazing how one piece of gear in the signal path can totally alter the character of your music.

[PeteJames]

Actually, this was the piece of gear I was thinking of to make Virtual instruments sound analogue, TL Audio Fat track or TL audio Fat man

TL Audio Fat Track

TL Audio Fat Man

Good idea or is it still like 'polishing a turd'?

[Bob Olhsson]

To be honest, the arrangement and using the appropriate voice leading is going to make a far greater difference than any kind of signal processing. Once you get that right, the right reverb and delay treatment can make even the cheesiest sounding instruments sound ballsy and great.

[PeteJames]

Oh. I haven't got in that deep wit those effects, as I've mainly been focusign my attention on learning synthesis. I've taught myself alot but TBH, I know little about pro mastering an sound ect. I could really do with work experience in a pro studio. Anyone want a 23 year old tea boy with a Masters degree? I am amazing at making tea

[wado1942]

You know, running a digital source through an analogue processor is just going to let it continue to sound digital with analogue processing. Now some processors are designed to be dirty sounding, in which case, you have dirty digital sound. I started hearing about engineers switching to digital recording formats and piling up all sorts of tube gear, driving the crap out of it to get a more "analogue" sound. It never made sense to me. I have an analogue sound even though all my equipment runs WELL below the saturation/clipping point. I don't have a single piece of tube gear in my whole studio aside from my AC15. I'm not saying tube gear is bad, I'm just saying the analogue sound doesn't come from overdriving tube gear or tape.

But seriously, you can run through all the processors you want but it still won't sound like an analogue source unless the source is analogue. Now in my example, that WAS an analogue source and it still sounded really edgy & steryl until I turned on the microphone that captured the amp's output. Natural tone shaping of electronic and physical/mechanical interactions MADE that synth sound work. I had to listen to the direct recording at about 70dB to keep from hurting my ears. I'll go out on a limb and say most of the synth recordings from earlier days (that big analogue sound) were at the very least a direct sound mixed with a real amp driving a speaker with a microphone in front of it. Some of them were strictly DI but there was often enough bleed in the studio that other mics picked up the sound and adding ambience to an otherwise shrill dry sound. They also tended to drown synths in plate reverb which also took off a lot of the edge.

[PeteJames]

I don't have any analogue source gear at the moment so should I get some? I've looking at an SCI pro one or future retro 777 / XS and Vermona DRM III in terms of getting my 1st analogue gear.

[lerone]

A very solid and cheap way of giving your VSTi that warm density you describe would be to record the output of your synth to a Hi-Fi vhs. It will DEFINITELY give it more warmth and density and it has amazing wow / flutter characteristics and an exceptional noise floor (believe it not) . DONT USE A STANDARD VHS because a) its monaural b)the noise floor is very high.

DO USE A STANDARD VHS IF a) you want a more lo-fi sound b) don't mind the noise floor.


Very simple, very cheap and will do the job nicely providing you dont mind the additional AD conversion, but the pros will most likely outweigh the cons for this.

Hope this helps mate!

Toby

[wado1942]

I don't have any analogue source gear at the moment so should I get some? I've looking at an SCI pro one or future retro 777 / XS and Vermona DRM III in terms of getting my 1st analogue gear.

As I said earlier, it couldn't hurt. But I've also said several times that the biggest difference is in how those sounds are captured. You'll never get that "big fat" synth sound without an electro-mechanical or acoustic element to shape the tone into what was meant to be heard by people. The original synths were never meant to be used without an amplifier. People just came to do it (especially in recent years) because it's easier.

[Darius van H]

IMO an EQ like the Massive Passive or the API 5500 can make a huge difference to computer generated sounds, which can tend to sound a bit, er, computery.

Obviously, working with an outboard EQ could seriously hinder your work-flow, recallability etc.

[Nordenstam]

Hi!

A bit late to this thread. Some excellent tips and suggestions in here, especially from Wado1942! Cheers to that. Though I feel that your tips may fit better in a context of "normal" music, where the dominant soundscape is shaped by real instruments. In that context, amping etc may be the bees knees.

As for techno - the industrial type you'll find at 4am in an dusty concrete bunker, dark club venue etc - there are no frame of reference, no real sounds to compare to, no need to match the acoustic signature of other (mic'ed) instruments. Techno is usually pure machine music without any trace of realness. In such a context, amping and mic'ing may be reduntant. Most such venues have plenty of 'verb in the room anyway, so a dry sound usually works fine as is.

Pete James, your assumption that hardware techno machines sounds bigger and better is usually true. Not because there is something wrong with ITB, it's because machines like the 303 and 909 are restricted in their sonic range. It's actually quite hard to make them sound bad! They have a limited range and within that range, most any combination of knob settings usually sounds good. As the sonic range of an instrument expands, the possibility for stupid/weak/"wrong" sounds also grows. Big machines with loads of options usually have a bigger palette of good sounds - and bad ones. So it takes more from the programmer to make it sound good. ITB is the biggest machine there is.

My experience is that ITB can be made to sound as good as hardware. But.. Most of those who do achieve that do have previous experience with hardware. It makes it easier to have a sonic goal. With a computer there's always more options than anyone could possibly amass in hardware, no matter how many machines they collect. It makes it that much easier to go wild in the boundless soundscapes. So if you want to learn faster, getting something like a machinedrum would perhaps be a good trick. It'll cost you less than any mastering processor, it'll learn you a lot about synthesis and it'll sound awesome on it's own. If you can't make it sound good - you'll know for certain that it's YOUR fault and not blame the machine. ITB users are usually too quickly frustrated, giving up on creating a good sound long before they're even halfway there. If you keep at it and insist on creating something good with what you have - you'll eventually succeed.

If you read around on the forum you'll find that there are two tips that comes up no matter which style of music the context is about:

Source - do everything you can to make the source sound as good as possible. "Fix it in the mix" is a lazy mentality and usually ends up with a plastic feeling if you take it too far. In techno, that means to keep shaping and sculpting your sound source until it sounds as great as you can possibly get it. I love synthesizers for that reason, as there is almost no end to how much you can change the sound source. Applying post processing is a great way to learn sound and I've done tons of that too. But in the end, the sounds that works best are usually the ones that are programmed to be right from the get go - without relying on post processing. The latter may be the icing on the cake, but it'll make your stomach hurt if there's nothing but icing.

Monitoring - this is the best upgrade you can do! Acoustics first, monitors second, DAC third. I'd personally put my investment here before anything else. You can't fix what you can't hear and you can't create great sounds if you can't hear what a great sound actually sounds like. I made techno for 10+ years on regular monitors in untreated rooms before I finally understood the listening thing and started upgrading the monitoring chain. What a relief! Everything is sooo much easier. It's like going from an old CRT telly with VHS tapes to a 50" flat screen with HD resolution.


This is just my opinion here and now. You'll probably find the exact different opinion too.. Hope it at least helps a little bit.


Cheers,

Andreas Nordenstam

[807Recordings]

I have cut record 100% VST or softsynth, 100% modular analog synth and all analog chain straight to record, and combos of both.

The ones that people though where pure analog synths where infact Native Instrument Reaktor, and other VST. Ones that people where though where digital where all analog gone through SSL to half inch tape at 30ips. All sounded good though and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. Even on a system with Top Notch monitoring like Wilson Audio Speakers.

How you use it and understand signal flow is all that matters. For me I use whatever is best and exploit the best attributes of that specific format. I do believe though to do this your monitoring chain should be the best it can be and as neutral as possible.

All things said and done though and with unlimited budget I give the nod towards analog and tape. But not budget stuff.

Oh and for digital its almost always 24bit 96KHz.

[Eloheim]

Originally Posted by Lupo

machines like the 303 and 909 are restricted in their sonic range. It's actually quite hard to make them sound bad! They have a limited range and within that range, most any combination of knob settings usually sounds good. As the sonic range of an instrument expands, the possibility for stupid/weak/"wrong" sounds also grows. Big machines with loads of options usually have a bigger palette of good sounds - and bad ones. So it takes more from the programmer to make it sound good.

Even though I'm into different kinds of music for the most part... this sounds very smart to me!

[OurDarkness]

The assumption that you MUST have an analog source to get the sound you are after is wrong.

If you ask yourself how do you perceive warmth, openess, punch and so on, then I am sure you will find the right machines and with practice you will also find the right ways.

thumbsup

[yareck]

Originally Posted by PeteJames

From what I've read on here the assumption seems to be that analogue gear Synths and Drum machines can sound more bold, distinctive and punchy and stand out in the mix, which is very important in techno.

I thought so through many years, but now I'm not so sure. These days, software synths are as good as hardware IMO. Ear is the key and the way of sound perception in frequency, dynamic and time range which is different for each person.

Originally Posted by PeteJames

Just when I think my lead, bass or drums sound good I use a PSP vintage warmer on a channel and it sounds 10x better, more beefy, warm and punchy.

10x better after PSP Vintage Warmer sounds like autosuggestion but OK...

Autosuggestion is a powerful thing. I remember when I've bought Smart C2, plugged into a chain, seen the working meters and thought "God, what a sound", "I always dreamed about that sound", I even called my wife to listen (she said "oh, nice") and then I've realized that C2 was BYPASSED
So where is the truth about the sound?
The truth is in a good sex in the morning

Originally Posted by PeteJames

Do you think it's just a possbile to achieve just as great results using BBE & PSP as it is as spending 10,000's of pounds on outboard?

Depending what you mean by "great results". For me great result is when I can afford for $10k equalizer and tweak a little bit for pleasure, at least we all are gearslutz.
Does it have economical sense for techno to think about such amounts of cash for processing?
These days I seriously doubt. But if perfection is your aim and you don't look at expenses, so why not?

If we're talking about sound processing, not the synths, There is STILL a noticeable difference beetween analog & plugin. But it will change in a few years I guess.

[space2012]

Originally Posted by PeteJames

the assumption seems to be that analogue gear Synths and Drum machines can sound more bold, distinctive and punchy and stand out in the mix, which is very important in techno.

Is the Virtual Vs. Analogue synth argument more about how they are mastered in my case? I'm not fixated on getting 'true vintage' tones. I just want my VST's to sound amazing without slapping a vintage warmer plugin and adjusting the settings.

Still, if I can hear a dramatic improvement (without increasing the actual volume - maybe the percieved volume though) maybe I'm on the right track?

I guess i'm referring to the phrase 'warming up the signal' but with added clarity, depth and punch in the mix.

Do you think it's just a possbile

not all the gear in the world would make a VA/VSTi better if you have a bad soundcard and a bad wordclock.

VAs & VSTi depend so much in the DACS and Wordclocks used for playback.
and real synths depend so much in the ADC and wordclock used for recording.

get a better wordclock and a better DAC, that will make the same VA/VSTi to sound amazing.
vs. real analog synths, both tested a/b in analog mixer, or 1x plugged to L the other to R,

to record its another level,
not the best synths in the world would sound better if you have a bad AD Converter and a bad wordclock.

is not the same if your favorite analog synth is recorded with a soundblaster live 5.1 24-Bits,
vs.
the same synth recorded with a Manley SLAM! Digital, or Weiss ADC2 mk2

totally diferent sound.

my kenton plugstation + yamaha plg150-an
has DAcs based on same chip as behringer ada8000 & alesis ai-3 and some ADAT machines,
and also has ADAT outs,
the internal plugstation crystal clock is far from atomic clocks.

but i can reclock the adat outs with RME hdsp9632 or Lynx AES16+ls-adat, with my drawmer m-clock, and use a better DAC that the stock DACs in plugistation,
and the diference is noticeable even with small speakers.
BIG diference same algorithms with diferent DAC & clock.
with Roland MMP-2 and Drawmer M-Clock + 6ft. 99.997% true OFC cables,
sounds super Punchy, clear, transparent, defined, more dynamic range, freq. range and harmonics.

also clean AC power, will affect the wordclock jitter, and AD/DA converters noise floor,
also the real analog synths noise floor.
also get furman ar-15 series ][ minium.

i like much more my kenton plugstation + plg150-an reclocked with rme hdsp+m-clock+ar-15][, better than my ex- tb303 & arp2600.

[Eloheim]

Originally Posted by yareck

Autosuggestion is a powerful thing. I remember when I've bought Smart C2, plugged into a chain, seen the working meters and thought "God, what a sound", "I always dreamed about that sound", I even called my wife to listen (she said "oh, nice") and then I've realized that C2 was BYPASSED
So where is the truth about the sound?

I'm sure we've all done something like this before. But it takes a real man to admit it tutt

[PeteJames]

Thanks, for all the great comments and advice. I'm thinking of pickign up some hardwave, a vermona DRM1 mk3 or machine drum and maybe a waldorf microwave xt since I want more hands on and simplified gear.

I absolutely love the 909, its just s damn simple yet within seconds you can tweak brilliant punch beats, no menu's no presets, nothing. Simple...Effective. I have a video of jeff mills using it front of what must be 20-30 thousand people and the sound it punches out with no processing or eq is PHENOMINAL! Is the machinedrum not quite complex? Any instrument with a menu screen normally is

I'm currenly running in the box through my Native Instruments Audo 8 Sound card through my xone 92 into my cheap demon amp and cheap monitors. This sound card's considered quite good for the money (I got it because I use Traktor Scratch to DJ with). I will be getting some actives soon (I was going to get some but decided a trip to london to test them all is in order) which will take the xone 92, my cheap amp out of the equation. Is my soundcard fine, It does 24 bit or would I need to upgrade to MOTU or RME? I don't know what world clock is really, does it make a difference when mixing in the box? Is it something all your audio passes through?

With regard to the Vintage Warmer, I actually mean it. I always bypass it to check the difference and it is quite huge. I could try and post some clips if you like.

[Delta Heavy]

Originally Posted by PeteJames

I don't know what world clock is really, does it make a difference when mixing in the box? Is it something all your audio passes through?

hi pete

ignore that rant about clocking, you don't have to worry about having a clock, your setup certainly doesn't need one and probably won't for the foreseeable future

in regards to your initial question, you could consider a nice analogue monosynth if you are looking more 'warmth and punch' with you synth sounds, something like the DSI mopho which is incredible value for money, or more pricey options such as a voyager

[superchibisan]

avoid the bbe unit. it has a place in the pa set up, and works great, but it has no place in the studio imo. (i've used it religiously in the studio, and my conclusion is that its Fing shite)

vintage warmer is a great utility.

personally, i like super digital sounding sounds. but i like analogue vitality as well. solution? make a digital sound and using certain plugins (PSP VW), i mix in a nice analogue sounding version of the noise.

the thing about electronic music is you have no boundaries. amping and micing a sound is a GREAT idea. but it doesn't sound the best. so combine it with another sound that fills in the gaps. sound synthesis is a very very integral part of the equation.

personally, i have no problem making ni massive sound analogue from the beginning. and i rarely use the vintage warmer on anything but mastering (lightly damnit!).


number one suggestion i've read so far is upgrade your monitoring set up. that denon does NOT cut the cake, and you'll hear an incredible difference in your production if you get something a bit more accurate. (personally, i feel your problem lies completely in your current speaker set up)

if you have a budget, i suggest blue sky exo for dance music, or if you can swing a bit more, dynaduio bm5a's or blue sky pro desk or media desk (having a sub helps out TREMENDOUSLY)

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Hi!

My experience is that ITB can be made to sound as good as hardware. But.. Most of those who do achieve that do have previous experience with hardware. It makes it easier to have a sonic goal. With a computer there's always more options than anyone could possibly amass in hardware, no matter how many machines they collect. It makes it that much easier to go wild in the boundless soundscapes. So if you want to learn faster, getting something like a machinedrum would perhaps be a good trick. It'll cost you less than any mastering processor, it'll learn you a lot about synthesis and it'll sound awesome on it's own. If you can't make it sound good - you'll know for certain that it's YOUR fault and not blame the machine. ITB users are usually too quickly frustrated, giving up on creating a good sound long before they're even halfway there. If you keep at it and insist on creating something good with what you have - you'll eventually succeed.

Good advice!

I find most of the best mixes from electronic music are people that may work ITB but have experience with real analogue (synths and mixing), as you have said. Once you have that 'vision' in your brain it's much easier to make something that sounds digital more organic. I think analogue filters can make a big difference to digital synths. I actually like some of the sharper more digital sounds in electronic music....

[807Recordings]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Good advice!

I find most of the best mixes from electronic music are people that may work ITB but have experience with real analogue (synths and mixing), as you have said. Once you have that 'vision' in your brain it's much easier to make something that sounds digital more organic. I think analogue filters can make a big difference to digital synths. I actually like some of the sharper more digital sounds in electronic music....

Analog filters are hard to top. So is the knowledge on how to use analog gear. Theres is a vast majority of "Gear Head Music" that is nothing more than mental masturbation. The whole look I used a 909 or Serge etc crowd but the music has no meaning of substance. Now there is also a whole lot of clippity cliche clak out there also with a lot of cool sounds and no groove. I think just like the days of hip hop before it became crap you learned how to loop two records to make the Hip To The Hop Sound. That carried into the drum machines. Same for Analog gear. You learn how to make a groove in an analog sequencer then you make the track.

The limitation push the creativity. That is also why I still love Vinyl. Using both has advantages and there is no absolute.

[desotoslo]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

To be honest, the arrangement and using the appropriate voice leading is going to make a far greater difference than any kind of signal processing. Once you get that right, the right reverb and delay treatment can make even the cheesiest sounding instruments sound ballsy and great.

stike