Passive EQ shoot out...

[Babaluma]

just picked it up in tokyo yesterday. looks and sounds amazing. i am well pleased.

[sabian]

Cool! Have to get those yellow switches for mine, or green, purple, orange....
You won't need the bypass much though... Knobs look the same, geeeeentle fuuck!
Enjoy

[Babaluma]

thanks. i got the yellow switch covers from small bear electronics, and have just ordered some black machined aluminum knobs to replace the stock plastic ones.

now saving for the earlybird 2.2...

...and wondering whether or not i should trade my pair of chandler germ comps in for a phoenix mastering version...

i had a quick chance to play with the pullet yesterday on full mixes, tr-606 drum machine, female vocals and acoustic guitar. whilst i'm obviously still in the honeymoon abusive phase (cranking the knobs to see what it can do), so far it sounds lovely. the high shelving cut/boost is quite dramatic, but i imagine it will just the thing for taming guitars, getting that warm 70's rolled off tangerine dream sound on mixes, or boosting treble on a darker ribbon mic.

[William Bowden]

The phoenix is a pretty different beast to the chandlers, if you're into the 70's the chandlers may be just the ticket - just use the wet/dry control!

The King

ps Matt, where's this buzz thingy at?

[Zeljko]

Originally Posted by sabian

Bok Zeljko!
Nice kit collection you have, didn't know that kind of "quality awareness" existed in Croatia, but then I'm mostly there on holidays ... and Zagreb in passing.
Don't know Retro 176 - something I should check out? Tell us more... RoundBadge?
Feel free to PM me re EAR or whatever.
Back to the topic, I should be getting in the Mini Massive and the Gyraf (by a very kind fellow slutz member) to try soon, will report back. The Buzz unit has been delayed, hmmmm

Hi Sabian,

Thanks for the "quality awareness". I do my best. I have a pair of 2254's vintage

on the way.

Retro 176 is really great, may be with the SH comp, the best unit in my studio.

Highly recomanded

I am really interested in EAR 660 .How would you describe it?

If you come to Zagreb you could bring it for a quick trial ...

Btw, you speak croatian?


Regards

[sabian]

Originally Posted by Zeljko

Hi Sabian,

Thanks for the "quality awareness". I do my best. I have a pair of 2254's vintage

on the way.

Retro 176 is really great, may be with the SH comp, the best unit in my studio.

Highly recomanded

I am really interested in EAR 660 .How would you describe it?

If you come to Zagreb you could bring it for a quick trial ...

Btw, you speak croatian?
Regards

Hi Zeljko,
I'll check the Retro 176 out ....
I'm afraid I won't be lugging my 660s with me on holiday this year ...
But, should you happen to be in London (cheap Wizzair from ZG) you're very welcome to pop in and have a go. Do you have any EAR dealers in HR? If not maybe I can help ... I'm not sure me describing the 660s will help you much - let's just say they completely blew me (and some other people here) away, I had them next to pretty much anything remotely of interest I could get my hands on, see my other post here...
but not Retro 176 or SH though... BIG and tight springs to mind first.
I never heard of any "demo" units so you really have to find somebody who owns them to hear them, or hire them perhaps... in fact I might know where you could hire a pair from (not me), PM me
Da, govorim hrvatski od rodjenja ...

[syra]

I have a pair of EAR660s and Retro 176s.

Very different animals. RB and I did numerous tests with his SH compressor too (he also has an EAR660 and RI176).

The 176 has a kinda-old-school thick tubey sound. Its color is a bit of a smiley face EQ and its my first choice with sounds that have annoying mid range peaks. I'm in the middle of mixing an EP in the vein of Norah Jones and the 2 Retro 176's in the buss were the best out of everything else I have... record to 1/2" at 15ips at the end and you're golden

The EAR660s are very different. Color wise they accentuate the high mids a bit but because of the low-mid bump and the smooth rounding off of the extreme high end (I'm describing how I hear things) they sound like the most beautiful 3D honey coating ever made. The EAR660s would NOT be my choice in a high-mid heavy vocal or arrangement. Having said that if a good engineer tracked the project you wouldn't have high-mid heavy tracks anyway.

Compression-wise, the Retro 176s are very smooth and give you the in-built sidechain filter which can prove a godsend sometimes. The Retro cannot be pushed to pump because of the nature of the compression and the slow release even at its fastest setting.

The EAR660's have the knee control which allows even more invisible compression than the 176s but also a fast release preset (1) which can turn the box into a drums pumper that will shame even the famous chandler TG1!

Based on the compression characteristic I would say that although it lacks attack and release controls, filters and output knobs, the EAR660 IS more versatile than the Retros. The colors though are so opposite that I would never think of using them in the same situation - they are definitely NOT interchangeable.

The Shadow Hills Mastering compressor is a beautiful comp. The opto section is very smooth and nice but IMO the discrete one is where it is. Its like an SSL comp with great smack, smooth at times and crush when you need it! Extremely flexible compressor (well...its like 2 comps in 1!).

Color-wise even with the various transformers it is not a "Tone Box" like the EAR660 or the Retro 176. The best way to describe it is that I would patch the EAR660 and RI176 in the path just for the color without using compression. The SH comp not as much. But if I think of a rock/pop comp that I need to push on the buss, the SH is king.

Hope this helped

[Zeljko]

Originally Posted by syra

I have a pair of EAR660s and Retro 176s.

Very different animals. RB and I did numerous tests with his SH compressor too (he also has an EAR660 and RI176).

The 176 has a kinda-old-school thick tubey sound. Its color is a bit of a smiley face EQ and its my first choice with sounds that have annoying mid range peaks. I'm in the middle of mixing an EP in the vein of Norah Jones and the 2 Retro 176's in the buss were the best out of everything else I have... record to 1/2" at 15ips at the end and you're golden

The EAR660s are very different. Color wise they accentuate the high mids a bit but because of the low-mid bump and the smooth rounding off of the extreme high end (I'm describing how I hear things) they sound like the most beautiful 3D honey coating ever made. The EAR660s would NOT be my choice in a high-mid heavy vocal or arrangement. Having said that if a good engineer tracked the project you wouldn't have high-mid heavy tracks anyway.

Compression-wise, the Retro 176s are very smooth and give you the in-built sidechain filter which can prove a godsend sometimes. The Retro cannot be pushed to pump because of the nature of the compression and the slow release even at its fastest setting.

The EAR660's have the knee control which allows even more invisible compression than the 176s but also a fast release preset (1) which can turn the box into a drums pumper that will shame even the famous chandler TG1!

Based on the compression characteristic I would say that although it lacks attack and release controls, filters and output knobs, the EAR660 IS more versatile than the Retros. The colors though are so opposite that I would never think of using them in the same situation - they are definitely NOT interchangeable.

The Shadow Hills Mastering compressor is a beautiful comp. The opto section is very smooth and nice but IMO the discrete one is where it is. Its like an SSL comp with great smack, smooth at times and crush when you need it! Extremely flexible compressor (well...its like 2 comps in 1!).

Color-wise even with the various transformers it is not a "Tone Box" like the EAR660 or the Retro 176. The best way to describe it is that I would patch the EAR660 and RI176 in the path just for the color without using compression. The SH comp not as much. But if I think of a rock/pop comp that I need to push on the buss, the SH is king.

Hope this helped

Great, many thanks!

[MattGray]

Originally Posted by William Bowden

ps Matt, where's this buzz thingy at?

Hey William, It's in transit as we speak, should arrive here early this week... I also just picked up a Massive Passive ME & a Mini Massive from Manley today from Ellaways (thanks to Syntec) to include in the shootout. Still waiting on the SPL PassEQ & Thermionic Culture Pullet from Awave to really get the shootout underway.

I want to give as much competition to the Buzz as possible so that it doesn't get let off easily. I'll be sure to try the Massivo with the unbalanced out as well as I'm finding that I'm not really into the sound of transformers with most EQ's. Compressors seem ok but not EQ's... seems to muddy up the low end & less detail.

btw... I ended up getting an API 5500 to try out against your old API 550M's should arrive this week as well. Need to make decisions on whether to keep the Chris Muth mods or put in an added input transformer bypass option or just keep the 5500 (if I prefer how it sounds) & sell the 550M's. One things for sure it should make for a cool Gear Slutz photo with all these EQ's laying around the studio this week...

Matt

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by MattGray

I'm finding that I'm not really into the sound of transformers with most EQ's. Compressors seem ok but not EQ's... seems to muddy up the low end & less detail.

This does not make sense...generaly speaking a transformer is on the input and output of a device (sometimes intestage as well) and does not care whether the circuit is an EQ or a compression circuit.What you're really saying is that somehow most EQ's you've heard had transformers in them you did NOT like and somehow most compressors had transformers you DID like...

[sabian]

Hey Matt,
this has taken some time....
Just doing my own shoot out here, Prism Maselec MEA-2 (both current version 7 and the previous version 6, totally different sound), GML 9500, Manley Mini Massive, SPL PQ, Gyraf arriving tomorrow .... Buzz units were due here some time ago but delayed.... Don't think I'll bother waiting for it this time around.
Keep posting your findings, it should be interesting.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by sabian

Hey Matt,
this has taken some time....
Just doing my own shoot out here, Prism Maselec MEA-2 (both current version 7 and the previous version 6, totally different sound), GML 9500, Manley Mini Massive, SPL PQ, Gyraf arriving tomorrow .... Buzz units were due here some time ago but delayed.... Don't think I'll bother waiting for it this time around.
Keep posting your findings, it should be interesting.

That should be interesting... though I wish the Buzz would make it in time to be in the line up.

[macc]

I am properly looking forward to tomorrow

I wish the Buzz could be there too, but never mind... I'll cope

[Riccardo]

Well in an ideal world I would add the Knif to the party. And to be super slutzy a pair of Pulse Techniques EQP-1A3

[MattGray]

Originally Posted by Radiance

This does not make sense...generaly speaking a transformer is on the input and output of a device (sometimes intestage as well) and does not care whether the circuit is an EQ or a compression circuit.What you're really saying is that somehow most EQ's you've heard had transformers in them you did NOT like and somehow most compressors had transformers you DID like...

Actually part of my reason for saying this is due to a balancing mod I did for a pair of API550M's that I have. The original units were unbalanced in & balanced out with API's 2520's. After putting some very expensive Lundahl transformers on the input to balance the input I've noticed that the bass & low mids aren't as tight or clean as the the original transformerless unbalanced input.

Also people here seem to be preferring the sound of the Manley Massive Passive's unbalanced output in order to bypass the output transformers.

In my very untechnical way of explaining why this could happen (for the API 550M's at least) is that the transformers are adding a slight amount of harmonic distortion (some actually find this nice). So when the low end is boosted you're effectively bringing out these harmonics by boosting the lower frequencies & perhaps the phase shift of the EQ also messes with the harmonics even more?

On the flip side it's mellowed out the high end somewhat, while it's not as clean & focused, it definitely sounds smoother which is often preferred on the high mids/high frequencies depending on what's required of the EQ for any given track. Ideally I'd like to keep the high end of the transformers & the cleaner/tighter sound of the transformerless input. Not sure how that could be done transparently though...

I'll also test out the Massive Passive transformer & transformerless output on the demo unit I've got in at the moment. I'll report back on my findings here after I've had some time to thoroughly review each unit. The Mini Massive I've got in also has 3 output options iron,vintage & transformerless so I can also report my findings on these as well.

The good news is that the Buzz Audio REQ-2.2 Mastering Version with Elma switches will be arriving this week so I'll really focus on reviewing that unit thoroughly.

More soon...

Matt

Probably just a personal taste thing

[MattGray]

Originally Posted by sabian

Hey Matt,
this has taken some time....
Just doing my own shoot out here, Prism Maselec MEA-2 (both current version 7 and the previous version 6, totally different sound), GML 9500, Manley Mini Massive, SPL PQ, Gyraf arriving tomorrow .... Buzz units were due here some time ago but delayed.... Don't think I'll bother waiting for it this time around.
Keep posting your findings, it should be interesting.

Cool, looking forward to your findings as well... I hope for your sake that you don't fall in love with the SPL PQ unless you've got a spare $14k USD.

[William Bowden]

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts Matt. You'll find the Massive interesting though I reckon - it seems to get a bit of bad press here, but I rather like it. Transformers are tricky things, they all sound different IMO, the Massive does sound different Bal/Unbal - but sometimes the trannies are useful...

Interesting to hear about my old 550M units, I'm curious to hear what you think about them vs the 5500 too. Maybe you'll mod them back!

There's a whole world of colour out there for you to explore - don't be afraid!! If you don't like colour but still want knobs, then look out for a z-sys EQ-6 or EQ-2 - it's the most boring looking box on the planet, but for surgical stuff it's amazing.

Good hunting

The King

[inlinenl]

Originally Posted by sabian

Hey Matt,
this has taken some time....
Just doing my own shoot out here, Prism Maselec MEA-2 (both current version 7 and the previous version 6, totally different sound), GML 9500, Manley Mini Massive, SPL PQ, Gyraf arriving tomorrow .... Buzz units were due here some time ago but delayed.... Don't think I'll bother waiting for it this time around.
Keep posting your findings, it should be interesting.

I really feel the maselec mea-2 ( version 6 ) shines in it's way it can shape the low-end .... I was critical to this unit , but cutting into the low-end it's amazing how it can
fix anything down < 200 HZ ..... and let's agree that's a part where you have to control a lot these days ..
sometimes you really can turn a bad sounding kick into some kick where you can distinguish the sound beautifully ...
I think that's the strong part off this EQ ...

well enjoy testing, will be interested in all your results/findings/comments ...

[Piedpiper]

Will all these demo units be well burned in, not to mentioned well warmed up when compared?

[sabian]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

I really feel the maselec mea-2 ( version 6 ) shines in it's way it can shape the low-end .... I was critical to this unit , but cutting into the low-end it's amazing how it can
fix anything down < 200 HZ ..... and let's agree that's a part where you have to control a lot these days ..
sometimes you really can turn a bad sounding kick into some kick where you can distinguish the sound beautifully ...
I think that's the strong part off this EQ ...

well enjoy testing, will be interested in all your results/findings/comments ...

Absolutely spot on! It was back in the box after 30min, hated the "tone" of it even all flat... A day before sending it back briefly played with it again, it's still here, scratching my head.... haven't bought it yet though.... Ver 7 totally different tonally.

"I hope for your sake that you don't fall in love with the SPL PQ unless you've got a spare $14k USD. "

... I already have fallen in love, immediately! You should check this out if you can! Still scratching my head... The recording version is all I'd need and a lot cheaper. Gyraf is also great, a real bargain. A public thank you to Macc for bringing it in today. .... more head-scratching.... Will elaborate more later.

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by MattGray

btw... I ended up getting an API 5500 to try out against your old API 550M's should arrive this week as well. Need to make decisions on whether to keep the Chris Muth mods or put in an added input transformer bypass option or just keep the 5500 (if I prefer how it sounds) & sell the 550M's.

I'll be interested to hear thoughts on this, too.
I assume you have a range of reference material for the tests. Does the 5500 give a 1.5dB lift when inserted into the chain, even EQ switched out?

[jdg]

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

I'll be interested to hear thoughts on this, too.
I assume you have a range of reference material for the tests. Does the 5500 give a 1.5dB lift when inserted into the chain, even EQ switched out?

no.

i hated the 5500 compared to my 550s

the input is balanced via opamp (not transformers)

i added switchable in/out trannys (jensen) on my 550s.
i usually leave the transformers in.

[MattGray]

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

I'll be interested to hear thoughts on this, too.
I assume you have a range of reference material for the tests. Does the 5500 give a 1.5dB lift when inserted into the chain, even EQ switched out?

Got the 5500 today, no it doesn't have a lift... I had the 550M's modified to remove this lift as well (pretty easy to do just a set of resistors in series).

will post back on the sound differences soon...

Matt

[macc]

Originally Posted by sabian

Absolutely spot on! It was back in the box after 30min, hated the "tone" of it even all flat... A day before sending it back briefly played with it again, it's still here, scratching my head.... haven't bought it yet though.... Ver 7 totally different tonally.

"I hope for your sake that you don't fall in love with the SPL PQ unless you've got a spare $14k USD. "

... I already have fallen in love, immediately! You should check this out if you can! Still scratching my head... The recording version is all I'd need and a lot cheaper. Gyraf is also great, a real bargain. A public thank you to Macc for bringing it in today. .... more head-scratching.... Will elaborate more later.

Very interesting stuff yesterday - totally agree about the low end usefulness of the MEA-2, but I really didn't like the revision 7 model, much preferred the 6. By the sound of it, the SPL would be the one but I reckon you'd cover a lot more ground with MEA-2 + G14. That's a majestic combination, especially with those EARs (which I am now lusting after :( ). But then, I can hear the allure of the SPL. I know what I'd be doing though...

Was also nice for me to see hear that my (beloved) G14 held its own in there, certainly could hear its tone coming through even if the monitoring (and material) was so massively different to what I'm used to.

Very enlightening stuff yesterday!

[inlinenl]

Originally Posted by macc

Very interesting stuff yesterday - totally agree about the low end usefulness of the MEA-2, but I really didn't like the revision 7 model, much preferred the 6. By the sound of it, the SPL would be the one but I reckon you'd cover a lot more ground with MEA-2 + G14. That's a majestic combination, especially with those EARs (which I am now lusting after :( ). But then, I can hear the allure of the SPL. I know what I'd be doing though...

Was also nice for me to see hear that my (beloved) G14 held its own in there, certainly could hear its tone coming through even if the monitoring (and material) was so massively different to what I'm used to.

Very enlightening stuff yesterday!

yes it's cool/good to go and see/hear someone else his microscope ...
nice change off perspective ... different mountain / different view ...

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by macc

Very interesting stuff yesterday - totally agree about the low end usefulness of the MEA-2, but I really didn't like the revision 7 model, much preferred the 6.

Very enlightening stuff yesterday!

Did you have a Sontec 430 or 432 to compare to the Maselec?

[macc]

I wish

[anguswoodhead]

Hey Matt.
Interested to see the results of your shootout.
I'm guessing the Tube Tech was out of your price range right?
Tube Tech / EQ 1AM Parametric Mastering Equalizer
Any chance I could duck in on Friday for a listen?

[sabian]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

Well in an ideal world I would add the Knif to the party. And to be super slutzy a pair of Pulse Techniques EQP-1A3

Hey Ricardo, I emailed with Jonte (Knif) quite a while ago re his Vari-Mu comp. Never got to hear any of his stuff but some friends in Finland rave about it... Any hands on experience?

OK, MEA-2 is back to where it belongs - in the shop. I'll try to explain what I'm hearing:
ver6: EQ all flat, upper mids forward, some loss of air, loss of bottom end, SSL bus comp style "up your face" flattening effect... It can be very useful if you're after this kind of effect, otherwise I found 0.5db cut @ 1k and 8-10k and some bass boost somewhat neutralizes the effect.... Still, the hardness (especially the top end) remains and I found it sounding "plastic" and "artificial" and not desirable for any kind of acoustic material imo.
On the positive side, the control is very good, especially bass and low mids, although I preferred cutting, bass boost never sounded "juicy" for example and any boost some 2k upwards just sounded too harsh for me. Very good in notching pretty much anywhere though. Ver 7: EQ flat: still mids forward but not as much, more 3D top and overall balance better retained. For some reason we both preferred the "tone" of the ver 6 though....
Having said that, the "tone" is really where it overall fails for me. Looking at it as a musician, I don't care how playable an instrument is if the tone isn't there. Which is why I own EQs with "tone" but not enough control at the mo and why that Buzz unit is really interesting. Apart from of course my most recent "love" - the PQ. More about that one later, but let's just say I had a smile on my face while working as opposed to frowning with MEA-2 while trying to work around it's "edgy" properties and occasionally grinning a bit when sort of succeeding in doing so. Not sure weather Macc was hearing the above as well but we both seemed to be happy when MEA-2 was unplugged (not just bypassed, there IS a difference).

Although I really liked the Gyraf I don't think I have the need for it with my EARs welded to my rack. So far, TONE + CONTROL = PQ. Period. BTW, I plugged in my Great River before taking MEA-2 back to compare and will really try to keep it. It's nowhere near as controllable as MEA-2 but still very very useful , especially the HPF. Sonically I really like it ( especially unbalanced), smooth, wide, 3D yet tight and controlled. Nothing "nasty" about it. Which can't be said for the GML 9500 for example... another time if anyone's interested.

Out of interest, what would you be doing Macc ? ("But then, I can hear the allure of the SPL. I know what I'd be doing though...")

It might be interesting for some to hear your impressions of MEA-2 as well ... especially if that's what "you'd be doing".

[jdg]

Originally Posted by sabian

OK, MEA-2 is back to where it belongs - in the shop. I'll try to explain what I'm hearing:
ver6: <snip>
It might be interesting for some to hear your impressions of MEA-2 as well ... especially if that's what "you'd be doing".

exactly why i sold my mea-2.
the control was amazing.. but it just didn't work with the way i hear.
can't fault anyone for loving it tho.. its not unlike a lexus